SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I honestly forgot I had it.

snort! REALLY?

This is the Hail Mary play they do when busted. It's horrific. They tell you all the things you want to hear. They "own up."

But if you give them enough rope they hang.

She gilded the lily with that whopper.

She's manipulating you. Don't believe any of it for a second. I promise you she's also in contact with OMs and probably a lawyer to boot. She wants you off guard while she fucks you over.

She is MIRRORING to you. NPDs do this masterfully.

Be careful!!!

(Btw, I'm a she, not a he. Thanks for the vote of confidence tho.)

I'm sorry. Not what you want to hear. But really -- the best she can do is KEEP HER FROM PHONES?

Yeah, that's her problem. She needs 12-step to keep her from errant text messaging. Unreal the shit they come up with.

Oh while she's in a generous mood, get her to recant the abuse allegations via email. DOCUMENT.

Hello Cannon

I hate to see you going through this craziness. I am not going to pretend to know what is best for anyone, but if there was a time for a hard ass 180....this is it. Lawyer up hard and 180 her into the the ground. Be strong....I strongly suspect she isn't going to be going anywhere. It sounds like she needs a massive amount of professional help.

Hi Cannon,

Has she always been like this? Holy crap, my head is swimming.

I worry about a woman who seems so unstable caring for young children. If she is drinking and using bipolar meds and cycling so quickly, that is a recipe for disaster, in my opinion.

I hope you can extricate yourself from this situation so that you may find some peace. But the kids, good God, I worry about those kids.

Take care.

Brother, the drinking thing is huge. Note the alternatives - stop drinking or cut down. That is pure alcoholic speak. Is she making any moves to get with AA? Is she seeking medical help? Probably not, I'm guessing.

Let me suggest something. Instead of assuming that she is lying and manipulating (although she very well may be), have her move out. Hold on the D paperwork until you are sure that she is not willing to heal herself. Until then, your MO should be that she has every reason to prove to you that she is no longer drinking and really really wants to come home. You can be friendly, civil, etc. But the effort of fixing this is totally on her. And it starts with active participation in alcohol treatment PLUS (and here is a wild idea) she doesn't just deactivate her account, she doesn't use the net at all unless to communicate with you, her business or health care providers. Same with her cell phone.

Look, I doubt she will ever make it. She reminds me too much of the woman I told you about a few weeks ago. Many people with drug or alcohol problems never recover, even in prison. But hell, you never know. I think you will be better off without this crazy in your life, but obviously it's your call. Do the 180, put out your line in the sand, and see what happens. You got nothing to lose by being somewhat magnanimous here. As long as she gets the hell out while she does the work.

Shattered, it hasn't always been this bad throughout our marriage, but since kid #3 has been born it's been worse, and the last two years have been horrific.

And the thought has crossed my mind to stick around for the well being of my kids (in the sense that WW may not be in a place to do that on her own)

It's been hard today. She's walking around the house like a zombie, alternately crying and spacing out.

I don't mean to get on everones nerves with these updates, but it helps to have a place to come and vent.

Cannon,

Holy Shit!! I just got caught up on your thread.

I am so, so, so sorry for you and your children.

I don't know your WW, but even I don't believe a word out of her mouth!! But she does seem to follow the WS's excuses, and "oh NOW I've seen the light". Really?? How can she when she hasn't learned one thing??

She has more issues than any layman can help her with.

I agree with all the others who say: SHUT HER DOWN!! 180 all the way, and get the barracuda of all lawyers.

You are a strong guy, and a great dad. Go with those two and you will come out of this OK.

Hugs to you and kids.

Cannon, I am so sorry for what you are going through.

These people have given you such good advice. You need to be strong because it will be natural for you to want to hold on to her, protect her and feel guilty at times for her illness, regardless of how crap she is treating you.

