SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

It still all boils down to the whys and the how, to me.

Whys *are* relevant. But it's the *how*--how it came to be that the WS made the decision to betray the spouse/marriage/family--FOR WHATEVER REASON(S)-- that is 100% the responsibility of the WS, and AFAIAC, the crux.

Well unhinged - I don’t agree.

It’s not my fault that he had this in him or these are his decisions. But like I said many affairs come at the heels of some crisis. It’s not the crisis’s fault. But it doesn’t take out there was a crisis.

Well, you sure seem to spend a lot of time trying to convince yourself, and us, otherwise. I can say with absolute certainty that I was in the GREATEST crisis of my life after d-day. Guess I should have had a ONS, too.

The "where does the fault lie" came out in our MC session two weeks ago. My wife talked about her A as a A of "convenience". That she was lonely, wanting attention, the AP gave it to her and she "got swept up".

The MC stopped her and told her that she wasn't actually taking responsibility when she says that it was a "convenience" or when she says she "got swept up".

Our MC said that there were things happening in our relationship where Mrs. Cap was making choices to cut off our relationship and withdrawing rather than coming to me with her issues. Then, because she withdrew and still wanted that connection, her choices that created the atmosphere of isolation allowed her to meet a desire in an inappropriate manner.

In other words, there was no getting "swept up" or "convenience" that set the stage. It was her choices that did it. Her choice to withdraw. Her choice to isolate. Her choice to meet her desires through infidelity. Yes, the external environment of the relationship was a conduit, but the same relationship at the time did not produce an A in me. That and that alone demonstrates that the A is entirely on the WS's shoulders. No "the environment was right", no "swept up", no "convenience". Simply acting out.

I know the desire to look at it and say "what could I have done differently to change things so they wouldn't happen." We could've done any number of things to have changed the environment. None of it would have changed our partner's stories and responses in their own minds that led them to the A.

Well, you sure seem to

spend

a lot of time trying to convince yourself, and us, otherwise. I can say with absolute certainty that I was in the GREATEST crisis of my life after d-day. Guess I should have had a ONS, too.

I can see both sides of this. An affair trauma can make you open to do things you otherwise would never do. I never in my right mind would have called my wife the horrible names I called her had there not been an affair.

Likewise I became obsessed with evening the score. I didn’t go about it by an affair, but rather separating and then sleeping with other women. Again, no affair, no separation and no other women. Not in a million years

I think I went about it the right way, but the line is really blurred with what I did, and having an affair. The consistent thing is both would be born out of extreme hurt.

ButForTheGrace writes:

I've been mulling BSR's March 14 paradigm-shattering post for some time. I say paradigm-shattering because the mantra here on SI is to view the cheating in a vacuum, as if it is a sort of illness in the WS that must first be separately cured. BSR suggest that it might be the case that the cheating is a symptom of an illness in the marriage. I've danced around that concept in some of my posts (and been lambasted for it on occasion). I do harbor a private belief that this can be the case.

I'm catching up on this thread. I've not read all of it, yet.

But.

I am totally here.

I recently touched the third rail for daring (gasp!) to posit that the betrayed contributes their own damage to their mind movies. Because, mind movies. The betrayed is writing the screen play. The betrayed is often, most often, unless the betrayed knows, personally, the AP/OW/OM/Other People, actually casting the characters, all of their attributes, actions, etc. The betrayed is directing the action: every inflection, every emotion, every response, every reaction, every manifestation of desire and arousal. The betrayed is writing everyone's script, everyone's lines, including their wayward's scripts, lines, responses, etc.

Ask me how I know.

Well, I'm still scraping off my singed parts from daring to touch that third rail.

I absolutely concur with you and BraveSirRobin, ButForTheGrace.

I didn't trip the trigger, but I absolutely caused some of my own damage by the way in which I navigated the aftermath, or not, by the way I just let it wash over me without managing it for myself.

My husband introduced the raw material for my mind movies into our relationship. My mind movies are a result of that. But what *I* did with my own mind movies, that's on me. And I surely contributed prior traumas and resultant insecurities and anxieties to my mind movies.

Right now, in fact, we are talking about my own codependency, and how it contributed to the environment in my marriage that fucked boundaries and allowed infidelity in the door.

My codependency did not 'cause' my husband's infidelity. Neither did it 'cause' other callous, unempathetic, ridiculous and unhealthy behavior on his part or on the part of his FOO.

