SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Tiredeness is part of the depression. You and your doctor have to figure out the best medicine + dosage and it takes sometime to figure it out.

Eat healthy, exercise and sleep is the best you can do meanwhile.

It's just this kind of place

yeah.

Go visit aBUNCHA them attorneys up in big D - they become the ones she can't use from then on. Though it's a no-fault state, generally, judges don't like boyfriends.

L.O,

I mentioned before that it was my belief that you can't heal or move forward without your WW's hard efforts.

But the sad truth is that I don't believe that she will do the hard work necessary to try and save the M. At least not with the current status quo.

She sounds like a conflict avoider(except when SHE makes the conflict), and I think that she is capable of staying this course for a long, long time. Because the truth is--you are her safety net. And she knows this. She doesn't have a chance to hit rock bottom because you won't allow it.

As long as you are there trying to save the marriage, she will have the subconscious belief that she is protected from the harsh, cruel world.

I can't stress how important detachment is for you. I can't tell you how empowering it is when you know in your heart of hearts that if you leave, it will be HER LOSS--not yours.

And by no means am I using the word empowering as a control tool over your WW. I am talking about you felling like you did(or close to) before D-day.

Can you EVEN remember how that felt?

It was taken away from you---YOUR SELF-BEING---without any regard or care. It was done in the most disgusting, cruel, and selfish ways possible---and I'll bet that you feel that you can NEVER feel like you once did.

It's like the Sword of Damocles---always directly above you---just waiting to strike.

You have to rid yourself of these chains. The best thing that could possibly happen to your WW right now is for you to become indifferent overnight. If she woke up tomorrow, and saw you packing a suitcase to leave for good, she would either (1) give up, because you said she quits easily, or (2) would cling to you ankles BEGGING you to stay--and to finally do whatever is necessary to save this marriage.

Either way, you will be the better person for it. Because you can't fix her. And if she isn't going to do it, where does that leave you?

Palerider is right on with leaving your WW questioning your whereabouts. It goes to the message that she needs to understand---that you are NOT her safety net...and you will not always be there for her.

Until she truly understands this, she is not going to do the work needed---on herself OR you.

I swear that being a rational, analytical person makes it that much harder to cope with infidelity. Because we feel that we can make sense of anything. We can plot a course out of this hell. We can make sense out of nonsense.

And it makes us that much more insane when we can't do the above. We don't have the "gift" of compartmentalization like waywards do. All we have is our rationale---and it doesn't help here. It is the opposite of how we feel and what we feel we should be doing that is most effective. That is why it takes the newly betrayed so long to come around---because we have to go against our ideas and beliefs of what can possibly save the marriage---to have a chance at saving it.

I hope that makes sense...I can get long in the tooth. But the bottom line is---the current way hasn't been doing it...at least not fast enough. Prepare yourself as if you ARE going to leave---because that is what is going to get you to a better mental place.

Keep us posted, friend.

[This message edited by jb3199 at 8:58 PM, April 20th (Wednesday)]

Nuance - will try to do that, thank you.

jjct - I have all her emails, too, if it comes to that.

jb3199 - She certainly is a conflict avoider! I am trying to detach, but the catch-22 is if I really leave just to get that feeling back again, then I'm not saving the M, and yet to save the M I have to leave. If I did leave, she would simply give up. She wouldn't cling to my ankles, even if she wanted to. I should still try to go out on my own more and see what that does, she might not care or it might even give her the opening to do it again. You're probably right that being rational and analytical makes it harder to deal, and I certainly don't have the "gift" of compartmentalization like she does.

I sent the new MC a description of what hasn't worked and what we need to be dealing with - the infidelity, not the marriage. We'll see what they say, but if this is our last-ditch effort to save the marriage I hope they're good.

My wife broke her silence tonight and told me that she did love me and that she was trying. I told her I loved her, too, even if we did get a D. I asked her if she read the book I gave her, "How To Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair" and she said she read enough of the beginning and skipped ahead and she doesn't agree that she needs to do any of that. She accuses me of reading things and then feeling them because I read them. Amazing. She still doesn't want to do the "heavy lifting" - not one finger's worth of effort. She just wants to be nice to me, cook, clean, and do the laundry, but she doesn't want to even begin to understand the turmoil I'm going through as a result of her infidelity.

LivingOn ~ I have stumbled across your thread tonight. I have only read through page 5...so I have more to read soon.