You have to stick to your plan, let her go to her own place, let her family take care of her and force her to heal herself. Until you posted about the secret phone I thought there may be a chance for you to work this out but after finding that and reading the last manipulative email, I have changed my mind.

You cannot work toward R with her like this. She has no boundries and she lies and manipulates.

Be strong Cannon, you have such support here. Don't look at the big picture and worry about the 'what if's and the rest of your life. You don't know what is around the corner or how things will pan out long term.

Look at here and now. You are being ripped apart and your children need you to bring calm back to their life for a while. Stay in that house and follow your plan. Let her go to the new place and get your lawyer on the case.

Sending you positive thoughts and vibes Cannon

Cannon,

Listen to Squiffle. TRUST US. No good will come of this, I promise. I see a future of false charges and trumped up BS in your future if you do not step up and make the change NOW. TODAY.

Get the bulldog. Seriously. You could lose everything. Look at the things she's said about you, and that is only what you can see. What is she saying to others? This could get out of control so fast--please, lawyer up, go NC. You won't regret it.

((Cannon))

double post

[This message edited by squiffle at 3:53 PM, June 27th (Monday)]

Cannon,

Go get "Codependent No More," okay? Read it. It will really help you.

I stormed inside, so angry that I couldnt talk without yelling. She came back in and was very apologetic, again taking ownership for fucking everything up and saying that she's mostly angry at herself and that shed always love me. Then she started cuddling me and making me promise not to hate her as she was crying.

Do you see the dynamic? When she realizes that she has pushed you too far, she reels you back in with the cuddling and the "I'm sorry" dance. But the angry shit? Cannon -- she means that. The selfish statements of grandiose entitlement? She MEANS that. That is how they think. When she senses that you are connecting the dots on that and getting ANGRY about it -- she goes into high manipulation mode. Says shit you want to hear. Makes promises. Cries. Deflects. Offers sex.

The addiction issues? Addicts are liars. They are manipulators. Ask a former addict, they'll tell you. (My brother is one. Sober now 6 years in NA.)

The BEST thing you can do for her is help her hit bottom and stop enabling her, cleaning up her messes and believing in her potential.

You need to get smart about this whole codependent thing you're doing. It's not helping -- it's HURTING. We've been there.

Get strong for your kids. Go for custody. Get that pitbull lawyer and you document EVERYTHING.

NC and 180 are SOOO important! Because you take away her tools to manipulate you.

If she is sincere about any of those promises she will move out and start the work on herself REGARDLESS of what you do. REGARDLESS. It has to come from HER. It cannot be about wanting to save the M, or her ass, or whatever.

Actions. Not words. ACTIONS.

So you, Cannon, you save yourself. And you save those kids. And you show them that this is not how healthy families exist.

I know you want to save her. But you can't. It's very painful. Save yourself. Please keep your eyes wide open -- she is going to lie, lie, lie to get what she wants.

Shit cannon, she's still playing you! Unless i misunderstood she has a house to move into? Did she say she'll be out of your place by the 8th? Say the word and i'll come down there and have her moved out into the driveway in 8 minutes! She's stalling and then texting you the words she knows you want top hear!

She'll stop or "cut down" on her drinking? ah...right!

More BS. Alchohol lowers inhibitions. It allows WHAT'S INSIDE TO COME OUT! Key words are WHAT'S INSIDE! She's a head case man! Get the F...out while you still have your sanity! Or... she'll drag you to the depths of hell on earth!

JUST MY OPINION!

Well, effing eff eff.

I fill like I'm living in a movie.

She's set a time, 11:30 tomorrow, to sign the lease to renew the rental for a year. I know in my heart if she does this, it's done. No R, no "working on it", no separation, it's over.