But, me staying in the relationship despite it all, absolutely allowed it.

My husband could have done a million things in response to whatever the hell his damage was/is besides cheat.

And I could have, and did, do one million things in response to shit poor treatment in my marriage, both including and apart from that one incident of infidelity, by my husband and his FOO.

The one thing that would have been effective?

Leave.

That's the one thing I did not do.

I don't deserve the way I was treated because I did not leave.

Leaving my house unlocked doesn't create the thief, nor does it make me responsible for the theft.

But I'm damned sure responsible for my own inadequate boundaries.

And there are vast expanses of nuance in between:

Children

Finances

Jobs

Commonly owned property

Endless family situations and demands

Etc etc etc

IMHO, SI has written itself up into a corner where the BS is a sacred cow: not responsible for any damned thing, never ever to be questioned nor impuned in any fucking way. Untouchable.

I could have left.

I probably should have left.

Husband whole heartedly agrees, and he is strongly, openly, unabashedly grateful that I did not.

The weight of his gratitude poised against my long simmering and huge pile of resentment is mind boggling for both of us. We are currently negotiating it- awkwardly.*

Absolutely *nothing* would have 'redirected' my husband and his FOO other than a divorce.

Truthfully, even divorce would not have redirected the FOO. Husband's siblings have lost many several marriages. Hasn't changed the trajectory of the FOO. Husband's parents are as stubbornly dysfunctional as they ever were. Same as it ever was.

The siblings have sworn an oath never to marry again- thus, IMHO, cementing their dysfunction but, if they honor that vow, protecting other unsuspecting souls.

Personally, I hope they honor those vows.

I, we, are currently exploring my codependency.

My tendency toward codependency primarily belongs to me. I don't build, provide, protect, enforce adequate boundaries. That's on me.

Those who take advantage of it?

That's on them.

I didn't create them.

But I did not protect myself from them, either.

I traded my emotional safety for security.

In my personal situation, I was a set up for that trade from birth.

*Right now, my working definition of codependency is:

"I hate you for what I allowed you to do to me."

I read something interesting today:

'Resentment' is comprised of 're-sent anger.'

Rings very true for me.

My HUGE pile of resentment is comprised of decades of 're-sent anger' that was never acknowledged, much less respected and resolved with any equity.

My late understanding of an earlier infidelity born of poor boundaries, a lack of empathy, and a lack of respect, the modeling of respect?

That was simply the final kick in the teeth that was enough to knock over and bust open the hornet's nest.

In my case, the accumulated and larger insults were already long ago manifested.

Husband's infidelity and its impact on me did not make any sense until we started dealing with it in the larger context of both our marriage, and both of our FOO's.

BTW, ButForTheGrace, you were *absolutely right* early on about my codependency.

[This message edited by marriageredux959 at 8:20 PM, March 26th (Friday)]

Can I ask, if someone is indeed in a marital crisis but does not cheat to distract or cope, what IS an appropriate crisis response?

My H's cheating was entitled, selfish, avoidance of life's hardships--not marital.

My RA was marital dissatisfaction and extreme codependency.

What did two ICs tell me I should have done? Asked for a D. Is divorce better than cheating? Yes.

But here on SI, that opinion has been met with anger. "Neither!" they say. "That's ridiculous!" Nope, that is actually the better alternative because instead of secretly killing the M, you openly kill the M.

I have met several BS who would rather be betrayed than left. Is it common?

I have met several BS who would rather be betrayed than left. Is it common?

Oh good lord I hope not.

And yes, divorce is much better than cheating back. Did both, the divorce was a lot more satisfying and healing.

OwningItNow writes:

I have met several BS who would rather be betrayed than left. Is it common?

Individually, I would have rather be left, or leave, than be cheated on.

In the marriage, personally, I would have rather have been left than to have been cheated on, except,

Babies.

Our babies.

I could have walked away from the pending real estate deal, from the first house.

I've walked away from much bigger things.

I wasn't in it for the material aspects.

But, as I've said in other threads, I am the product of a spectacularly broken home.

I would have, and did, throw myself bodily in between my babies and that fate.

That wasn't gonna happen on my watch.

Fortunately, my husband, in terms of infidelity, had an 'incident,' not an 'issue.' One off, in terms of infidelity.

He loved me.

He loved his kids.

He did a stupid.

That particular stupid never happened again.