The details of our circumstances here on SI vary. However; it all boils down to the same pot of crap. I am so sorry you need to be here. I am so glad you found it.

I always tell my students...Go with what you know. If you don't know something you need to know....start with something you do know.

You know the truths of God.

You know who you are inside.

You know who you belong to.

Study the Word if you don't know.

I have really been struggling with depression myself. I am taking the generic form of Celexa now. My husband says he can tell it is helping me. I don't necessarily feel a lot different but I am glad I am able to behave "better."

I don't know how to kick this depression. I do believe that I am going to be SAD!!! For God's sake....I have a DAMN GOOD REASON TO BE AND SO DO YOU!!!

Keep posting.

Keep reading.

Keep breathing.

Keep trusting.

Beauty for Ashes

Hugs and Hugs and Hugs

Bueno Serra LO,

she does do all the things my mother did growing up (most of the time) like cooking, cleaning and laundry, but I can't accept that as unhealthy either.

No, that's not what I would have been looking for. There are all kinds of healthy marital relationships and who cooks and cleans is not real important, I don't think.

I was more interested in asking if there were any patterns you felt developed in the early part of the relationship that could have persisted - and not to find blame. If one of you tended to hang back, or if you two tended more towards one or the other's friends, if one person tended to caretake the other or etc. The stuff of symbiosis. In the first Rockie movie, he explains his relationship with Adriane (from memory here) "ya know, we fill gaps, I fill her gaps, she fills my gaps."

I found myself initially agreeing with jb in that I think you must define yourself apart from the poison in the marriage. However I am not a fan of your behavior serving as a warning to her. I urge you to act on behalf of your health and well being but not as a reaction to what she does or doesn't do.

She still doesn't want to do the "heavy lifting"

and,

She just wants to be nice to me, cook, clean, and do the laundry,

Man, is that familiar. You are not alone my brother. Once again, there is a lack of maturation; A child can do outrageous stuff and get a "do over" but adults don't get that. I think this is what's going on.

but she doesn't want to even begin to understand the turmoil I'm going through as a result of her infidelity.

That's the narcicissm, LO. A lack of empathy. It is a particular problem in this case becasuse, unlike a death in the family, feeling-with your pain is to acknowledge her own shame. And the narcicissm is a primitive defense agaist...feelings of shame.

Your depression is job 1. Let's make sure you are taking care of you. Those inflight announcements always say "in the event of a cabin decompression, first place your oxygen mask around your mouth and nose before ...")

She was also reading stupid women's magazines like Cosmopolitan

You mean that crap where they do a readers survey about relationships, and all the women with fake tans, fake nails, dyed hair, implants, pushup bras, control top pantyhose, false eyelashes, and a wardrobe selected to hide their flaws respond that they are looking for honesty in a relationship? Yeah, I have seen them in the grocery stores over the years with cover stories advocating prostitution (as long as it was high priced) and a whole lot of other crap.

Another book that might help is Infidelity Crisis: How to Gain Forgiveness and Respect After Your Affair, and this one is downloadable instantly for $20 payable through paypal.

It provides a fairly good overview not only of the actions the WS must take, but an explanation of why they should and which aspects of the betrayal and recovery those actions are adressing.

ETA: It is not that long of a book, and each chapter starts with a blocked text section of biblical quotes that are meant to be relevant but can safely be ignored for those not inclined to read them.

[This message edited by aesir at 3:53 AM, April 21st (Thursday)]

idealist - that's a pretty good memory! We do fill each others gaps, except when she gives her attention to other men and lets them fill her gaps. Then I am left with huge gaps.

Wrote this yesterday:

I just learned that she told our "mentoring couple" that I had decided we would stop meeting with them, and that I wanted to "change direction." They called me and wanted to meet anyway, to at least wrap things up. I told them that was news to me, and I had no idea she said any of that.

I talked about it with her and we got into another discussion. She told me she was trying, but she didn't want to read that book and then she blamed me for the whole thing all over again. It got so heated that she also removed her wedding ring, she just gave up. (Mine has been on my desk for about 3 days.) She said cruel and horrible things and it just made me feel sick and extra depressed and I had to lay down. I wish I could tell you all that I remained strong and went out for the evening, but I'm a wreck. She started to feel bad and apologized. If she was really sorry she would read that book, so we started to discuss it.

