SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

There is a lot of good advice here. Let me just give you a personal story.

My BIL was married to a real drama queen, someone that was really good looking, and when she was sane, very rational and fun to be around. But she was volatile and unpredictable and would engage in really bad behavior on a fairly regular basis. Most of his friends had cut him off as they could not deal with her. Against every signal out there, they chose to have two kids. Things never improved and after much pain and expense they Ded when the kids were still quite young. He married a "normal" woman and has been spending time with split custody since. I ran into his ex just a few days ago after 10 years. She has remarried and is putting her H thru a living hell. He has moved in and out several times, and she recently ran thru a small inheritance he got after his dad died. She was covered in tats (this is a 50 year old), with a nose ring, had gained 70 pounds, was still dressed like a hooker and even looked crazy as a wood rat.

Here is the point, with one normal parent the kids are doing fine. He has given them a stable place. If he had stayed with his ex, everyone I know is convinced he would be dead or in prison now.

Your story screamed the same to me. You owe your WW the opportunity to try, not the opportunity to keep you on a string until you decompensate or your kids end up in a bad place. Unfortunately, I see you going down the latter road. You really need to rethink this. She tells you one thing and does another, gets caught and says she is sorry and jumps in bed for you. You gotta know this isn't the way to go about R.

Cannon,

She needs to:

- Delete her facebook profile and all other online profiles

- Agree to computer use only when you are around (for now)

- Go see a psychiatrist immediately and start taking meds

- See a psychologist and start digging in her emotions to see why she is so broken

- stop ALL alcohol and drug use (terrible for a BP person)

- Create healthy sleep patterns. BPs need very consistent sleep and routines.

- NC with all OM (come on!!)

- Both should read books on: Bipolar disorder & Affairs

- all phone/computer password and any program/social network you don't like is deleted. And no deleting of history or message ever without you agreeing.

- You need to keep the divorce mediation agreement firmly in place until this is done and holding up for a few months.

Then you both need to start MC. There is just NO WAY you can deal with a BP person without a very good psychologist. Don't even try it or you will be back here in a few years like I am with more As.

And you need to work carefully on a backup plan for you and the kids. Keep refining it even if things seem to be going ok. You need to be ready to walk with your kids when she repeats this.

Some of the things a BP person has to do, they have to do for LIFE. BP cycles. It comes back unless you lead a very disciplined, structured life that minimizes stress.

Best of luck to you.

I know very well the nightmare you are living right now.

She just. Doesn't. Get it.

Man, we talked again last tonight, and she said she can't live in an enviromnet like the one I painted tonight night, which was basically: you have to be prepared for me to be really angry at times.

I told her that it sounds like she still can't "get" what she's done here and that I have a righ tot be mad sometimes (I also said that's what counseling is for).

She said "it sounds like you may never get over this", to which I replied "I might not".

I told her I'm just not getting the "vibe" I need from her that indicates real remorse. To me, it's only happened once, and I found out later that week that she was still emailing OM#2. She says she's in a "numb" stage and is trying to prepare herself for what might be a divorce outcome. I told her that if I were in her situation and wanted to repair the marriage, I would be solicitous to a fault and begging for an opportunity to show myself worthy, not be "bugged" that my spouse has to spy on me. Geez

I told her she should probably go ahead and move out. She just doesn't seem to understand the devastation she's caused.

Finally, I told her she's playing the C/WS role to a T and dropped some terms: truth trickling, gaslighting, the fog, rationalization, etc. She got pretty mad at that. Good job, SI :)

I'm sure my drama isn't over (you guys can see this is a pattern), but it's exploded right now.

I am sorry you are going through it all, Cannon. I really think you need to just kick her out and go No Contact with her. It won't kill her, nor you. It can serve to strengthen you and will cut out the drama. When my WH begins to act like I am bothering him about the affair (you know, asking questions, wanting to see his email, phone, etc.) I know he is falling back into the pattern of assholiness. It is then that I should know he isn't remorseful and I should stop playing the back and forth game with him. You won't get any answers you are hoping for at this point, with her in this state of Me, Me, ME...

Read up on the 180, and do it. Now.

Just like I thought, there's more to it today.

