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TIF

I support the stay or go choices anyone makes consentually after betrayal. That said, you asked. And my experience is I wish I had gone eyes wide open much sooner.

I have come to believe for myself that infidelity is abuse. The WH could have killed me from the infidelity trauma and/or an incurable fatal std.

I am a divorcing BS so take my comments in that light. And my faithbase is that sex occurs during marriage. That said, however, I would likely have had less sexual risk having sex with random strangers in bars than with my WS. (IMHO cheaters as a whole I think are far less careful, maybe even less selective in their partners, and definitely a whole lot less truthful). If you don't care, say for example, that you might one day get a phone call like I did that the OW had given her ex husband an incurable std that is not commonly tested for and now his current wife has to live with that...well carry on...

To me also intimacy begins with truth and is a deep knowing of another.

Then there are the scars on the soul caused by the lies. Honestly post finding out about this affair and it's associated lies, I realised that the WH lied to me from the start.

For me the continued lies and decisions to continue contact with the AP (s) and people who knew about and supported the affair were a deal breaker.

As the Dread Pirate Roberts said, “Good job, go to bed. I’ll most likely kill you in the morning.” Every day has been this. And actually, it’s been ok.

He did change, though. I keep his balls in my purse now. Everyone has their price. I guess we found ours.

3yrsout, I love it. I love how you put this and I love the combination of candor, pain, and importantly, the sense of contentment and possibly even of happiness in there. I read all that in your response.

I can very much relate and appreciate your message - overt and the less overt. Thank you. I'm right there with you - 30 years later. At least I think I am -)

My fWW also did change. But, like you, I am never far from some measure of control, as I see fit to need. I am not deluded in thinking I can control anyone else, but I am on heightened awareness about the things I can control. You left me with a smile, 3yrsout.

To stay on point of the OP's question/premise, it all depends on how one defines "reconciliation". There is no absolute here. No one definition. No single concept to it. I am certain my fWW and I have reconciled. That does not in any way mean there is no lingering pain, nor does it mean that everything I needed form her was adequately done. As a couple we are reasonably normal. Reasonably happy. Choose to be together rather than not. In my definition it is as reconciled as I can expect. Does my definition of R match yours or others......maybe, probably not.

You can be some level of happy and some level of content in staying with a former cheater. A lot depends on the former cheater and how you feel about their progress and change. There is no single line in the sand as to what is and what is not successful R. To the OP, you get to decide that.

[This message edited by DIFM at 1:06 PM, October 23rd, 2020 (Friday)]

I have come to believe for myself that infidelity is abuse. The WH could have killed me from the infidelity trauma and/or an incurable fatal std.

thank you for saying this. I have concluded the same and it seems many others are beginning to reach the same conclusion. This a very important point. There's a topic here called "Adultery as Abuse" that has a long and thoughtful discussion on this.

Reasonably happy.

Is it appropriate for me to conclude this is probably the emotional state of the vast majority of reconciliations? I don't argue for R vs D, and I don't judge anyone who chooses either. I have been mightily tempted to take "reasonably happy" over the past four years and many here have read about this struggle of mine. I'm just asking if the consensus is that this state probably represents most reconciliation attempts. In my own case, "unmitigated joy" would be the expectation, and short of that I'm moving on.

In my own case, "unmitigated joy" would be the expectation, and short of that I'm moving on.

I could never hold out for that. I have lived long enough with my fWW, and without her, that if my only measure of contentment was "unmitigated joy", I fear I would spend a lifetime waiting.

That is too high a bar for me. I am not sure how many people, even without the stain of infidelity in their life, can say that unmitigated joy is their norm. I don't see it as a point of "settling", rather a setting of a baseline for the minimum I can accept and still be reasonably happy. Reasonably happy is not a bad thing. After 65 years on this planet, with plenty of losses and failings, finding "content" is a big win.

Right, unmitigated joy is not attainable IMO. Life is just too damn brutal.

OTOH, staying in a relationship with someone who has betrayed and abused me would be even more brutal. It would eat at me.

OTOH, staying in a relationship with someone who has betrayed and abused me would be even more brutal. It would eat at me.

Even for those of use that have found a way to to find a way, your position is completely understandable and reasonable.

That is too high a bar for me. I am not sure how many people, even without the stain of infidelity in their life, can say that unmitigated joy is their norm.