Plenty of other of stupids did happen.

The infidelity stupid was a symptom.

Personally, I wish that symptom had occurred prior to getting married.

Honestly, primarily because I would have rather not experienced the infidelity at all.

But, mostly, because it would have clued me in about what the hell was heading my way.

Also honestly, Husband was not enjoying the hell either.

He was not enjoying the dysfunction that spawned the single incident of infidelity, and, more importantly, ALL OF THE OTHER BULLSHIT.

He was a great father,

and he was/is a *mostly* great husband.

I am glad we are still together, despite it all.

But yeah, if I'd known then what I know now...

Unfortunately, prolly wouldn't be here.

No, I would not have, by myself, chosen infidelity.

I would rather she had shot me or left me than do what she did.

I have met several BS who would rather be betrayed than left. Is it common?

Only in those who are co-dependent. There may be those who felt that way at first, but I'd venture that, with help, they got through their CoD and wouldn't answer that way again.

For me, I never saw it as an either/or scenario, but a both/and. I'd have rather my wife just left instead of betraying AND planning her exit.

Never, ever would I choose this.

I have met several BS who would rather be betrayed than left. Is it common?

My agency was stolen, the very ground that supports me ripped away, and my soul and psyche destroyed. I don't think I'd every opt for that over someone who is honest with me and willing to discuss the M and its state resulting in leaving me. I can take that... it is honest and difficult but the ground is still beneath me. But the infidelity is just a destroyer that leaves permanent scars at best and damage beyond repair at worst.

OIN - that is a resounding Hell No! I would never have chosen this. 10 months before dday when all I knew was that we weren’t getting along, I offered my WH a divorce or separation - he could’ve left then and I would’ve never known. Sure, I was sad when offering those options, but I wasn’t broken either like I was after dday.

Hikingout, to get back to you - I had horrific coping skills to deal with the aftermath of dday. Those skills and poor choices I made I blame on myself. If I were to find out that my WH were having an affair today, I would never react in the same way. Your WH’s choices and poor coping skills are on him as well. Many of us don’t choose to have an 18 month affair with a coworker/acquaintance of the family after dday. Your WH did. We were all just as devastated as he was by our spouse’s affairs. You contributed to the state of your marriage, not your WH’s choice to have an affair - that is 100% on him.

What did two ICs tell me I should have done? Asked for a D. Is divorce better than cheating? Yes.

But here on SI, that opinion has been met with anger.

Hmmm ... I've always though 'D is better than cheating' is SI orthodoxy, and it's SI orthodoxy because it's correct. (Except to people who are co-d, who may very well think betrayal is better than being left ... but ideally we work on/with co-d folks so they find their own self-worth and strength.)

*****

It's really hard not to blame someone when one says, 'He/she/it/I wouldn't have cheated if one's partner hadn't cheated first.'

The post hoc/propter hoc fallacy is almost baked into our language.

But it's not that one A causes another. If one A did cause another, there would be a lot more 'RA's'.

Rather, one A sometimes triggers something in another person that enables the other person to conduct their own A.

But that's a distinction that's hard to keep straight, IMO.

[This message edited by sisoon at 11:18 AM, March 27th (Saturday)]

Unhinged - it is as if you are not reading what I am saying.

No you should not go have a ONS. I never said that he should have had an affair or that I accept it.

I said he had poor coping skills and the ability to cheat. That ability was triggered by this crisis. As I said, it could have been a death if a parent, or a different crisis that would have spurred it.

WhenI cheated I was in the midst of a few crisis- empty nest, emotions exhaustion, etc. I still have my whys and how’s and all my accountability. Affairs are escapism, escaping pain of something.

To ignore what was going on and what he might have been escaping would be a disservice to understanding the full picture.

I would not have to state this over and over if it was not being challenged. I am not trying to convince myself. I do not feel his affair had anything to do with me personally. I do not feel responsible to help him with his work or to accept what happened.

I am doing the best that I can here - and if you find my posts repetitive or that I am just kidding myself that’s fine - don’t read them. I don’t know what to tell you but the way you are getting your point across in this last response is shaming. I don’t accept it as helpful. I have boundaries to shore up and I am working on that.