She sent a couple of texts this morning apologizing, and I sent her a message with a link to what a betrayed spouse feels (sometimes when we're arguing we find it easier to just exchange messages)

Here's the response I got this morning (I feel a little weird sending this out, but I trust this community and no one knows us from Adam's housecat on here, so):

I read the link and I can see why you are responding the way you are now. I understand it a little more. I DO feel bad and I do cry (quite a lot).....at night when you are asleep, in my car....I feel aweful but I feel like what you are wanting from me is not a sign or showing of compassion and regret but a sign that I am hurting because you are hurting and you want to make sure that I feel bad too. I DO feel bad and I have felt bad for years now....now I just feel 100 times worse. It makes sense that I would go looking for some type of emotional attachment to someone or something. At least that's what the link suggested. I've been hurting for years now and having someone pay attention to me was a quick fix...it wasn't the right fix as it just caused a multitude of more problems but it's why I did what I did. I love you and honestly felt a connection to you from the first time I met you in ***. I'm constantly drawn back to you. You and the kids are all that I have that's really positive and it all started with you. I can't imagine breaking up this family because we work so well together as a team, but we can't stay together just for the kids. I need more than that and you deserve better than that. I can see (my best friend's) point of few but he's thinking like a business man. Our family is not a business it is our LIFE. It's a life that we've been creating for ourselves for the past 16 years. I DO admit that I crave attention and affection. Since we've had kids, I've felt less and less of that and have been starving for it again.. I found it in the wrong places and I not only hurt you but I've hurt this entire family. I acknowledge all of that and I own every piece of it. I'm not blaming you for anything and I think you assume that my tracing how we got to where we are is a way of blaming you. i would never blame you for this. I've just been retracing my steps to find out how "good girl "WW" came to be "this person". I don't even know myself anymore. I'm lost in a false world right now and I'm quite honestly scared. I'm not scared of being alone...I'm scared of what I'm becoming. I just want the old me back....the me before I got pregnant with (third kid). I've tried to do everything you've asked for the past few days. I've cut off contact with (OM#2) completely, I emailed (OM#1) back and told him not to ever email me again....not even to check in on me, I've given you passcodes and passwords (although I've noticed that you've locked your phone now) my note - yay for the 180!. I feel like you want to find pleasure in watching me suffer....almost like you need revenge or a payback. We can't rebuild a relationship based on laying blame or seeking revenge. Neither of us is perfect and we've both made mistakes along the way....admittedly my mistakes are far, far worse. I am well aware of that. I'm perfectly aware of how bad it is. The bottom line is that I want to be with you and our family but I felt last night like you were sentencing me to a life of unhappiness almost like you were threatening to make my life as miserable as you possibly could for the next few years because you want to make me "pay" for what I've done. We can't make it that way. There is a lot of anger and pain on both ends...we just got angry and hurt by different things. A lot of my anger comes from acknowledging my own mistakes but the way to make this work is not to constantly remind me of what a horrible person I am....remember, even as the article suggested, a person who cheats often does so because they feel bad about themselves in the first place. To ensure that i feel even worse is a step in the wrong direction. We have to work through the pain, the betrayal and the anger but pointing fingers at each other and wishing each other harm is not the way to work through it. That's why I agree that counseling is a good next step...and we have several steps to take, but we can't push each other down the staircase in the process....we have to walk together and try to take each step together....that's what healing is. Again, I'm NOT blaming you for anything....I'm not pointing fingers...I'm just expressing how I feel, where I am and what I'm willing to do.

Does that sound like someone remorseful and someone who could R? I'm honestly asking, not being facetious now.

Yes it does. Maybe baby steps but steps in the right direction none the less. Good Luck

...

[This message edited by seeker2010 at 11:03 AM, July 10th (Sunday)]

the way to make this work is not to constantly remind me of what a horrible person I am

Yeah, that would be a bummer.

She is a total mindfuck. That letter she wrote you is ALL ABOUT HER. Her pain, her issues, what a victim she is.

Just because she throws you some line about owning her shit, doesn't mean she is actually doing that.

She's a manipulative POS who has zero remorse. You really need some IC to deal with why you're still trying here. Boundaries! 180! Read in the healing library!

Her response is a start, but I could post that after reading something just because it is easy to repeat what something has said.

What she doesn't get is that you aren't going to be ok instantly and that neither will your M. Recovery takes 2-5 years and TT and other WS behavior can make it longer. She needs to know that this is a long process.

I would say, step in the right direction but she hasn't moved forward yet.

I still say monitor her ass to see what happens. She may go quiet for a week or two until she thinks you have backed off.

I am slightly disturbed how she repeatedly refers to you being angry at her and how she doesn't feel that you should harp on it. She seems to feel like she doesn't deserve all that anger (when she says about you "making her pay for what she had done". Damn right you should make her pay. This hits a sore spot for me because my BS keeps saying that he's angry too and that I need to put my anger aside so we can work things out. I believe that we BS need to be able to express that anger a lot because there is no way we can move on without getting it out. They have done this to US! So I hate hearing the "poor me" and martyr tack from WS and I hear it a bit from your WS. But I'm no expert and that just might be one of my hot buttons. Just don't let her use your anger as a weapon of her defense. You are RIGHT to be angry -- and she needs to pay for the pain she caused.

