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Burnt, when you are ready for all this to end.. when you are ready to stop this abuse and start working on the new Burnt.. when you are finally done with his disrespect and abuse, when you are ready to make your stand, let us know.

You will have to have the strength to do what it takes. However, we can help you with many things that you can do.

This will never end for you until you reach that point. You will have to draw a line and say "this, and no more."

If it happens that you lose this relationship after this, you were going to lose it anyway. I have a prediction for you if you continue. It may not be what you think...

If you keep doing what you're doing...

1. Your husband will not change and suddenly believe he's had enough. He will not come to you and say ok, I will now be the husband you always wanted.

2. After a lot more suffering on your part, you're emotional attachment to him will die. You will not care anymore what he does. This is you hitting your emotional bottom.

3. You will start living your life without him. He may still be in your house with you, but you will no longer be seeking his affection or to come back to him. You might start divorce proceedings. You might not. You might start working on yourself. You might not.

4. He will see this in you. It will scare him. If you are actually starting to work on yourself to make yourself better while you are not caring about him, he will notice this too.

And here's the kicker...

5. He will start trying to win you back.

And the final sad irony...

6. You won't give a shit anymore.

If you wait and wait for something to change when it is not going to happen, you're love for him will die. For good. There is a very good change that your soul will be terribly damaged by all this. I know it already is, but don't believe for a minute that it can't get worse.

I'm so glad you are still here. I'm choosing to believe that the stuff we're saying is having an effect. We all feel for you in this terrible situation that you're in. And the hard thing for us is that you just can't see ... well, you can't see your situation from a more detached perspective. That's impossible, isn't it? :) But we're trying. You are going to have to come to these conclusions yourself. We'll keep pointing the way. Just remember, this all ends when you say it ends. You can't make your husband do anything. You can only control what you will do. You can't make him stop, but you can influence it. Maybe. You absolutely can get this poison out of your life.

You said he was your first real relationship partner. You see, relationships are not like this. You've only had this one and yes you weren't perfect. You need to do much work on yourself of course, but there are people who will treat you well. They will love and respect you. Nice people. You can't see your future without your husband but I'm telling you there is one. It's possible. And if you start to think that way, you can be stronger with your husband now.

Teacherman,

I feel like crying reading your post. It's like you read my mind. That's the path I see myself going down. I feel like my love for him is dying a little more each day this goes on. I was sure this morning that I was going to start staying with relatives tonight, but my resolve softened thinking about how much I hurt him and I came home as usual. It makes me sad. I feel needing him less and less. Even when he holds me I feel this painful distance starting in me, that I don't know this new BH, that he's changed from the man I loved before. Thanks for your understanding. I want to work on myself, to be better, more confident. I don't think there's anything I can do to change him right now. Part of me wants to leave, but DD is so happy to spend time with BH I feel like I'm the only one making problems in their happy interaction. It's so hard.

This is just my opinion, but when you say he "tolerated your shortcomings" as long as he believed you were faithful...well, that seems to be kind of a difficult foundation for a relationship. Not to mention a really shitty thing to say.

Teacherman is right...all relationships are not like this.

I don't think there's anything I can do to change him right now.

There's nothing you can do to change him.

Ever.

There never will be.

He can change himself, if he chooses to, but you can not change him. Not right now, not ever. Only he can.

Part of me wants to leave, but DD is so happy to spend time with BH I feel like I'm the only one making problems in their happy interaction.

You're going to keep your daughter in a toxic situation and continue to be treated badly because she seems happy?

Burnt, please take it from the mom of a daughter who seemed happy - by the time she starts to show that she is not happy it will be too late to prevent the damage.

My daughter seemed happy and fine. She seemed strong and resilient. I thought she was "coping well."

Right up until the time I found her bleeding from self-inflicted cuts on her wrists and arms. She's been in therapy for months and her dad and I are now physically separated and almost divorced. She is recovering and making progress. But, BA, my daughter had to hurt herself before I figured out that she only seemed happy ... and that that didn't mean she was.

My daughter is older than your daughter so it may well take longer for you to realize that she is not as happy as she seems and she's not okay.

Please, I get that you don't respect yourself and you don't feel that you are deserving of kindness and being treated well.

But what about your daughter? Does she really deserve to live in an environment that is toxic? Does she really deserve to witness her mother's degradation? Do you really think that if your husband is unhappy and you are unhappy that your little girl isn't picking up on that stress?

You need to get your daughter out of the situation.