I told her she was a narcissist and she compartmentalized. She thought about it and agreed.

Something interesting happened. Call this Trickle Truth Day, because she told me that the book was making her feel so guilty that she had to tell me there was more to the story she hadn't told me before. It had been bothering her the entire 10 months! I KNEW she wasn't being totally honest with me.

The new details were:

* She met with an additional guy for lunch at a restaurant, but they didn't even touch. (Still bad, though!)

* She met with one of the guys she told me about an additional time for a picnic.

* She met the guy I was told was her first PA another time - for a movie - where they made out the entire time.

* The biggest one - she let me draw a wrong conclusion about which PA came first. The guy who made her spray was the first PA, not the second, and it happened on a different date than she told me! She told me she was going to a meeting with a group she meets with, but didn't go, and went to screw this other guy instead. I remember the day - I took the kids to lunch and even emailed her that we missed her and loved her. I have pictures I took of the kids, too.

Writing this today:

Right after she told me all of that new stuff, I re-asked her many of the same questions to see if I'd get any new answers. They still wore condoms and there wasn't any more PA's, but there are a few details that are different. He told the one guy she had the EA with who I was and what I did, etc. (She told me she didn't before.)

She told me all this because it had been bothering her for a long time and she didn't want to tell me any more that would hurt. She thought the movie thing would be really bad because that's what we loved to do together. Yeah, but to not tell me??? What about the sex?!?! I thought we loved to do that together, too!

She said the book, "How To Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair" called her arrogant for withholding details she knew I needed. It said some other things, but it made her tell me. She mentioned she told our "mentoring couple" and another mentor she has at the church, and one said it was up to her to tell me and the other said she should find a time and tell me. Bad advice and good advice, respectively.

Within 30 minutes of her telling me all this the "mentoring couple" arrived.

As difficult as it was to hear all this, and experience all kind of things all over again, it was still helpful. It showed that she did want to make things work and if holding these secrets had been bothering her so much it would make sense she would want to constantly dodge the issue whenever I needed to talk.

The mentoring couple was nice and they were still helpful in restoring another attempt at making it work and saving the marriage. I did have a strong disagreement with one of them about the bible being 100% all you need to get through this, and I equate it to brain surgery - if you need it you can pray and read the bible, but you should find a brain surgeon, too. Same thing with this. She disagrees, and has been cheated on by her late husband, but for some reason she seems to not remember what it's like to go through it and she had a very different background and experience through it than me. Anyway, we left on a good note.

When they were gone, I asked her if she wanted me to stay or if she really wanted me to leave her. She said every time she said she wanted me to leave or every time she hurt me, she cried because she felt so bad and that she couldn't believe she did that. On one hand, she wants me to not hurt and said she would prefer I would leave, but mainly she would be devastated if I did leave and she does not want me to. She wishes she could take it all back, wishes she would have been in a car accident and would rather have died, but she really wants us to be able to get through this and heal from it. We each took our wedding rings and I told her I am only putting mine back on if she agrees to go through that book and maybe others like it, and commit to doing the hard work (heavy lifting) even if it was uncomfortable. She did and we put each others rings back on.

I found myself back in detective mode trying to remember what was happening and piecing it all back together again. It's strange to experience all this again, and to undo all that was previously believed. We talked about it more later in the evening.

I started to sweat again, and I had nightmares last night and crazy dreams. Woke up at 4:30 and couldn't go back to sleep.

Still, I am less depressed right now.

I received an email reply from the new MC we are considering and they told me they agreed the affairs need to be dealt with head on, so I see that as positive, because we have never really had that from anyone (except for the first couple we met with that was our one and only meeting). They also are recommending I get additional counseling to address my symptoms, but that costs money, so I'm not sure yet...until I get back to work again.

I think she realizes that it's her shame and guilt that are keeping us from dealing with the affairs and keeping us from healing, and she needs to face it now.

aesir - that book you recommended looks great. I might get that one as well after she finishes the one she's reading now.

Thanks again everyone.

Questions - since she left out some things, how is this supposed to be handled? Is it a good idea to go through all the details all over again now that she really is out of the "fog?" That way, maybe she can apologize for the way she described certain things and address some of the damage, like, "he gave better oral than you" or whatever. I know some of it is just plain true, there are facts that are undeniable, but I would like to figure this out. I asked her if she thought her spraying had anything to do with his technique or his size or if it was just the adrenaline rush of cheating, and she said she wasn't aware of him doing anything if he was and thought it was just normal sex, but he may have been hitting a certain spot just right and she wasn't aware, and she thought it could have been the intensity involved in cheating, too.