On the other hand, she's been incredibly understating as of late. I printed out the long document from here about "What your betrayed spouse is feeling" and "the difference between remorse and regret" and she read those. Here's her latest email to me (about 30 minutes ago):

Although I haven't witnessed you displaying all the emotions mentioned in the article you shared, I'm sure you are feeling them. You keep your feelings so tucked away that you can be hard to read. Perhaps you aren't feeling those emotions to the same degree as the article suggested, but I know you are deeply and horribly hurt by my mistakes. I know that it will take time to heal and that there may be sudden changes in your mood and willingness to work through the damage. I don't know if you've identified the triggers that the article suggested but if you have I would like to know what they are so I can understand and help you through those times. I'm terribly sorry for what I've done to you and this family. The article suggested that the cheating spouse figure out what made them stray. That is the work I've been doing in my head and I know why I did what I did. For me that piece is clear now. I know that I have to put new habits in place and make changes that will ensure this never happens again. I have thought about ways to do that. I need to put pieces of that plan into practice but most importantly we need to focus on you. I asked what you needed from me and I think printing that article and sharing it with me was your way of answering that.. I love you and want to support you in this journey to heal. If you had cheated on me I'd be torn between wanting to kick you out and wanting to fix the marriage. I'd have a million factors running through my head and I'd be calculating those factors until it made me sick to think about it anymore and then I'd recalculate over and over knowing that the answer I get each time could be different thus causing more confusion and frustration. It might be a good idea for you to have some alone time today....go out and have lunch/a drink.....walk around town or campus. I can watch the kids all day. Most importantly please know that I will always love you and I love you more now because I see that you are at least considering reconciliation. That means a lot to me and draws me closer to you.

Here was one from yesterday:

"Cannon" I love you with all that I am and the thought of losing you is tearing me to pieces. I know that I brought this all on myself and I take responsibility for it, but the past couple of days have been huge breakthroughs for me in terms of understanding how we got to this point. I know the work and the road to recovery would be tough but I also know that we can make it.. I know that you still love me but you are angry and disgusted with me. I stole our life but I'm trying to bring it back. One article that I read yesterday say that couples who recovery from infidelity are actually stronger after recovery than they were before the affair even happened. That's because they are forced to look at the weaknesses in the relationship that led to infidelity and they build a relationship with absolutely no secrets. I know that we can rebuild our relationship. I feel like I not only owe it to the kids but I owe it to you. Please give me a chance to make it up to you and show you that I now know what I have to do. I'll gladly do away with this fb account altogether and we can continue our discussion through email. I've just started imagining a life without you as my husband and I HATE that life. I hate it for me and I hate it for the kids. I want us to all be here together and it's not because I'm scared of being alone, it's because I'm scared of losing the best thing that ever happened to me. I took you for granted and I abused your love for me over and over. I am willing to send personal messages and let them know that I misrepresented you.....that you are a good man. The article yesterday talked about compensating for the affair. I would do anything you asked to compensate for what I've done wrong. I just need one more chance. I prayed to God this morning that you would give me one more chance and I asked for his guidance in making that one chance work. I know I can do this and I feel like you can too. The pilot lights are still there...I know yours is burning too. I can feel that it is. I want the family unit..trips to the cabin as a family, picnic nights watching the (band) practice, tailgaiting as a family, birthday parties for our kids as a family, but I also want you. I want to learn more about you. I took a quiz yesterday as part of this series of articles I'm reading and it showed me that I don't know enough about you. I want to completely know you and I haven't done that because I've been focused on myself so much. I'm ready to be selfless and I didn't know all of that until yesterday. I thought maybe that clarity came too late, but it's not too late. We can make this work again. Again, the work will be hard but our relationship will be stronger than it was before. . I've already turned inward and done some of that work on my own and I know what I have to do. I'm just asking for one more chance to use what I now know to make this work. I don't want time with you to be just a series of memories that I store in my head. I want time with you to be something I wake up and look forward to each and every day because I'm the lucky girl who once won your heart.

My reply:

I believe you believe all this now, but again it seems part of a pattern that we go through. How will I know this time would be different? What about all the things you said during our argument Sunday (I said some hurtful things too, but I'm not the one asking for another chance)? Again-put yourself in my situation. What do you think you would do? I really like your ideas for making things up, and I have a couple of my own if we go that route.