It doesn't mean you cannot work on your marriage, Burnt. It just means that right now it is very likely that you cannot work on it while living together.

And sometimes we have to give up what we want the most for the best interests of our child.

I would still be in my marriage, still taking his crap (yes he's the WS but I was taking the punishment) and still begging him to change and treat me well. Except for the damage I saw it doing to my daughter.

I want to reconcile with my husband. BUT my daughter is finally content with her life and mostly happy now that she's not living in a tense and toxic home. She hasn't cut herself or hurt herself in anyway since we moved out. Her panic attacks have stopped.

So as much as I want to reconcile I know that right now that is not in her best interests so I am shelving that desire. Maybe forever, maybe just until she's out on her own ... I don't know. But I know that I love her more than I love my own life and I will lay it down for her. Metaphorically and literally.

Please Burnt, think ... really think ... about what you are doing to your daughter.

If you keep doing what you're doing...

1. Your husband will not change and suddenly believe he's had enough. He will not come to you and say ok, I will now be the husband you always wanted.

2. After a lot more suffering on your part, you're emotional attachment to him will die. You will not care anymore what he does. This is you hitting your emotional bottom.

3. You will start living your life without him. He may still be in your house with you, but you will no longer be seeking his affection or to come back to him. You might start divorce proceedings. You might not. You might start working on yourself. You might not.

4. He will see this in you. It will scare him. If you are actually starting to work on yourself to make yourself better while you are not caring about him, he will notice this too.

And here's the kicker...

5. He will start trying to win you back.

And the final sad irony...

6. You won't give a shit anymore.

If you wait and wait for something to change when it is not going to happen, you're love for him will die. For good. There is a very good change that your soul will be terribly damaged by all this. I know it already is, but don't believe for a minute that it can't get worse.

Take these words to heart.

Burnt - Have you read up on the 180? It's not just for betrayed spouses and it's not a tool for manipulation. If you follow it in it's truest sense, it is a tool to help you on the road to becoming emotionally independent and healthy. :)

Please Burnt, think ... really think ... about what you are doing to your daughter.

this...times a gazillion....it's time to put her first...it's clear that you don't have it in you to put yourself first, so, PLEASE put her first...she doesn't deserve this....neither do you but since you are having a hard time accepting that, then think about her. Think about her future. Think about her sanity. Think about her safety. Just think about her....

I want to add this about kids.

Kids know way more than you think. Think about your own childhood. Do you remember picking up on the tension between your parents? (if that applies of course - I don't know if your parents raised you together) I know I always picked up on the tension between my mom and dad.

I remember thinking "If I am better then maybe they won't be mad."

Kids blame themselves. I found out much later that this is common.

Couples who are having terrible problems will sometimes have one or both saying that they are staying for the kids. The truth is that if this is the case, then it's a bad idea.

Dr. Phil says it very well. Kids would rather be FROM a broken home than IN one.

One of my biggest regrets - and I am saying I think of this almost every day - is that I completely failed to model for my sons what a loving, caring relationship is supposed to be. My youngest says he will never ever get married. This hurts me in a way that's difficult to communicate. It hurts me that he feels this way because I know it's my fault.

You know, you are going on instinct and I understand that. But instinct fails us in situations like this. We are in so much pain and our instincts say "Stay. Hang on with everything you've got. Protect the child. Seek stability. Resist change." etc... In reality, the best chance for your marriage to make it is to do the things we are advising. And I'm here to tell you I completely understand how much of what is said here goes against your instincts. We all know it.

It's sort of ironic... The best chance of saving your marriage and keeping your family intact is to do things that would seem to go against that.

You don't want to remain with your husband if he never changes, right? There is nothing wrong with insisting that he change his behaviors as a man, father, and husband right now.

You know how you remember something sometimes...

I can remember a night where xww was lying in our bed and I was on my knees beside my side of the bed. I had my elbows on the mattress and was facing her direction.

I was in so much pain. It was 6 months after our dday and she was unmovable. I talked. I argued. I wrote long letters. I swore that I would be a better husband. I was doing and saying everything I could think of to "win her back". I was in tears, but not weeping. She could only criticize me and respond with anger.

The thing in particular I remember was putting my face in my hands in frustration and saying "you may not like it if I'm not fighting for you so hard."

