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Never really had real R, Thumos-found out in Feb more guys more lies. But it has squelched some of the gut screaming I have felt for the past 12 yrs.

That is tbe toughest-how do you tell when that person who lied and gaslighted is finished lying and gaslighting? False r realy tough to swalow....

Mine was texting a single guy her photo where she hid ber ring behind her back.

I had actually thought of renewing vows just shortly before that discovery.

[This message edited by 64fleet at 6:41 AM, August 22nd (Thursday)]

Reminds me of a mosquito, how stealthy yet persistent they can be, always circling and hovering just outside your ken, waiting for the opportunity to get in and get some blood before you notice.

Thumos, did your WW ever write a NC letter to the AP? I just don't see how he would think it was ever okay to try and initiate contact with her again after all this time.

No she sent a text to him in my presence and then blocked him.

On the park incident, I want to say that while I wasn’t there, it wasn’t like he just walked up to her out the blue. Our two children had arranged with a group of other neighborhood children to be in the park. She went over to the park to make sure all of The kids were where they said they would be. She wasn’t gone long and came back and then told me immediately.

But in retrospect now that you point that out. I’m wondering if maybe they both used that as an opportunity to be in the park at the same time.

I’m so sick of feeling this way and asking these questions, and parsing every moment. It is getting wearisome.

[This message edited by Thumos at 7:10 PM, August 21st (Wednesday)]

“You’re nothing special, your beauty is waning rapidly, you gave yourself willingly to another man, and the unique quality of our relationship has disappeared.” That’s the line that runs through my head.

Seriously, if that is what you think and, more importantly, feel, on a consistent basis, when you see her, then maybe it's time to get yourself out of limbo. After all, if that really is your heart's truth, it will inevitably filter through to how you treat her.

What makes it even worse is that she disdains my sexual “immaturity” as some one who was never with another woman. She has said on more than occasion: “that’s your problem.”

Perhaps you liberate yourself so that you can fix the problem.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 7:48 PM, August 21st (Wednesday)]

Limbo is common when the WW is not truly remorseful and does not have empathy.

The marriage will not be successfully rebuilt and has a high probability of failure.

I posted this elsewhere but I want to say that henceforth I will refer to my “wayward” (what a weak dishwater grey word) as my VOW BREAKER WIFE (VBW) and would urge everyone else to do the same. Liberate your mind and stop feeding into euphemistic slave language to protect the feelings of violators, liars, abusers and thieves. Use real language for what a thing really is.

Here’s the post:

Can we stop using euphemistic language to talk about “cheaters” “affairs” and such? How about less Orwellian doublespeak down the memory hole? Let’s start a movement! “Abusers” “violators” “liars” “thieves” - instead of “affairs” how about just “adultery” and “violation” - how about we start calling them “vow breakers” (VB’s, VBH’s, and VBW’s) instead of “waywards” (where exactly did this little child lost in the woods term come from???? Was it meant to protect a Vow Breaker’s snowflake sensibilities about their illicit f*cking?? This only feeds into the complete nonsense narrative of “fogs” and making “mistakes” and all the rest that EVERYONE HERE KNOWS IS COMPLETE AND UTTER LOGICALLY INCOHERENT PABLUM.)

So let’s stop it ourselves and give them no quarter and shine the sunlight on this like we would on vampires.

VOW breakers. Liars. Abusers. Violators.

Mmmkay? Thanks.

Wanna give Esther Perel a run for her money? That is the way to do it.

We have adopted euphemistic terminology in service of sociopathy.

Thumos:

I would agree with what some others have said, I guess. I do not see your situation improving unless divorce is on the table for you and you mean it.

Your WW has done a bit of decent work, but is intractable on key issues as you have posted. I doubt she would be moved unless divorce stares her in the face. Maybe not even then. Maybe not even enough.

You posted a bit about your child. I have three children and am divorced. Mine are a ways to go before they are gone. With three the financial burden I face is significant. I get stressed out raising the kids too, it's hard. With just one at home those burdens would be more manageable for you.

I don't know what the long term impact will be for the kids. Right now I am suffering the most. The ex is a decent enough parent, except she's a horrible communicator. So I am typically on my own on figuring things out unless she deigns to tell me. There are a couple of things the kids have needed help with that she will not do, because, well, she's selfish. The rest she does or gets her parents to do.

She left me for a guy whom she has since married. So the kids have a stepdad now. She wields all of the power in her new family, which is her preference. I apparently challenged her too much. Whatever.

I have managed to accept most of the emotional impact of all this. Main stressers are money, the kids now and again, and being open in my new relationshp.

Just sharing this so you have some input on the kid stuff. I had no choice, ex divorced me. My kids know why we broke up.