And her reply to that:

This time will be different because I know what i have to do on my end to make it work. I know I said some hateful things. I was angry. I just want a chance, one more chance, to make it up to you. I've finally been doing some reading and so much of what I was doing makes sense. It was a pattern, but these articles have plans for breaking those patterns. It is all making sense to me now. I think we need to read some of these articles together and talk. I need to know more about you and know what kinds of things I can give you as a wife. I need to know what you want from me. I've spent years telling you what I need or want and I failed to ask you what you need from me. I don't have it all figured out, but I want to try one more time...that's all. I will never, ever be in contact with those guys ever again. I've pulled my name out of these future races just because (OM#2) "might" run them. I don't want to even risk running into him. I won't go to (best friend's) parties anymore since he might be at them. I don't know what else to say. I don't know how to make you understand that I've hit a critical point of understanding where I went wrong and I want to make it up to us

As you can see, there's some real understanding there about the situation (or seems to be). It's really hard to consider kicking someone out when you get this and lots of "I love yous" and hugs during the day. I think about not seeing my kids half of their lives, not having time to spend with them like I would love to do...not being able to have special one-on-one time with them, not being able to take them to the beach anymore or sign them up for classes or activities (due to lack of money), moving from the only house they know. It's tough, man. Really tough.

If I did stay, it would be 100% for the kids now, and maybe these "breakthroughs" can help us salvage something from our marriage down the road. Should I let these two years define 11 marriage years, or 16 years of a relationship?

But then I think about the drama and tumult I've been through since 2009 and I get angry and just...exhausted again.

I just hate that I've been put in this position to make such a huge, huge decision...and I have about 24 hours to make it.

Thanks again for letting me vent. I know some of you may be angry with me for even considering this, but it's honestly where I am right now.

What thread will provide the soap opera drama after this one's over (though it will never beat "As Chopping Onions turns" )

Dear Cannon,

This has always been about giving advice and deciding what is best for yourself. Please do not apologize for considering such a major life decision. It is your choice.

My FWH has been reading a book to me called "The Shack." In it, a man who has been through the loss of his young daughter meets personally with God. God tells him that He knows the ultimate outcome of our lives. If it takes 47 chances for someone to do the right thing, God rejoices in each of the 46 failures, because He knows that ultimately, that person will turn around and do what is right.

So do what you think is best and live your life. We are all just hoping for the best for you. Take care.

I have been following your story. I have to admit to some skepticism about your W's sincerity given the history. However her message is truly what you would want to hear. Truth is-- I never heard anything that eloquent from mine. So if she can follow thru and live up to her words, you would definitely have an excellent chance at a good solid R.

But I can sense that you are really torn here because you WANT to believe but you FEAR that if you believe she will just turn on you again.

This is my advice; the way I would look at it. If I tell her don't sign the lease; I will give you one more chance -- I am taking a real risk of once again opening my heart to another devastation.

If I tell her "just go", that I am done I will become a part time parent only and a year from now, 5 years from now I will be looking back and asking myself -- I wonder if she would have changed. I wonder if I could have stayed with my children and found a W returning to the person I originally fell in love with.

I wonder .......

Now I am probably too soft hearted or soft headed or both, but I don't like living with regrets about what might have been if only I had had the resolve to take a certain action.

That is why I stayed. If it had happened again I would have D with no further discussion. I would have been devastated again, but I would have recovered and I would not have those aching, lingering regrets about what might have been if only I had given her that one more chance.

That's just me and my view might not be the right one for you. But don't go about feeling you have to be a "tough guy" just to please people here. Do what is right for you.

You know Cannon, my XWH did this. Wrote tons of heartfelt, one more chance, kinda missives. He had three different identities on SI. Posted in Wayward. Go look up the profile for Chemistry101 and read his "profile." Same kinda bullshit of how sorry and he gets it now.

