SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Get a new therapist.

I mean, I doubt they would give significantly different advice.

You deserve someone that loves and respects you. Cheaters are incapable of doing so.

Liars don't care enough about anyone other than themselves to do so.

I think I have love. Respect, hard to say yes to.

You need to tap into figuring out what you really want in the next year, 5 years, etc. If you can choose to be in a sexless M, or be willing to accept getting an STD, and you don't need honesty or respect from your partner then by all means stay.

I would never stay in a sexless M, infidelity or not. We had sex earlier today. It was pretty good.

Please understand the intention of this thread and my struggle. It would be easy if she was being a bitch to me. If she was being extremely demanding. Not wanting and having sex. In anyway restricting my freedom.

You may recall my WW was "only" in an EA (yes she failed to initiate a PA, and for some that is the same as actually doing it, for me attempted murder isn't murder). PA would be an instant dealbreaker. I never would have considered R at all, and never would be in a position like this weighing my options. I do not judge those that can make R or M work after a PA though.

I wouldn't. But I'm not you.

Fair enough.

attempted murder isn't murder

True, but the only difference in the eyes of the law is that an actual death didn't occur.

This is interesting because murder and adultery are on the same list of "big no-no" transgressions in most human cultures, past and present, throughout most of human history, across most of the planet.

Intentionality and premeditation (both things we've discussed here on SI on other threads) do factor in criminal cases of attempted murder.

So intentionality COUNTS big time. It's your life (or funeral or whatever) so you'll have to decide how much intentionality matters to you.

Did the attempted murder intend to murder? Did they take deliberate steps toward committing the murder?

Those are usually the questions.

In your WW's case, did she intend to carry out a full-blown act of adultery? Yes. Did she take deliberate steps toward committing adultery? Yes.

As I said to you awhile back, "The beatings will continue until the morale improves."

[This message edited by Thumos at 4:02 PM, October 21st (Wednesday)]

True, but the only difference in the eyes of the law is that an actual death didn't occur.

The only difference in my mind is I don't have to deal with mind movies of them actually fucking and him blowing loads inside her. I don't envy that struggle at all.

The only difference in my mind is I don't have to deal with mind movies of them actually fucking and him blowing loads inside her. I don't envy that struggle at all.

No but she wanted that and was going about preparing for it all the same.

It's really difficult for me to credit that your WW and the AP didn't at least deep kiss. I can't remember if they did?

Anyway, once she crossed the Rubicon of working up to allowing another man's DNA inside her, the little Cro Magnon homunculus in your brain is going to have his say -- and the more you try to shut him up with fancy talk about risk management, the louder he is going to grunt.

He's like Phil Hartman in that "Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer" skit. Just as smart as you, but a lot stronger and unwilling to sit quiet.

[This message edited by Thumos at 4:17 PM, October 21st (Wednesday)]

Is it possible to just suck it up and make it work functionally, even though you cannot fully reconcile due to the WS's actions?

sucking it up made me so sick by the end. I raised, educated and Protected my children from WS. I was forced to SUCK IT UP because he just wouldn’t leave. He couldn’t bare the thought of me finding peace and happiness. So here I am, 52, almost free and just beginning my life.

My bottom-line question for you is why would you want to stay married to a proven liar? To someone you can't trust to put you first? To someone who has devalued you and your children in this way? I know for me in my situation that was not gonna work. What price freedom.

And about the EA... just saying if I had a dollar for every time I saw a BS on here talking about "it was only an EA" when it turned out to be a full-blown PA that they found out with TT and false R... well, I wouldn't have to worry about my next grocery trip.

No but she wanted that and was going about preparing for it all the same.

It's really difficult for me to credit that your WW and the AP didn't at least deep kiss. I can't remember if they did?

Yes they did. The story strains credibility but has been extremely consistent and corroborated in a situation where she would have no reason to lie.

My bottom-line question for you is why would you want to stay married to a proven liar?

Because things are mostly good. I am trying to make that abundantly clear.

To someone you can't trust to put you first?

I don't have to put her first either. I put me first. She puts her first, we keep at it so long as there is some symbiosis not something that is fully parasitic.