And as far as the question would I rather he left or cheated? I would have rathered he had done the right thing and just went through with the divorce. Hands down. In that case it would be a more direct result of my actions. At least it would have been honest. I stay because I’m the meantime I had gotten a lot of clarity over how important he, our marriage, and our family are to me. So with the shoe on the other foot, I am willing to wait and see what he does and what we can do. But if I find him lying or crossing any lines moving forward the consideration time is over.

He does not blame my affair but we can’t talk about his affair without looking at mindset and how do you ignore his mindset was pretty fucking bad, he was still reeling fir having his world exploded? It’s part of all of it, it just is. But he knows his affair is about his actions, coping, weaknesses, and so do I.

Regardless what anyone things, lets look at reality.

When someone cheats on their marriage, they basically accepted they are selfish and do not care about their spouse. They decided someone outside their marriage was more trustworthy than their spouse.

As a result of their cheating, their spouse can do many things. The original cheater just put their betrayed partner into a position where they are hurt, devastated, angry, etc. Let me tell you, the betrayed spouse DOES NOT FEEL SAFE going to the Wayward for any support. (Yes the wayward just pushed them to see advice from ANYONE but their spouse. The betrayed may go to family members, but many times are too embarrassed. They may go to people of the opposite sex, who will listen to them, show them compassion, and as a result, a revenge affair happens.)

The original cheater is 100% responsible for the actions the betrayed spouse now takes. Had the original cheater NOT cheated, they wouldn't have put their betrayed partner in the position they are in.

Whether that the betrayed decides to leave, divorce, separate, get angry, get a revenge affair, or do any other act that they WOULD NOT have done if the wayward DID NOT CHEAT.

Hate to say this, but its true. When someone cheats on a marriage, they are 100% responsible for the fallout. Other waywards will come here and tell them that they are not responsible for their now betrayed partner if they have a revenge affair or start going outside their marriage. Fact is, they would not have done this if the wayward didn't put them in the position to do so.

Lets not try to put on rose tinted glasses. If a wayward didn't originally cheat, they wouldn't be in the position they are in today.

The wayward put the betrayed in a position to let them decide how they want to cope with the waywards original decision. Lets not forget, the waywards now want the betrayed to go to them when they betrayed has issues, but the wayward never did that to the betrayed, but went outside the marriage first.

Too many people on this forum seem to protect the waywards. I'm just calling it out how I see it. First hand as a betrayed spouse and how I felt. I'm sure many more betrayed spouses feel the same. The Wayward spouse was the last person I wanted to see comfort with. I viewed my wayward as a liar, cheat, and someone who backstabbed me. Why would I talk to her about anything related to the affair. Especially with all the lies, trickle truth, the deceit, etc.

Waywards want their cake and eat it too. They didn't give the betrayed the opportunity to listen to them, to cry with them, to comfort them when they had issues. The wayward went out and gave themselves to someone else. When caught, they snap out of the fog, but the damage has been done. They are resposible (100%) for the damage they caused. IF their betrayed spouse starts to seek comfort for someone outside their marriage, its on the wayward. Again, they didn't go to the betrayed when they felt an issue but someone else. The Betrayed now feels they cannot trust the wayward as the wayward has been proven to lie, deceit and show complete disloyalty to their betrayed spouse. Whether that betrayed now leaves, divorces, has an affair of their own, treats the wayward different than before, its 100% on the original wayward. The wayward pushed them into it whether they want to admit it or not.

Unhinged - it is as if you are not reading what I am saying.

hikingout, I've been reading your posts for years and paying very careful attention to the things you've written over the last few months. I'm not trying to shame you and you have my deepest apologies for coming across in such a manner.

I'm simply trying to point out that your husband's eighteen month affair had nothing to do with your affair and everything to do with his own faults as a human being. They are separate issues, which is something I've seen consistently reiterated on SI regarding mad-hatter situations.

If I'm wrong, then so be it. It won't be the first time I've been wrong about something and I'm sure it won't be the last (I know, hard to believe right? ).

Nevertheless, it does seem to me that you believe he would have never cheated had you not cheated first. And I think that's something you're going to have to let go of if you're ever going to move forward.

As for crises precipitating affairs, I cannot recall that many WS claiming that some crisis or another pushed them over the edge. In fact, I would say that was the exception rather than the rule. The only caveat I would add to that is a WS creating a crisis in their own minds or a BS foolish enough to believe a revenge affair was an appropriate or justifiable response.

I would not have to state this over and over if it was not being challenged.

Why do you think people keep challenging you on this?