He never stopped cheating. He's disordered.

You can spend a lifetime trying to figure it out -- what's real with these people, what's not. I think all their truth is SITUATIONAL. Maybe she means all that, right now, as she's writing it. And then she gets to drinking or fucking an OM and she got another situational truth. She means it THEN. And then THEN changes.

What strikes me about all that waffle -- is it's vague. It's real light on specifics. And lots of "I see the pattern" (what pattern?) "I get it" (get what?" And it's full of subtle blameshifting -- you don't seem as broken up as you should be, she can't read how upset you are, but she imagines you are, because you gave her that letter. WTF?! I see that as a gee, are you gonna fight for me?

Cake eaters love that shit.

Obviously, I'm cynical. Deeply cynical about a) your WW's sincerity and b) could she do the hard work.

I say let her move out and improve herself, on her own steam, and you move on with your life. See what she does to win YOU back.

It's all just talk. She does talk very well. Mine did too.

Canon,

She's set a time, 11:30 tomorrow, to sign the lease to renew the rental for a year. I know in my heart if she does this, it's done. No R, no "working on it", no separation, it's over.

Why would it be over? Is it because you don't think she would fight for you?

It's tough, because you obviously want to save your marriage. But I believe that subconsciously you don't think that she can do it.

The only way to know if she can save the marriage is to let her try. But if you think that the M is over if she goes---is she really trying?

It is your life. All we have is a one sided snapshot of your married life. You are the one who knows her best---we are the ones who are telling you our real life experiences around infidelity...and its patterns.

No matter what, don't compromise any of your principles. NOT ONE BIT. These are part of the moral compass that will lead you from infidelity.

Good luck. Let us know if she stays or goes.

[This message edited by jb3199 at 7:44 PM, June 29th (Wednesday)]

Well, how's everyone? Anyone like an update?

Well, the last I posted about a week ago, I was deciding whether or not WW was going to sign the lease or not. That afternoon, I wrote this letter to her to explain to her how I was feeling:

OK. Here are some of my thoughts, as best as I can capture and articulate them at this time. Again, I’m trying to be as honest as possible. I sincerely apologize (not being sarcastic) if some of this upsets or offends you:

Staying together now would almost be completely for the kids (and for financial stability for the kids) at this time. I know I have feelings for you, but it may take some time for them to come back to a somewhat normal place. You may not be able to deal with this, and if you can’t, I do understand. You have to be prepared for some of those emotions that you read about in that article yesterday. Can you do that? Don’t just tell yourself “Yes”. Can you really deal with occasional, out-of-the-blue anger or sadness? Will that cause you to bolt to the comfort of someone else again?

Here are some, for lack of a better term, “conditions” I was thinking of:

-continue marital counseling for us and begin regular individual counseling for you

-continue talking meds regularly is a must

-address the drinking. It doesn’t need to be cut out, but addressed

-I’m not sure about facebook. I know it’s valuable to keep in touch with people. I wouldn’t ask you to delete that, but it’s a concern

-I would like to see, as you suggested, a correction to some of the people to whom you mischaracterized me.

-This one may be hard…I’d like to meet with your parents and air all this out. Not to “tell” on you, but I really need someone else to know the extent of what’s been going on. Your parents can provide another level of support for you and for us if we continue as a couple.

-I’d like to know what the “changes” you’ve alluded to will look like – specifically. Not just nebulous stuff like you’ve said in your messages, but how will you really change your interactions with me and the family? I wouldn’t use this as a checklist to throw in your face if something doesn’t happen, but I need to see more evidence of your thought and specifics than just “this time will be different”

That’s what’s going in my head right now. Again, I know some of this may sound bad, but I’m being honest. As I said before, please think if this is something you are really capable of doing and won’t be thrown away in a few months at which point we go back into some bad marital habits (that’s both of us, by the way)

I gave this to her as I left that evening to take DS#1 to his swim meet. I was about halfway there when I started getting texts.