Now that she's willing to dissect everything and figure things out, for herself and for me, I have a renewed hope. But a little bit of renewed pain, but for some reason I would rather have this pain than the kind that comes with the knowing she is withholding information.

I'm a little confused, but I'm enjoying the respite from the deep depression that has been paralyzing me the last several days.

Winston Churchill once said, "When you find yourself going through hell, keep going!" With so much to deal with and the wounds so fresh, you are going through the worst of it, LO. It is a good thing to keep on keeping on, as best you can. You're doing great although I can imagine it doesn't always feel like that.

It seems to me that your wife has been deeply conflicted about her feelings for you. Note that this is entirely separate from whether or not her feelings are rooted in reality or fairness or "You" as a person. It can be the things she feels ashmaed of and guilty about, the stuff she projects onto you and unrealistic expectations she has of you, etc. There just seems to be some undealt with resentment and/or anger there.

The stuff she said about the other men was, well, just mean, or maybe "retaliatory." Bigger was right, too. The biggest sex organ is the brain and sex is not like gymnastics or ballet - there is no numerical award for a specific performance. Hit that double flip just right in gymnastics and you get a 9.5 or whatever. But the same "performance" in sex might be a ho hum 5.2. It all depends on how the participants are invested in the act. If she was married to whatever guy this was and had the affair with you....It would be YOU who were the sex god and he wouldwondering about your size, technique, whatever. I obsessed about this stuff, too. But over time it came to be less and less important/painful to me. (Although that it is a part of the marriage history is still grotesque for me.)

I know some of it is just plain true, there are facts that are undeniable

I disagree for the reasons listed above and some others.

since she left out some things, how is this supposed to be handled?

It further supports the idea that is untrustworthy right now, but trickle truth is plain old common, so I wouldn't make it a huge deal.

now that she really is out of the "fog?"

I haven't seen this be a linear path in most cases. There may be ups and downs.

maybe she can apologize for the way she described certain things and address some of the damage, like, "he gave better oral than you" or whatever.

I read this as you wanting to be treated the way someone who has been so traumaticaly wronged by another should be treated by the person who wronged him. I hope she will do that for you, but I also hope that you are prepared to heal whether she does or not.

Because you're recovery and healing are the first priorities. I don't think it is wise to predicate your healing on her help, her mental health or her even coming along. I hope she acts as a remourseful FWW, but she might not. So I say, take care of you.

Have you ever heard the sermon about the pious man that refused to move?

Once there was a pious and devout man. He placed all his faith and trust in God and was a pillar in his society. One day the authorities issued a flood and storm warning, filling the TV stations and radios with warnings and notifications, telling the people living in the man’s area to move out of danger. The man told his neighbors: “No – God will save me. He enabled me to build this great house and I place all my trust on him.”

Eventually the whole area is deserted. The local Sheriff knocks on the pious man’s door and suggests he leave. “No – God will save me”.

The storm comes and when the waters start rising the man flees to the upper levels of his house. Looking out the window he sees some rescue guys in a boat. They offer to help him escape. “No” he says; “God will save me”.

The waters rise. Eventually the man climbs onto the roof where a rescue helicopter team sees him and offers to save him. Guess what? “No – God will save me”.

So what happens? The waters rise even higher and the guy dies.

Since he’s been good and pious all his life he arrives at Heaven and demands a meeting with God.

“God – why didn’t you save me?”

“Friend – I sent warnings, I sent the Sheriff, and I sent a boat. I even sent a helicopter. How come you never LISTENED to me?”

The basis of our Christian religion is the free will. Your friend that says all guidance can be found in the bible – he’s probably correct. But it won’t be direct. It won’t be “If your WW goes on CL and gets greater sexual satisfaction than with you…” It will be in the form of a message that you can apply to YOU (not your wife) and how YOU should react.

Ps. Since we are on spiritual issues: The tile of your thread – you aren’t in Hell. Hell is eternal. Hell is where YOUR actions and behavior gets you. I would rather say that you are in the desert and your faith is being tested.