[This message edited by Unhinged at 2:31 PM, March 28th (Sunday)]

@waitedwaytoolong

I think I went about it the right way, but the line is really blurred with what I did, and having an affair. The consistent thing is both would be born out of extreme hurt.

May I ask how that helped psychologically? Although it's off topic.

Was it healing in some manner and how?

Edit: @Unhinged

Trust me, you're wrong on that. For me personally I carried an anger I had to constantly manage, I wanted to nail some woman to the wall to take my power back.

The reason it never happened is because "standards" and my natural inflection, I'm a romantic, and a woman that does nothing for me emotionally is sexually attractive until they speak.

It almost happened several times and it feels like a scene from a movie depicting the end of days, and every time I brushed against it I felt like an angel of vengeance wielding a burning blade against the darkness of my own self hatred for allowing the humiliation to continue "despite my love for her".

It was a very very strong feeling, it still rears up 14 years later.

[This message edited by Derpmeister at 3:28 PM, March 28th (Sunday)]

** Posting as a member **

The original cheater is 100% responsible for the actions the betrayed spouse now takes.

You seem to be saying that being betrayed gives you and me license to do anything.

I can't disagree more strongly. The BS remains responsible for the BS's feelings, thoughts, and actions. The BS remains constrained by ethics, morality, and legality. The BS remains subject to the ethical, moral, and legal consequences of their actions.

Thinking about revenge is one thing. It's pretty normal. Actually exacting revenge requires adopting a wayward mindset. It requires thinking that one is entitled to act immorally, unethically, illegally, unlovingly, etc., etc., etc.

A revenge A is an A. A person who cheats because they think that being cheated on entitles them to cheat is ... a cheater.

Reasons for cheating have a lot of impact on healing and on relationships, but from the POV of perceiving reality, cheating is cheating.

When someone cheats on their marriage, they basically accepted they are selfish and do not care about their spouse. They decided someone outside their marriage was more trustworthy than their spouse....

You're making unwarranted assumptions here. You're jumping to unwarranted conclusions.

Among other things, selfishness is not a marker of a cheater - we are all selfish. My (fW)W is no more selfish than I am.

I've been reading SI and other sources of infidelity info for more than 10 years. I've never seen 'ap is more trustworthy than my BS' as a top reason for cheating. In fact, I don't remember ever seeing that listed as a reason for cheating.

What I generally see is that the BS isn't much of a consideration at all. What I see (and remember, of course) is WSes cheat because of over-entitlement, conflict avoidance, a belief that external validation will fill up a hole, etc.

You seem to be saying that being betrayed gives you and me license to do anything.

I can't disagree more strongly. The BS remains responsible for the BS's feelings, thoughts, and actions. The BS remains constrained by ethics, morality, and legality. The BS remains subject to the ethical, moral, and legal consequences of their actions.

We will agree to disagree.

Would the Betrayed Spouse be where they are right now had the Wayward NOT CHEATED? Would the Betrayed Spouse go from a happly loving marriage to wanting separation/divorce with a snap of the fingers?

Truth : Wayward has created a situation where the betrayed is emotionally destroyed and would do things they would have never thought of doing prior to discovering the waywards affair. The wayward is 100% resposible for the destruction of the marriage, 100% responsible if the betrayed seeks someone else, 100% responsible if the marriage goes to divorce, 100% responsible for the betrayed being deeply hurt, 100% pushing the betrayed doing what they are doing.

Yes, I'll stand by my word. The wayward was selfish when they stepped outside of their marriage. They do not care about their spouses, because if they truly care, they would have gone to their spouse with their issues and not someone else.

Realistically, the wayward DESTROYS the marriage, the wayward has made the marriage an open marriage without telling the betrayed. If the betrayed goes out and seeks companionship with someone else at that point, its 100% the waywards fault. Had the wayward NOT cheated, the betrayed wouldn't be doing this action now.

Funny how waywards want their cake and eat it too. Waywards made a oath to stand by their spouses, but they go out and sleep with someone else, hence bringing a third party into the marriage. Also they put the betrayed spouse in great danger. The betrayed spouse does not know if the wayward now has any STDs or if the waywards AP is plotting to destroy the betrayed even more (Perhaps physically but definately emotionally.)

Again, 100%, the wayward is responsible for the fallout of the relationship. Theres no ifs ands or buts about it. Their actions (well destruction) is causing all the pain and actions to come.