When I got home we had a pretty big blowup. She said that the first part of the letter indicated "no hope" to her, and was a big "fuck you" to her. I had to laugh and went through about ten or twelve "fuck yous" that I've experienced over that last couple years. I told her that despite anything we talked about, her response overall showed me that she was not going to be able to do the "dirty work" that a R might entail. She also kept harping on the fact that "her feelings weren't being considered" at this time, to which I kept replying "Damn right they're not".

We went to bed angry and pretty sure it was over. Then she wore up crying the next morning and said "I don't want to sign the lease. I want to be with you". So, I said OK, and that was that.

The past week has been really nice. We had a good holiday weekend with her side of the family in the mountains, and we were getting along really well.

Two days ago, this Wednesday, I helped her move the last bit of stuff from her rental back home. I wasn't too happy having to do it and she recognized this, but we had a couple of drinks at a bar, just us, yesterday and talked it out. Still seems like things are going well.

So, last night I meet my work friends for our regular movie night. I am able to check her facebook from my phone, so I start spying. She's back to shit talking me to friends and reestablished contact with OM#2.

Some highlights:

I didn't see her first message to OM#2, but his first response back to her started with, "You don't have to apologize to me, you're doing what's best for your family". He indicated he didn't like what was going on, but he'd always be there for her, yada yada. She also said that I "go out all the time" now, and "won't let her" because she "Can't be trusted" (Not true - she just doesn't have any friends to go out with). He told her that I was trying to control her and that I was "Evil" for doing it and that "(He) just hasn't been caught yet".

She told another dude (possible OM#3 mentioned earlier) that I "choke her in (my) sleep" to which he advised that she get proof of my "abuse" and nail me with it.

Here's a new good one too - she was emailing with some chick I don't know and said I was just drinking and eating and getting bigger and bigger (I'm 39, 5-10 and weigh 180 I could stand to lose a few, but I'm not huge). She said she gets compliments all the time because she still looks good for her age (and she does...) and works hard at keeping up her looks (not so, she is a runner, but she's blessed with an incredible metabolism (she's 5-8 and about 110). She eats at least as much as me and drinks 10x the beer I do in a week).

I also saw a conversation between her and a gril from her hometown that knew OM#1 really well and WW seemed to indicate that he called her a "head case" and ran out of her life after she was on her own.

I got home last night and just acted normal. When we went to bed, she asked if something was bothering me because I seemed upset. I said no, and then she sexually attacked me (and, as I've said before, I'm not turning it down )

This morning she's been all flowers and rainbows, like nothing's wrong (and as far as she knows, nothing is...).She was really physical and cuddly when we woke up, and she has frequently touched me and kissed me today (some guilt?)

It's a crazy, crazy ride, man. I'll tell you what, I'm not even mad or upset at this point; it's almost funny or amusing to me, if that makes sense. She's so off her rocker that I can't take it seriously anymore.

Here's the current rub...we have a counseling appointment next Monday. I wonder if I should bring this up now or drop the bomb on her in front of the MC. Complicating things, we are taking a family beach vacation next Tuesday, and the kids are really excited. Maybe I should not say anything and just play along for the kids and vacation's sake. Any big argument we have before then (especially the day before we go) could ruin thing for them, and I'd hate that.

All in all, don't worry about 'ol Cannon. I got this. I can play this game as long as I need to. I'm holding the cards now, and have been for a while. Shit's going to be on my terms now and for the foreseeable future, or it just ain't gonna "be"

Take the damn computer out of your house. Its like your married to Sybil.

Hi Cannon,

She also kept harping on the fact that "her feelings weren't being considered"

Incredible. Your wife has absolutely no humility.

You know, sometimes it takes time to wrap your head around a plan for your future. Take your time, and do what is best for you. Good luck.