To someone who has devalued you and your children in this way? I know for me in my situation that was not gonna work. What price freedom.

Freedom from disrespect I suppose? I mean I have freedom of action. She claims to respect me. I don't really believe that though. I mean, look at the actions.

And about the EA... just saying if I had a dollar for every time I saw a BS on here talking about "it was only an EA" when it turned out to be a full-blown PA that they found out with TT and false R... well, I wouldn't have to worry about my next grocery trip.

If/when such a thing happens, it is over, and I'll send you a dollar. Right now there is no false R because there is no R. We go through the right little motions to show love and appreciation, as outlined in Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work. We just have this acute A issue in an otherwise good pairing.

We just have this acute A issue in an otherwise good pairing.

But other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?

Just one question for you TIF that comes from this:

We go through the right little motions to show love and appreciation

So. Are you just pretending?

Take her out of the equation for a minute. Are you pretending to be someone you're not? Are you pretending to have emotions you don't? Are you pretending to enjoy someone you don't? Just in order to ______?

Are you sleepwalking through your own life?

It's that idea of pretending to myself that flipped a switch in my head. I could probably pretend to be married to just about anyone. I didn't, however, see how I could pretend to be with someone who wasn't remorseful (in my case.)

Living with an inauthentic version of my own self though...That felt absolutely horrible.

You could choose to do that, if you were fine with that kind of empty life. Sorry, but I don't see the point in living with someone if you can't share your life with them. This would not be a life, it would be an existence...

But other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?

Oversimplified and missing the point. It's fine to reject R as ever being possible, D being the only answer to any and all As. It's totally reasonable to hold that opinion, and I wouldn't try to convince such a person otherwise. I also don't think it's unreasonable to believe R is possible after an A. This thread, is basically about my M, yes. And the question, broadly, is can you continue an M without R, much like you are D'd and looking out for yourself but you are together. I know you can just "date after you get divorced" but that seems like extra steps.

No marriage is perfect. A good number of marriages are bad before the affair. A good number of marriages are good before the affair.

Mine is in the second category. On most measures, still in the "good" category.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 5:09 PM, October 21st (Wednesday)]

Oversimplified and missing the point.

It was a joke and I should have put a smiley face on it.

But my point was to observe you’re saying “we have a great marriage other than that my wife was ramping up for a torrid affair and now refuses to go NC with the other man.”

That doesn’t sound great.

It's that idea of pretending to myself that flipped a switch in my head.

Really good set of observations and where I landed as well.

[This message edited by Thumos at 5:34 PM, October 21st (Wednesday)]

A good number of marriages are good before the affair.

Mine is in the second category. On most measures, still in the "good" category.

Mine was in the second category also — and now my WW has copped to that as she grieves it. I don’t know why she took for granted a precious and good thing, but she did and she and I both know that for sure.

I don’t know if she will ever understand why she did it either, which is one of many reasons I don’t feel comfortable moving forward with her.

I suspect your WW is in a similar category based on what you’ve told us — she doesn’t seem to know her own chaotic mind — although she is now compounding her intentional disrespect with ramified intentional further disrespect.

That doesn’t sound good. It sounds awful.

I’m not at all opposed to reconciliation altho I do set the skepticism meter high. Too often the secular version of reconciliation seems happy-clappy and it feels a little too close to what I’ve seen on evangelical circles around cheap and pressured rote “forgiveness” (like Bonhoeffer’s distinction between cheap grace and costly grace).

But you’re not reconciling, you’re just getting by and hurting and you obviously have a lot of doubts about the sustainability of this state of affairs, which is why you started this thread.

Most of us are saying “no, it’s not sustainable or tenable for very long” but we’re not living in your body, you are.

So. Are you just pretending?

No. I think positive interactions are necessary to yield positive results. I make an effort to have those positive interactions. I do not avoid negative interactions.

Take her out of the equation for a minute. Are you pretending to be someone you're not? Are you pretending to have emotions you don't? Are you pretending to enjoy someone you don't? Just in order to ______?