[This message edited by Bigger at 12:49 PM, April 22nd (Friday)]

Hey LO,

As far as true remorse and the fog, I believe it does take time. FWH looked at the situation as if it was a mountain under a microscope. He could see that there was damage done, but only saw a tiny fraction of it. As time went on, he has gotten to see the full impact of his actions. It is not unusual for him to call me from work crying and apologizing, or to wake up in the middle of the night sobbing and begging my forgiveness. He says he will burn in hell for what he has done.

On the other hand, our situation was much different from yours. FWH confessed, he was not caught. He did trickle truth and gaslight for a period of time, also remained in contact with whore for 46 days. But it seems to me that Craigslist is an awful lot to forgive. That is a really, really tall mountain to climb.

I am so sorry for your pain. I hope you can figure out what is best for you.

So strange, that today was such a good day compared to the last several days, yet as I try to sleep my heart pounding is back in full force. It's so incredibly intense that it takes my breath away, I feel it in my head and all the way through to my finger tips. It seems to be unrelated to my conscious thoughts, but it does remind me of all the things I would be disturbed about. Even when I don't think I'm thinking about it, it's still going just as strong. I even took my Inderal, and it's no better. I've been trying to sleep for almost 4 hours now, but my heart pounding won't let me - I'm tired enough to fall right asleep otherwise.

So I give up - I'll just sit here while my heart pounds away...

ideaist - love that quote! Although I hate that it's been hijacked by a country song - sticks in your head.

I think you're right again about my wife - there's something to that for sure.

It would certainly help to believe that if she were cheating with me that I would have been doing all that to her instead...if I can only make that belief stick maybe I can live with it easier.

So you think she could be going in and out of the fog at this point? I have been thinking she is out of the fog but that she just has difficulty with her guilt and shame, so she keeps it secret, compartmentalizes, and goes into denial or something. She did fling some blame my way again though yesterday before breaking down again, so I suppose that's possible. She admitted to being wrong about it right away though.

As long as she remains open to discussing the details, the less I need to know and the less it will bother me. So I think I could heal without asking, but I need to know that I can ask and that she'll tell me. There are certain details I haven't asked about because I don't want to know the answers, and I know all the major stuff anyway, but little things like, "did he kiss your breasts" and things like that - I'm pretty sure that happened but we didn't get into those things. I don't know if it would make it easier to know, but most of the stuff I've been told was a lot less bad than I had imagined it would be, except for the spraying.

I have an appointment with a professional counselor on Monday, and he will help me with the payment since I'm unemployed. I just hope he's good! He's not on the Peggy Vaughan list, but hopefully he knows how to help this. We also have our first appointment on Tuesday with some new MC together, and they seem to know a little more about adultery than who we're seeing now since they agreed it needed to be dealt with head on.

Bigger - great story, and very appropriate. I'm trying to listen to all these things and I'm being told to stay in the house, where I'm going to drown!

Regarding the bible and the Christian faith and free will - when she told me what she did, she included several moments when she was thinking about changing her mind or "outs" that she had. They would call and convince her to change her mind back again and so she did, things like that. Or when she showed up, she was considering turning and leaving but she knocked on the door anyway. Or when they saw how nervous she was, they seduced her and made her feel more at ease to go through with it. All those little moments are huge to me, and they have been a great source of agony for me in addition to the actual sex acts. Those are the moments when the bible talks about how God will always give you a way out, and she didn't take it. I was thinking about that reference as she was telling me, but she wasn't thinking of it as she was telling me what happened. It hurts, bad. That's why when one MC tells me this was predestined to happen and God meant for this to happen, it sends me through the roof. It did NOT have to happen. She had a free will, and could have chose to not do this, to change her mind, to take those "outs," but she didn't.

As far as the faith relates to me, of course it is being challenged in a big way right now, but I'm trusting I will see something in the future that will make this experience somehow meaningful. Although I would trade this one back for anything. I know I need to work on forgiveness as well, still loving my wife, things like that.

I know I'm not literally in Hell right now, and obviously I'm not in Heaven either, so since it's not Heaven we can't expect everything to be perfect in this life. I know. But seriously, it feels like I'm in Hell, and I was meaning it more as a figure of speech.

shattered123 - I can see how that is - I think even I did that myself - as a coping mechanism. Focusing on one little thing and in denial about how big it is. I have literally grieved every single detail, said or unsaid.