That was where things started breaking for me. Against all advice from SI (eyes rolling) I took her abuse for a long time and SHE was the wayward spouse! How dumb is that, right? Burnt, I've really taken a special interest here because I believe I know what you are doing and why. And I hope that my education and experience will help you. Maybe you can salvage your marriage. I lost mine. I did everything I possibly could think of, but it didn't work. I know now what I should have done differently. And... it's what I'm advising you to do. It's what everyone here is advising you to do.

I actually know the moment where I should have said, "Ok, that's enough." If you're ever interested I can tell that story. Have you noticed that I can go on and on sometimes? :) And I think if I had done that, we would have had a much better chance of success, I would have avoided almost 5 years of misery, and maybe my sons would have seen a real loving relationship.

[This message edited by Teacherman2000 at 11:23 AM, October 5th (Tuesday)]

BA, I'm just glad your starting to get a little angry...maybe that will finally help you make some changes.

Also, have you given much thought to changing your title to BW and his to WH...cuz that's reality now.Re-read this thread.

(((BA)))

"tolerated your shortcomings"

Just want to address this part.

As a BS I too tolerated a ton of crap from my H under the guise of it being a trade off for him being faithful.

Now that I know he was never faithful, I am pissed that I took so much crap, pissed at him for dishing it out and super pissed at me for tolerating it.

That said, I cannot fathom treating my H as your H is treating you because of that.

It is not logical, it is wrong. Sure I do not put up with the things I did before. That is logical. But that is where it ends. I do not "do" things on purpose to get even or to make up for all that I tolerated. It is my responsibility to work through this area without causing harm. I was not forced to "tolerate" I choose to, just as your H did.

You are getting great wisdom here, keep on processing it.

Grace

JSS,

I intentionally left my status as WW and him as BH because I am the one that strayed first. It seems unfair to call him WS because I know with absolute certainty that he would never have steped out if I hadn’t. He feels it’s so unjust because he says it’s such a rare quality in men, and I didn’t know how good I had it. His behavior after DDay is not anything like the H I knew, and his claim that we’re no longer married but somehow makes me feel it’d be wrong for me to do the same now, seems like bull shit. But he said I already broke the marriage, so there’s no betraying on his part, and I do buy that. I don’t know what to believe. It feels wrong, but when he explains to me it seems to make sense and I think I am seeing it wrong, that I’m selfish to think this way.

It seems unfair to call him WS because I know with absolute certainty that he would never have steped out if I hadn’t.

somehow, my jaded self does not believe this. i don't believe people just turn around like this out of the blue. and i don't mean having an RA, but having numerous, and some quite healthwise risky, As.

[This message edited by icbtih8 at 12:26 PM, October 5th (Tuesday)]

BA,

This is where you are wrong. You do NOT know that your H wouldn't have strayed. You are engaging in a cognitive distortion. You are assuming acts not in evidence.

This board is FULL of BS who NEVER strayed, not even when/if the WS had multiple A or a LTA. We CHOSE not to have RA, not to stray. Did we hurt? HELL YES!!! Did we cheat? HELL NO!!!

My H couldn't make me cheat if he wanted to. I wouldn't put another innocent woman and children through the hell my H's and OW's A put me and my kids through.

No, you H had choices. He CHOSE to cheat. HIS CHOICE.

Please let go of the false assumption that you have any control over what your H thinks or does. You don't.

I intentionally left my status as WW and him as BH because I am the one that strayed first.

Ok....so it would be appropriate to say you are

the FWW/BS and he is the BH/WH.

He is cheating on you continuously and you are still legally married.

It feels wrong,

Sweetie, this is your little inner self trying like hell to save you from this man.

I'm not kidding or trying to sound flippant or trying to condescend..

That little voice you are hearing in your gut, listen to it...it's the real you..she is trying to help you.

I intentionally left my status as WW and him as BH because I am the one that strayed first. It seems unfair to call him WS because I know with absolute certainty that he would never have steped out if I hadn’t.

Rubbish.

You don't know that he would not eventually have "strayed" for some other reason.

I am a betrayed spouse. I was hurt beyond belief by my husband's choice. We had many issues in our marriage. There were quite a few reasons, even before the A, that could have justified either of us saying, "I cannot do this any more."

I was every bit as betrayed as your husband.

Newsflash - I did NOT cheat. I did not engage in a RA. I did not drag my husband into the RA and make him an unwilling participant.

He feels it’s so unjust because he says it’s such a rare quality in men, and I didn’t know how good I had it.

Bullshit. There are many men who have been faithful. Look around at these forums at how many WS are women. Look at how many BS are men. Look at the number of men here who have been betrayed who are still faithful to their wives.