Gottman says he can accurately pinpoint marriages that don’t make it. The main behavior he sees is when one spouse shows contempt for the other. I am pretty neutral on R or D unless there is hostility/contempt. Your WW and the AP showed contempt for you and the OBS.

There is a poster, SpeedBump, whose husband had an affair with a neighbor and they rubbed her nose in it. Guess who is pretty much done with her husband. There are posters here who have managed to R with cheaters who treated them like dirt. Not my call to make. I just wonder if you want to live like this for the rest of your life. The one life you have, I might add.

I am always amazed and the sheer cruelty of so called good people when they are vicious to their partners.

I think the comment above about contempt is spot on. Your WW has treated you with a fair amount of contempt.

From what you've described about your WW, I expect that if you bring up the idea that you're moving toward D, she will try to put you down, make you feel like a failure. She'll say that it's a flaw in you that you've not been able to move beyond this and put it in the past, that your immature views on sex are keeping you from being able to be a good husband to her, etc.

Be ready for this. Her instinct, perhaps even without knowing it, is to put you on the defensive, make you question your reality, make you feel you need to apologize.

This is why both me and that other poster just a few posts up wrote long posts outlining a letter you should write, and then read to her. The speaking in person is the better way to communicate, but writing it in advance keeps you from getting tongue-tied.

There is a third ground, by the way. You could simply openly start dating and seeing other women. Tell your WW that you are doing this. Tell her you are being up front about it because you don't want to be a liar and a sneak, like she did, but you also don't want to go to your grave having only had sex with one person, a person who cheated on you.

It will pose some difficulties because you are a married man who is not separated and not in a formal open relationship. However, I hear generally that the world of OLD offers a lot of possibilities, depending on where you live.

I had a question. I think you said the AP once approached your WW and conveyed a threat to you. What was that?

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 7:22 AM, August 22nd (Thursday)]

There was contempt late in my marriage, so Gottman was right for me.

I have thought about divorce ultimatum scenarios... they can be difficult. The BS may not be able to execute them, meaning they can't pull off being on the fence. The ultimatum either isn't convincing or they need to go 100% on divorce and give up on the WS.

Don't really know what the WS would do here either. She could go on the offensive or crumble, I can see both scenarios. The WS also may not be able to get back in a spot where they can actually work on the marriage either.

"Divorce ultimatum scenarios". A BS should never resort to bs. A BS should find his heart's truth and follow it.

Divorce should never be used as a gambit to try to induce change in the WW. A BS should divorce because he wants to get out of infidelity and D is his only viable path. I personally think this is the case with Thumos.

Sometimes, when staring down the maw of an impending D, a WW will do the work and make the wholesale changes needed to support successful R. But a BH should NEVER start a D with the idea that this is what will happen. He should start a D because he wants to be divorced from his wife. Period.

This is why both me and that other poster just a few posts up wrote long posts outlining a letter you should write, and then read to her. The speaking in person is the better way to communicate, but writing it in advance keeps you from getting tongue-tied.

This is well underway. I’m several drafts into it because I want it to be plainspoken and direct without being accusatory and condemnatory. I’m outlining for her the things I’m struggling with in very clear language and the things I need for her in order for us to reconcile. I’m making no mention of divorce, and I’m not making ultimatums. But I suppose what I’m saying in “the memo” is essentially a soft ultimatum: I’m simply saying these are the things I need to heal and for us to be truly working toward reconciliation. If she is unable to do these things then we probably need to discuss a different path forward. I’m also telling her I’m struggling and that it seems to be festering and getting worse.

The second thing I’m doing is locating a good individual counselor for myself and making an appointment. With my work travel this will be a bit tricky to pull off in the very near term, but I should be able to do it relatively soon.

From what you've described about your WW, I expect that if you bring up the idea that you're moving toward D, she will try to put you down, make you feel like a failure. She'll say that it's a flaw in you that you've not been able to move beyond this and put it in the past, that your immature views on sex are keeping you from being able to be a good husband to her, etc.

Be ready for this. Her instinct, perhaps even without knowing it, is to put you on the defensive, make you question your reality, make you feel you need to apologize.

Yes, her reaction to “the memo” will be a determining factor in how we move forward and the Y in the crossroads.

I am not giving her a D ultimatum in the memo because I feel it would allow her the “out” of closing herself off. Im also trying to be as hopeful as I can in the language I use (thanks Trdd) .

I want to give her a chance to open up and disclose, and to show me she can change. Filing for divorce may be necessary but I want to give her an opportunity before I take that step. I’ll also be making an appointment with an individual counselor and I may try to do a few sessions to talk this through before I give it to her.

If she does as you say — and there’s a good chance she will — then I will have peace about moving forward with separation.