So when you say FWH - that is "Former," right? Meaning you divorced? I think he sounds truly sorry for what he's done, when he calls you like that and tells you he will burn in hell for what he's done, that is true remorse! I would think it would be easier to forgive someone when they have reached that point, although I'm well aware of the suffering you are experiencing as a result of his actions. I find that I wish my wife would have full forgiveness from God more than from me, because I may not be fully capable of forgiving to that extent. At least if she can't get it from me, at least she'll have it from God and won't believe she will burn in hell. I think I've forgiven her enough to at least want that for her, the assurance that she won't burn in hell. The cheaters always have David for hope, although now I have a hard time understanding why David is a "man after God's own heart" after doing what he did. (Notice your quote in your sig...! I've had a hard time reading anything David wrote.) Anyway, I am really glad your WH is as sorry as he is. But like you, I bet you wish he didn't have anything to be sorry for in the first place.

Tall mountains to climb, indeed.

Just a couple of quick things since it is so late here LO.

FWH does mean former wayward husband, but that does not mean divorce around here. (That would be XWH.) It means that he is no longer cheating, and shows that he likely has true remorse.

As for the fog, just like real fog, there are stages to it. There is deep in the fog where no light can shine through, and as they come out of it there can be a wispy stage where it comes and goes, and they aren't really in or out of it.

I believe this is because as they start to face reality, some of it they can accept and face, and other parts their ego is not ready to face yet, so the fog reappears as a defence mechanism. If she goes back into the fog at times, I am willing to bet that this is while confronting the most devastating and unforgivable(to her) aspects of the A.

bible being 100% all you need to get through this,

My apologies if I am taking this statement out of it's proper context, but IMHO this is indicative of extremism, and it sadly reminds me of the news story a few years ago where the couple refused to give their diabetic child insulin because they believed God would heal the child. The child died. Sadly, these types of literal thinkers don't seem to understand that the insulin IS God at work.

Your take on things,

and I equate it to brain surgery - if you need it you can pray and read the bible, but you should find a brain surgeon, too.

IMHO is the healthy approach. I would run like crazy from this so called 'helpful' couple. People like that scare me.

With regards to your heart pounding, THIS IS NOT HEALTHY! Please, please get back in to see your doctor! This is NOT normal. I think I mentioned previously the same thing happened to me, and I found out it was due to my thyroid.

You must take care of yourself. Do you want to drop dead and leave your two little girls without a daddy?

[This message edited by painpaingoaway at 8:26 AM, April 23rd (Saturday)]

Your friend that says all guidance can be found in the bible – he’s probably correct. But it won’t be direct.

Bigger, as usual, is correct. It is all in there 100%. The problems start when counselors see "success" only in terms of the couple staying together, no matter what. That's why they like to trot out the story of Hosea and never mention God writing out a bill or divorce to Israel for adultery. LOL.

Hey LO,

Hope you are doing well. A brighter day is in your future, I promise. With the infidelity, losing your job, etc. this is a "perfect storm" and you are still functioning. You are doing well. Naturally there is stuff to take care of.

The pounding heart, shortness of breath etc sound like the physiology of PTSD to me. (Remember, I am not a professional- I give a damn, though.) PTSD affects the limbic system (particularly the Prefrontal cortex, Amygdala, and Hippocampus). The "alarm" condition feels real even if the threat has abated or disappeared. The good news is that the treatments are generally very effective (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, for example). This should offer some relief.

To me it does sound like you are still living through the trauma and are in "fight or flight" mode. And that would suggest you might find relief in de-fusing your thoughts from the fatcs of the events. Here's what I mean: Imagine a new salesman. He thinks, "I have to make a cold call on a possible client (what he was doing). He then thinks, "I feel nervous and sick." (What did he start struggling with psychologically?) He associates this psychological state with worries. (I am such a loser, why did I take this job.) Notice that the only REAL thing is the cold call, the rest is stuff he came up without "thinking" about it. Yet the ways we use language drive us to accept the whole pain train as "fact."