Not as an expectation of a permanent state, but rather that a spouse ought to be able to bring this experience to you at least some of the time. And yes, I've had this experience in the past with my WW.

But it seems to me once infidelity poisons the well, any glimpse of "unmitigated joy" is likely to be completely off the table -- whereas one could at least conceivably experience it with someone who hasn't betrayed you.

Again, I don't expect to walk around in a state of permanent bliss with any woman I'd hypothetically be monogamously committed to. But I do expect much more out of a WS after betrayal, than "reasonably happy."

To be in a place where I feel safe with my WW. This is the main thing that is missing. I am knowingly carrying forward a bunch of risk, and I do not feel safe. Comfortable yes, safe no. Where I would want to type fWW instead of WW. This is the main issue. The "lack of respect" or a sign that my feelings really matter to her in a way to change her behavior permanently for the better. She does set up "better" boundaries, but if we are using the windows and walls stuff, she basically has a barred window where a wall belongs. It's better than before, but she keeps looking out of it on occasion.

She has basically told me that her autonomy, job, etc. are things she doesn't want to lose and completely cut off. Basically she has told me she will not do what I have asked. Let's take the most recent example of her getting into the orbit of AP's friend.

Me: "I don't like that you are being friendly with AP's friend"

Her: "Well he's a coworker and having a hard time coming out because of his conservative background and I'm one of his few liberal friends"

"Ok, sure, but it puts you one step closer to AP and that hurts and makes me anxious"

"I'm sorry but it's important to me"

What was said earlier about how your WW clearly putting a few other things before your feelings and your marriage.

I am curious though, exactly about "what is so important to her" for her to be playing this role. That she may not want to lose herself in a marriage doesn't really fully explain why this is with your WW.

A married woman just should not be going around being another man's angel/confidant/healer--even if that man happens to be 100% gay and "nothing" happens. (And there is reason to be skeptical that he is indeed gay. And even if he really is gay--keep in mind that there are plenty of instances of gay men having sex with women, and women falling for their gay male friends.)

This doesn't even take into account that her gay friend is connected to AP. So not only is her relationship with her gay friend inappropriate as is, but there is the big additional problem that it is another path from her to AP. No Bueno.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 5:58 PM, October 23rd (Friday)]

People deserve friends. They deserve to make new friends. I think opposite sex friends are fine as long as you keep solid boundaries. I think this particular friendship is only problematic inasmuch as he is a good friend with AP. That's my only problem with it.

People deserve friends. They deserve to make new friends. I think opposite sex friends are fine as long as you keep solid boundaries. I think this particular friendship is only problematic inasmuch as he is a good friend with AP. That's my only problem with it.

Here's what I think about that. One may deserve to have friends of the opposite sex. But, you forfeit that right as soon as you show that you have no boundaries in opposite sex friendships. That trust is gone. I could also not trust a former cheater to be friends with a friend of his cheating partner.

In my life, that would be a boundary. That is not control, it is a required boundary for your protection. You appear to also think it should be boundary. I would explore why you struggle with setting the boundaries you need.

Say for the sake of the argument WS is bisexual. Have they figured the right to any friends?

My best friend is married to a bisexual man. She found out on her dday. Discovered emails to other men.

It was traumatic, to say the very least. For the same reason dday I traumatic for everyone.

He had been on Craigslist. Out of all of the men he had contacted,there were a handful of women he had contacted as well.

She has a boundary of no female friends,unless they are mutual friends. He has happily accepted that boundary. Of course, as with all boundaries, this is HERS. He is absolutely allowed to be friends with whoever he likes. If he chooses that, she will choose divorce.

She is intelligent and mature enough to recognize that she can't tell him NO friends. But she feels much more comfortable with him having male friends than female friends. And she doesn't need to explain that. As BS, we all have odd triggers,and things specific to us that we are no longer comfortable with. This is hers.

Dday for her was 15 years ago. They are still married,and very happy. He is transparent. He passed a poly several years into their R, just because she needed to put a few things to rest. He has male friends he goes fishing with,and she is fine with it.

What works in her marriage after dday,may not work for someone else. That is something you should completely understand, OP.