It's not that uncommon of a trait. He's manipulating you.

His behavior after DDay is not anything like the H I knew, and his claim that we’re no longer married but somehow makes me feel it’d be wrong for me to do the same now, seems like bull shit. But he said I already broke the marriage, so there’s no betraying on his part, and I do buy that.

More bullshit.

These forums are full of betrayed spouses who did not engage in an affair after learning of their spouses infidelity.

There is NO excuse for what he is doing.

I don’t know what to believe. It feels wrong, but when he explains to me it seems to make sense and I think I am seeing it wrong, that I’m selfish to think this way.

This is called gaslighting. It is a massive (and apparently very effective) mind fuck.

Yes, you fucked up. We all agree on that point.

But now he's fucking up.

And together you are going to fuck up your daughter's life.

Please read my previous post to you. I am speaking from the experience of having a daughter who was anything but fine and happy.

You need to protect your child from your husband's outrageous behaviour and your enabling behaviour.

Your daughter deserves better.

You didn't break the marriage. You broke the trust with your affair.

He IS now a wayward spouse. In a very real way his breach is worse than yours. Your's was not done to hurt him. He is specifically trying to hurt you over and over.

His claim that his purity "is such a rare quality in men and that you didn't know how good you had it"... Oh. My. Gosh. I'm trying not to go into a rage right now.

(If I were talking, this would be with clenched teeth) That claim of self-righteousness is hollow. No substance. You don't profess that you have a "rare quality of men". You just have it. Professing it and using that statement as a bludgeon to further degrade you completely negates any goodness that he seems to believe he has.

He is not acting like a "normal" (whatever that is) betrayed spouse. NO ONE goes from being a good, kind, faithful, loving human being to being like he is now because of an affair. This is very likely who he really is, although maybe an extreme version of it. Some posters have alluded to the possibility that he has not been the faithful husband that you thought he was before your transgression. I have avoided going that way with my posts, but I will now.

BS's are floored by our spouses affairs. We feel indescribable pain. Many of us fantasize about revenge affairs. A small few of us do it. Most of them that do immiediately recognize the horror of what they just did.

Your husband went from a great, loving, and faithful husband to this person he is now by turning on a dime? One day - faithful. Next day - multiple partners with your knowledge and blaming you.

I now believe that revealing your affair made it easier for the person he is to you now to become public instead of hidden. He was always this way. You just gave him reason not to hide it anymore.

You've made your agony, regret, and remorse plain to him. You've made your wishes to reconcile known. you are his wife.

Read this carefully...

There is no way a good, kind, and loving man would do this to anyone, no matter his pain.

He is kicking you when you are down. Repeatedly. From every angle. I wouldn't do that to a dog, much less my son's mother.

You deserve better. Everyone deserves better.

BA, I knew 100% that my husband would never cheat, and he did. And that doesn't give me the right to abuse him.

And I don't think fidelity is such a rare thing in men that you should have been expected to fall down kissing his feet and worshipping him for not cheating, which is what he seems to think.

OK, this won't be well thought-out, but do you see this pattern . . . he seems to think that because he was such a good perfect man, one of the very rare faithful ones, and he condescended to be with you, despite all your many flaws, that gives him the right to feel MORE betrayed than the rest of the betrayed spouses in the world, you know, because he was so much better than you anyway and was doing you this huge favor of being with you. Therefore, he gets to be more angry and act out more than the rest of us ("us" being BS).

Do you see how insulting this is to you, not to mention all the other betrayed spouses in the world? "My wife's betrayal was worse than anyone else's because I'm so great and perfect and deserve it less than anyone else?"

His arrogance is unbelievable.

[This message edited by JanaGreen at 1:41 PM, October 5th (Tuesday)]

BH emailed me to tell me that he's sorry for making me feel so bad. He doesn't know how to cope with this, that he wakes up to sadness and it's there until he sleeps that he doesn't know how to go on. He can't stand being away from DD, but there's nothing i can do or say to fix any of this. He's not trying to be callous. He's just at a loss of what to do.

My heart breaks reading his pain. He really doesn't want to be the way he's been. He's just so lost in pain he doesn't know what to do. BS's, please help. I find what helps me lessen my anger is feeling compassion for him. Shifting the focus from victim to care turns the feeling of sadness to love, but I can't tell him that. He wouldn't be receptive to anything I have to say about what would help him for obvious reasons. What will help him feel better?