We create the world we live in. That's the message - no, I don't mean you created the infidelity. But what you do with it as the trauma recedes will be your creation. Here's another didactic parable-ish story to illustrate what I mean:

There are these two guys sitting together in a bar in the remote Alaskan wilderness. One of the guys is religious, the other is an atheist, and the two are arguing about the existence of God with that special intensity that comes after about the fourth beer. And the atheist says: "Look, it's not like I don't have actual reasons for not believing in God. It's not like I haven't ever experimented with the whole God and prayer thing. Just last month I got caught away from the camp in that terrible blizzard, and I was totally lost and I couldn't see a thing, and it was 50 below, and so I tried it: I fell to my knees in the snow and cried out 'Oh, God, if there is a God, I'm lost in this blizzard, and I'm gonna die if you don't help me.'" And now, in the bar, the religious guy looks at the atheist all puzzled. "Well then you must believe now," he says, "After all, here you are, alive." The atheist just rolls his eyes. "No, man, all that happened was a couple Eskimos happened to come wandering by and showed me the way back to camp."

I urge you not to force things to happen more quickly than they will. We, as males, are taught to "work harder" etc. But right now you are in a "fog" of your own - the hormones wracking your brain and body. Let things unfold and you will make the best choices.

Much love and respect.

Hey guys - so here's the latest...

My FWW (thanks for the clarification, aesir) has been reading more of the book on "how to help your spouse heal..." She is feeling like it's beating up on her but she is committed to reading it and she even discusses some of it with me. Last night she picked up the book "How My Husbands Affair Was The Best Thing To Ever Happen To Me" which she had started but never finished. (I hate that title, btw - I will never say that about my wife's affairs - the worst thing to ever happen to me!) I asked her why she was continuing that one instead of the other one, and she said because it wasn't casual reading and it was more like a work book, and she needed to take notes, etc. All in all, her effort has really helped lift the fatigue of the depression and I'm able to function much better now during the day, even with the lack of sleep. I also think the upcoming meetings with new MC's is something that is giving me hope, and also a way to put off what I don't want to deal with now and I'm somehow able to pretend it will be dealt with when we have those meetings.

I had my first meeting with the "professional" counselor today, and he told me to pay him when I get work and can afford it, so that was nice. He was very nice, and said most of his clients are dealing with infidelity, and he said he understands it as though he has been through it himself, but, he has not actually experienced it firsthand. (When I asked he said, "no, thank God.") Maybe he does have a better understanding than most who have not been through it, but I can't imagine how you can actually say you know what it's like without experiencing it yourself. Anyway, so he was still nice, and he listened, and here's what I got out of it: He said; "Don't take it personally" and "It's not about you." About my wife, he said, "she must have been abused" and "she has some major issues" and "she needs some counseling that would take at least a year..." He also told me that if I had been a therapist/counselor I would have recognized the signs, and we discussed some of them, which I now know how to recognize, just way too late. Regarding my heart pounding at night he just said it was an anxiety attack and I shouldn't worry about it. Although he was really nice, I struggle with the value of meeting with someone who just listens and tells you these kinds of things. I've read all that before in books on the subject and they cost a lot less. I often wonder, "what can anyone possibly even say to me that will be helpful?" I'm getting most of my help on this forum with all of you, actually.

Tomorrow night we meet together with the new MC's from our friend's church.

Another strange thing is that when I'm on the upswing, getting encouraged and having a few "good days," my wife seems to be on a downward spiral. I try to encourage her to keep up her spirits because I know it's hard on her, too, but I need this effort from her.

Here's one for the counselors: She says she feels bad about herself when she thinks about sex, so she doesn't want it now. What I'm thinking is, she just doesn't want sex with me. When she was meeting with all those other men, she wanted it all the time, but it was residual runoff from how turned on she was getting by the other men, and then it was only because she felt guilty that she would have sex with me. So when we do have sex now it's like she's just doing it out of pitty. It sends me into a spiral having to deal with all that, causing more self esteem issues, making me even more angry at these other men and it makes everything hurt even more.

aesir - nice description of the "fog." Makes more sense.

pain - I think it's because they don't understand that surviving an affair like this is not just someone in the playground calling you a name. It's much more serious, like the insulin example you gave.

pale - I actually mentioned that today when the counselor said to me, "you probably already read about Hosea..." I said, "yeah, and I'm sorry but that story just doesn't help me at all. If God told me this was going to happen and it was going to serve a purpose like that, then maybe I could deal with it by now, with having 18 years to prepare for it..."