I’m only stating in “the memo” very plainly that these are the things I need in order for us both to stop rugsweeping, for her to stop protecting the affair as an entitled secret life, and to try to move forward with reconciliation. If she is unable or unwilling to do these things, then we will need to discuss a different path.

You might also consult with a lawyer. It's useful information to know what a divorce looks like in your jurisdiction. How long does it take. What does it cost. What is the likely outcome in terms of asset division, custody, etc.

As to your memo, my advice would be to speak from your heart. Don't try to be clever, or use it as a gambit, or craft it in a way that is intended to elicit a particular action or response. Instead, be straightforward and honest. State your truth. You can never go wrong with your truth. You never have to backpedal nor regroup as long as it is your truth.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 2:35 PM, August 22nd (Thursday)]

VOW breakers. Liars. Abusers. Violators.

Can I add monster to it? Mine is an NPD monster

Thumos - did you give the 'memo'? And if so, how did it go?

Your thread resonates with me. I am not quite as far out...a little over 2 years from d-day for me. I think R is in the works for me, and I made the decision to stay on January 1 of this year after lots of therapy, IC and a few weekend intensives and courses for betrayed spouses. I think the professional help I have gotten is about as good as it gets, but yet, I have hit the POLF several times. I tend to get to this 'whatever' stage. A stage where I don't want to be divorced, but also don't want to be married...just meh.

I am not in the anger stage anymore, but when I made the decision to stay, I guess I was expecting some fanfare and a parade. Instead, I got the cold hard realization that the choices I had in front of me were all shitty, and I chose the less shitty choice. My fWW has been amazing, and the transformation she has made is incredible, but I still have my doubts that I am doing what I truly want. I was at a conference, and the main speaker said that 'You are not a fool to stay and be a part of the redemptive work in someone's life'. It really resonated with me, but now I feel like I am destined to just be OK to Medium OK. Not because of her, but because of the transformation that has happened in me. Maybe that is the reality that I should have always known, but instead of being excited about this new life with a transformed wife that is being the wife she should have always been, I just have this feeling like 'yeah, this will do.'

Don't get me wrong...it is pleasant, we have good times and parent well, and have even picked up the pace in the bedroom, but for me, I don't think I am 'making love' ever again...maybe I put too much weight on that in the past. Maybe I should have not assigned so much value on 'making love' instead of just f*cking, but that is where I find myself on the plain.

Thoughts from a fellow traveler...if you see me on the side of the road in the POLF, stop and say hello!

I haven’t yet. I feel like I need to do things in the proper sequence. Since I’ve never been to IC, I think I need to do that first and talk through the memo with a good counselor. A few other preliminary steps that have been brought up here by others need to be done first as well - ducks in a row and all that.

Not because of her, but because of the transformation that has happened in me. Maybe that is the reality that I should have always known, but instead of being excited about this new life with a transformed wife that is being the wife she should have always been, I just have this feeling like 'yeah, this will do.'

Don't get me wrong...it is pleasant, we have good times and parent well, and have even picked up the pace in the bedroom, but for me, I don't think I am 'making love' ever again...maybe I put too much weight on that in the past. Maybe I should have not assigned so much value on 'making love' instead of just f*cking, but that is where I find myself on the plain.

Man this resonates. I also feel altered inside. Apathetic. Meh. And the sex is either “power through the mind movies” or “use her as a sex toy.” Maybe that’s always the way it was for her (and her past comments about me being “immature” in not understanding “meaningless sex” seem to indicate this). If so, now we’re on the same wavelength. Maybe that’s as good as it gets.

Hey man! I am just now getting to responding... several pages of reading and it seems like most of your posts have been answered and you've been heard by many folks here.

So, I'll just add that I've been where you are mentally... at least I think so based on what you've described.

I felt overcome with nervous energy like I was trapped in my own head. Like the stress and pressure of dealing with it all was fading and I had to do something with all that mental energy. That part of me regretted staying and not taking a tougher stance from the get go, and that anger at myself and the situation and the injustice demanded I DO SOMETHING but there wasn't anything to do really but wait and see.

For me... which likely won't be the same reaction as you have because you sound more mature... I took that energy and anger and went about doing pranks. Lots of pranks. In hindsight, what I was doing was just a form of escapism.

Ehhh... I'm ramblin... does any of that help?

I felt overcome with nervous energy like I was trapped in my own head. Like the stress and pressure of dealing with it all was fading and I had to do something with all that mental energy. That part of me regretted staying and not taking a tougher stance from the get go, and that anger at myself and the situation and the injustice demanded I DO SOMETHING but there wasn't anything to do really but wait and see.

There are several people on here who have pretty well described my head space with eerie accuracy, and this is one of those times.

Pranks. Hmmm. I’ve definitely thought about that.