No, I am who I am. Divorce rationally feels like what I should do, but it is not what I want to do. I communicate my emotions to my WW, she just doesn't really care when she hurts me a little here or there. Or she cares a little but really wants something else more because it's "important" one way or another.

Are you sleepwalking through your own life?

I don't think so.

I don't know TIF, it looks to me like you don't mind sharing your wife with another man. I don't know your story, but it appears your wife had an EA with a kiss or some kissing. Are you just bullshitting yourself watching the build up to when sugar lips finally spews the right turn of phrase and the "blows loads" in her line gets crossed?

Because she's already crossed the physical line. And EAs are usually a build up, right? Kind of like edging, but on a longer trajectory. Ahh, the sweet release. But I'm sure sugar lips wants to keep the whole "relationship" on the up and up. I'm sure he's investing a bunch of time in your wife with the noblest of intentions.

I don't know TIF, it looks to me like you don't mind sharing your wife with another man. I don't know your story, but it appears your wife had an EA with a kiss or some kissing. Are you just bullshitting yourself watching the build up to when sugar lips finally spews the right turn of phrase and the "blows loads" in her line gets crossed?

Because she's already crossed the physical line. And EAs are usually a build up, right? Kind of like edging, but on a longer trajectory. Ahh, the sweet release. But I'm sure sugar lips wants to keep the whole "relationship" on the up and up. I'm sure he's investing a bunch of time in your wife with the noblest of intentions.

They are usually a build up. I believe I caught hers before the sweet release. He actually declined her advances. So IDK what exactly sugar lips was waiting for. Perhaps he was still struggling with his internal moral compass being shot to shit by my WW. As far as I'm concerned he's as stand up dude of an AP as a BH could hope for. Just short of being good enough to not even get involved at all.

They have not been investing "a bunch of time" in each other since DDay, though a few months ago the break of NC is what put me into the whole no longer in R situation in the first place.

No. I think positive interactions are necessary to yield positive results. I make an effort to have those positive interactions. I do not avoid negative interactions.

But do you see how you changed that? Originally you said: "We go through the right little motions."

That sounds much different. And what made me wonder if you were just pretending - being polite - making nice - basically going through the motions of being married.

I'm not trying to push you into anything more than taking a good look inward to see if you are fully invested with all of your genuine inner good stuff.

Then again - if you don't want that kind of partnership, that's also a much different thing. But for me it would mean a whole lot of denying what's important to me.

I don't know, This0Is0Fine, you strike me as someone who is rather passive, at least when it comes to your marriage. Like the dog in that comic strip, you won't take action until everything is on fire, and even then it is no guarantee.

Let's look at facts here. Your wife basically CHOSE another man over you. The only reason why their affair wasn't consummated was because HE rejected HER advances. From what you've written on here in the following several months, it is clear that her OP was still whom she really wanted to be with, and she is still with you because you are a commendable option, the good safe choice, a solid Plan B. And, related to this, not only did your wife blow through the conditions you set to stay married, she didn't seem to feel all that bad about doing so either.

This strikes me as a rather sad way to live. And yet, as far as you seem to be concerned, *ahem* this is fine. You are alright living this way. After all these posts on your threads and reading all these stories on here.

Thing is though, there is certainly no guarantee she won't cheat again, and frankly, who can imagine why she wouldn't be cheating again. Your wife didn't do any of the work on herself, and this time it would be far easier for her to justify an affair as if it wasn't easy enough for her to do so before. This time your marriage is already hollowed-out. And didn't she say the quiet part out loud already and admit that she might end up cheating on you again anyway?

Saying that other than your wife's lax efforts towards infidelity, you and she are compatible, is kind of like saying that if it weren't for that serial killer schtick, Ted Bundy was a pretty nice guy. Not quite to that extreme perhaps, but the same idea.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 9:40 PM, October 21st (Wednesday)]

I’m actually horrified by what your therapist said. It’s wrong on so many levels. Makes me suspect he’s a cheater himself.

You deserve better all around. You need to value yourself more.

Oh boy, will this turn into another 50 page epic thread?