Me - BS 41

Him - WS 42

A of 8 months with 27 yr old subordinate

3 kids under 5

Trial separation in 2 weeks but still working on things -- need to get him out of his fog!

((((Cannon))))

Does that sound like someone remorseful and someone who could R?

In a word - NO.

How many times does she say 'I' and 'me' in her letter?? Complain about your anger, about 'making her pay'?

It's all about *HER*, it's all about her not having any *REAL* consequences about what *SHE* has done to your M.

So no, I don't see this as sounding remorseful and in the R mindset. (I've been sucked in by this kind of crap, that's why I've been in limbo for 2 1/2 years - believe me you don't want this.)

You said it yourself:

She just. Doesn't. Get it.

Man, we talked again last tonight, and she said she can't live in an enviromnet like the one I painted tonight night, which was basically: you have to be prepared for me to be really angry at times.

Squiffle is right on, read and re-read that post.

I know it's hard, and that you WANT to believe. But this is NOT a good starting point.

I'm so sorry, I know it's not how you want things to go.

((((Cannon))))

Hey cannon----go back and read that letter, as if you were an uninvolved third party, a fly on the wall so to speak-----tell me if I am wrong---she wants this swept under the rug, as soon as possible---she wants to go back to before she destroyed everything, have you just ignore, that she treated you like a POS

Your wife needs to be SELFLESS---that letter was nothing but SELFISH!!!!!!

I agree with others that her note has a lot of I's and me's in it. I also agree that she is wanting to rugsweep. Having acknowledged that, though, I think her note contains some positives and offers some hope for a true R.

The main positives are that she acknowledges that the A was not your fault and that she owns the blame for it. Many WWs never get there.

Se also acknowledges the pain you have and the devastation she has cause. I doubt that she really understands the true depth, but she at least has started that learning process. Many never get it and think you should be able to just shrug it off.

She is accepting of the need for counseling. That is a positive that many never accept.

Thre are still some hard truths for you. She appears to be very much "it's all about me" and in need of a lot of attention. That may very well never change despite IC. It has never changed with my W - it still is always about her. So you have to decide if you could live with that aspect of her personality for the rest of your years if she gets the rest of her mind right. If you can't then you need to think about moving on.

Also, she will seriously push to just sweep it under the rug and will fight you - indeed, probably challenge/threaten you - if you don't agree. You can't give in on this one. I did (there was nothing like SI as a support tool 25 years ago) and seriously regret that I did.

This is not to say that you use discussing the A as a means of punishment or torture. That would be wrong and counter-productive. But you need to insist that she will talk and answer your questions and take the mystery and uncertainty about things out of your mind. You will need that to heal enough for a good R to occur.

I do agree with her that if a couple is to R, there can't be ongoing punishment or efforts to deliberately make the WS feel belittled or depressed. Not saying you are or would- just a general opinion. Also, while the WW definitely has to help you heal, I think the BS also needs to try, to the extent that he can, to help the WS heal. There has to be positive re-enforcement given to the WS (when it is earned) to give hope and show that there is hope for a future.

I think her note shows promise. So the question now is whether the note is from her heart and soul or just a regurgitation of what she has read here and thinks you need to hear. And that is where actions truly speak louder than words. Now is the time for her to start proving by actions what her words are saying. You need to tell her that and let her know you appreciate the words but will base your actions and decisions on what she does rather than what she says. She needs to know that.

Final thing. Find "what every WS needs to know" posted by HUFI in the Wayward forum. Give her that to read. It will deepen her understanding of what you are going thru and will yet encounter.

She appears to be very much "it's all about me" and in need of a lot of attention. That may very well never change despite IC. It has never changed with my W - it still is always about her. So you have to decide if you could live with that aspect of her personality for the rest of your years if she gets the rest of her mind right. If you can't then you need to think about moving on.

Yes. I'm not going to allow her to make it about her and why she did this. I'm so far from being self-centered that it's crazy, but I will be self centered here.

I know she's a very self centered person. I can deal with that, but not if this is the way it's handled.

Also, she will seriously push to just sweep it under the rug and will fight you - indeed, probably challenge/threaten you - if you don't agree. You can't give in on this one.

No. Effing. Way.

Not gonna happen, I promise.

This is not to say that you use discussing the A as a means of punishment or torture. That would be wrong and counter-productive

I do agree with her that if a couple is to R, there can't be ongoing punishment or efforts to deliberately make the WS feel belittled or depressed.