[This message edited by HellFire at 9:24 AM, October 24th (Saturday)]

People deserve friends. They deserve to make new friends. I think opposite sex friends are fine as long as you keep solid boundaries. I think this particular friendship is only problematic inasmuch as he is a good friend with AP. That's my only problem with it.

Well but that is quite the big "only" though, isn't it. Actually that alone should be disqualifying for her to be close friends with this person, male or female.

I think it is quite easy for this to devolve to a hypothetical discussion, one that justifies your WW's continuing bad behavior and your continued caving to your WW's bad behavior. Doesn't everyone deserve to make friends? Of course they do. Let us look at the additional facts pertinent here though:

1. Your WW has already shown a serious problem with boundaries.

2. Your WW is showing an unwillingness to make you a priority.

And so, no wonder, you don't feel safe in the marriage. You understand that her taking on another close male friendship despite your (quite justified) reservations, is only throwing fuel on the fire when it comes to both 1. and 2.? How it is a manifestation of quite a big problem here.

It looks to me that instead, that you are rationalizing that *ahem* This Is Fine by saying "people deserve friends" and maybe that you don't want to be a controlling husband or whatever.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 11:01 AM, October 24th (Saturday)]

Its unrealistic for a grown adult to not have friends and for some of those friends to be another gender is entirely normal and healthy .

The problem in your marriage is that she cant see you as “enough “ emotional support and she has made it clear that she is entitled to find emotional support elsewhere even at the expense of your feelings

If you force her hand here she will probably still keep looking for EA s and end up with men who want the much more common trade of sex in return for pretend emotional support. I dont see how that helps you .

She has issues and doesnt want to fix them . Maybe you need to just accept that. At this stage you need to spend all your time thinking about what you are doing and not what she is doing .

[This message edited by siracha at 2:01 PM, October 29th (Thursday)]

TiF,

You're in charge of your thoughts. You decide when you're safe. You're giving your power to your W. You can change that.

IDK if your therapist is competent or not. I know I went through long periods of rejecting a therapist's feedback. It wasn't until I actually was ready to make some internal changes that I realized he had been right all along. So, to know if you need a new one, I recommend asking yourself what this one confronts. If this therapist confronts your passivity, maybe you don't need a new one.

I urge you take down the barriers that keep you from owning your power.

You can embark on a course of action from strength and from weakness, etc. If you do something from strength, you'll usually get something positive out of the action; if from weakness, you probably won't. Right now, you are not accessing your strengths - but those strengths are in you, ready and waiting.

As you all can see, I do struggle with "passivity" in general. Maybe it's because I've generally gotten what I wanted historically and haven't had to go fight someone I love to change their behavior. IDK.

Anyway, I saw my IC today and it went pretty well. We had previously talked about me not exactly rug sweeping but leaving piles laying around in the open. We talked about the potential to do a trial separation or something less severe than divorce that would get my point across that I'm not really well and truly happy in my marriage to my WW. She was out this weekend, and it was really nice not having to deal with her or talk to her for a few days.

I know you are all trying to give me a nice kick in the ass to get going and I appreciate it. I think just getting comfortable with the idea of separation and divorce may just be taking awhile for me. While I am historically decisive in most decisions, I have been consistently slow on this topic. It might just be something that takes time.

Once again, thanks everyone for their input.

there is no reason to have opposite sex friends

too often that is the first step on to the slippery slope to a PA

the person you are in a relationship is your opposite sex

friend.

TIF- I think it's okay for you to do things at your own pace, as long as you are being realistic about where you are actually at.

I thought I was being realistic about where I was at in a dubious(and ultimately fake) R.

But once it was over for real my feelings kicked in and least me know that while my brain may have understood what was happening, my heart had been in total denial this whole time.

That's just me, your experience may be totally different. I just like to share in case something I say rings true to anyone I share with.

once it was over for real my feelings kicked in and least me know that while my brain may have understood what was happening, my heart had been in total denial this whole time.

I have been struggling to piece together this exact message because this is the truth of it. Of all the "not really in R, staying for the kids, I'm detaching" stories I've read here (hundreds of them), this ends up to be the situation. The downside of marriage without reconciliation is that your head understands the concept but your heart is in denial. And you will get hurt, almost guaranteed. I understand that it won't stop you from working your plan, but just understand the hurts that accompany this 'plan to not plan.'