I agree with this, too, and this is what set her off the other night. She misinterpreted me saying. "You have to be prepared for me to be angry at times" as "I'm going to be angry and pissed forever and make you pay". Big difference.

So the question now is whether the note is from her heart and soul or just a regurgitation of what she has read here and thinks you need to hear.

I know she doesn't know about this site, and I trust (HA!) that it's from her heart.

Find "what every WS needs to know" posted by HUFI in the Wayward forum. Give her that to read. It will deepen her understanding of what you are going thru and will yet encounter.

I was thinking about this...it's a little too dramatic at parts (apologies to some of you), but it's a good summation overall.

And, again, thanks to all of you. Especially you "2x4" folks, as you are really providing me a critical eye.

Update on logistics: she emailed the landlad and told her that she needed to rent the house again (if she doesn't need to after all, she can just cancel. May be a small penalty, but no big deal). Counseling appointment next Thursday is the earliest we could get, but we're on the waiting list for a cancellation.

I'm really, really pinning my decision on (1) how she's acting right now and from what I'm seeing on her email and facebook and (2) this counseling appointment (we've been seeing this lady since before out marriage. She knows us indie and out)

Love to all....

Canon- Your wife is not capable of empathy... but unfortunately it seems like you are going to R with her no matter what her behavior is like.

The threat of divorce must be a real possibility. Otherwise, it has no power.

Just a quick update...

Things have been pretty calm for a week or so. No fighting or drama. I've been checking her fb and email and seen nothing suspicious (though I know some things have been deleted).

People say on this forum all the time look for "actions, not words", and I have to say that her actions have been acceptable. Lots of affection towards me - yesterday she wrote a really nice public message on my fb wall about what a great Dad I am, and this AM I got a text this morning that said "I love you so much and I really want to make this work."

But...I don't know; it could be too late. I'm not feeling the same. I'm not even sure I'm interested in R anymore. She's doing the right things now, but I'm starting to really obsess on the bad shit of the last two years. I'm just feeling detached and disconnected about it all and I think she senses this.

It's been a long, long wait for our MC appt (she's been on vacation at a very inopportune time) but we will finally meet with her Thursday. Really hoping to start....something with that meeting. Not sure what yet.

[This message edited by Cannon at 11:32 AM, June 20th (Monday)]

Cannon,

I'm just feeling detached and disconnected about it all and I think she senses this.

You SHOULD be this way for a couple of reasons:

(1) it is the best method of self-protection, and

(2) she has to truly FEEL the possibility of losing you...which she very well may.

Detachment, and the aura that goes around it, can't be faked. When it is genuine, it permeates without effort. And that is what a wayward will tend to sense.

It is only after you have the feeling of her true committal(which I don't sense yet) is when you can let your guard down some...and work on some of your faults in the marriage.

But beware---her brokenness has to be addressed first. Period.

I would make it clear to her that this aspect is non-negotiable.

She doesn't get to dictate any terms at this point. And the truth is that a truly remorseful spouse wouldn't try to. A remorseful spouse would not only want to ease your pain, but make themself a better person.

Seriously, she was in contact with other men just weeks ago---but she doesn't want a hard time?

Doesn't sound very remorseful to me.

Listen to squiffle--she definitely doesn't sugar coat---and is very insightful. The worst thing you could do is give her any sort of free pass...intentional or not. She has to get to her root problems.

I have more remorse from my WW than you do...and I still can't R with her.

Why?

Because I was to lenient. I let up when I shouldn't have.

I didn't rule with the iron fist that is necessary when dealing with a wayward spouse. Don't fall into this trap.

If she can't deal with your terms....tough. It would be better to give up now then to waste your time in a false R...only to have a new D-day down the road. You have to be vigilant.

Keep us posted.

[This message edited by jb3199 at 5:40 AM, June 21st (Tuesday)]

So, after yesterday's "I really love you and want to make this work" message (about 10 AM yesterday - never acknowledged it or answered it and have basically been ignoring it) she's with kid #1 at his swim meet and just now sends a message that says "Your lack of response is understood"

WTF? I composed two or three angry, sarcastic replies but decided to sit on it a minute. What do you guys think? Is she fishing for sympathy here? She has NO IDEA what I'm going through (which was my first draft back to her)

Hey Cannon,

Maybe that last line is perfect, "You have no idea what I am going through."

She has no right to be snarky. R is impossible if the WS is snarky.

Just a thought. Sorry.

[This message edited by shattered123 at 4:33 PM, June 21st (Tuesday)]

She has no right to be snarky. R is impossible if the WS is snarky.

Just a thought. Sorry.

Don't be sorry at all. You articulated nicely just what I was thinking.

Damn. Fired up now. Should I respond or just let it lie?