Anyway, my take on the Bible is that it has all the answers in the sense that it's dealing with eternal issues. I also believe science lines up with it, but it's not really concerned with every detail and so that's why there's not an encyclopedia inside. God gave us brains to figure these other things out, and some of us have studied some things better than others - like how to perform brain surgery, or how to heal from an affair.

idealist - "perfect storm" is right. I have been diagnosed with PTSD and almost forgot about that. Regarding the treatments, you mentioned CBT - are you familiar with the book, "Feeling Good" by David Burns? It mentions CBT but I haven't read it yet.

Great illustrations - there's a slight variation of your second example in "The Screwtape Letters," by C.S. Lewis. When the prayer gets answered the demon tries to convince him it was going to happen anyway or it was just luck, something like that.

I'm not really sure how to re-create my world, to take advantage of your suggestion to de-fuse my thoughts from the facts of the events. In your salesman example, I guess I'm thinking about what actually happened, and maybe I am thinking "I am such a loser." I know my wife did all this and I didn't, but she's my wife. You see where this leads...? (rhetorical question, since you know what it's like to go through this.)

Your last suggestion to just let things unfold certainly takes the pressure off, although I do want to get this over with asap. I recently read "Man's Search For Meaning" by Viktor Frankl, and it had some excellent points, one of which was to not worry about things so much in order to take the anxiety out of it. So, if you can't sleep, then don't worry about it - just stay up until you're tired. Trying to sleep causes anxiety, so don't try so hard. Maybe your advice to take all this slower is similar advice, and if I don't force it as much I can take the edge off.

Another thing Frankl said in his book, was that man can endure all kinds of suffering, as long as he knows the reason for his suffering. I think that's the main problem I have with this situation - it's so damn pointless. I do not see a reason for my suffering. There is no great purpose for which I am enduring all this. It's meaningless, pointless, and worthless, and there was no reason why it had to happen. The only "good" that has come out of this so far is that I have more compassion and understanding for people who attempt suicide because now I understand how someone can hurt that bad. Maybe I'll go back to school and become a therapist so I can help others. Other than that, it's not worth it and I wish it never happened. (With this kind of attitude, I don't know if I even could help anyone else.)

Reading through this post probably seems like a bi-polar rant. If I had a good joke, I'd put it right here to sign off with.

Seriously folks, thanks so much for all your advice and encouragement. It's better than a one hour session with a professional counselor! :)

She says she feels bad about herself when she thinks about sex, so she doesn't want it now. What I'm thinking is, she just doesn't want sex with me.

What is probably happening is that sex - for now anyway - is a trigger for how she hurt you when she had sex with those other men. Like you, she may experience some mental movies that cause her shame and guilt.

When she was meeting with all those other men, she wanted it all the time, but it was residual runoff from how turned on she was getting by the other men, and then it was only because she felt guilty that she would have sex with me. So when we do have sex now it's like she's just doing it out of pitty.

IF your wife was sexually traumatized when she was younger, it is possible that she may have developed Dissociative Identity Disorder. In other words, the woman she was when having sex with other men, may not be the same woman you know and love.

It sends me into a spiral having to deal with all that, causing more self esteem issues, making me even more angry at these other men and it makes everything hurt even more.

Your feelings betray you from the truth that your wife is a very sick woman who needs - and has needed - professional help. The counselor is right when he told you that this is not about you but about her.

Look all this psychobabble is not to excuse her behavior or to make you feel better about yourself but to put some much needed perspective to a bad situation.

What is probably happening is that sex - for now anyway - is a trigger for how she hurt you when she had sex with those other men. Like you, she may experience some mental movies that cause her shame and guilt.

I think that is the case, which is giving her the benefit of the doubt. I'm pretty sure that when she "wants" it now it's only out of guilt as well, but at least that shows she's trying. Still it's all a head-twisting way to live. I'm really trying to just let things go and move on because I'm so tired of dragging all this around with me, but it won't let go of me.

IF your wife was sexually traumatized when she was younger, it is possible that she may have developed Dissociative Identity Disorder. In other words, the woman she was when having sex with other men, may not be the same woman you know and love.

I looked up DID and learned that's the new and improved name for "multiple personality disorder." I would LOVE to believe that, but I can't. It's not that I don't want to let her off so easy, it's just that I don't believe it. She knew exactly what she was doing.

We had joint MC last night and she told them the version of why she did it, that she wasn't happy with me and she didn't love me and wanted to just pack her bags and leave me, etc. So she went out to do all this so I would divorce her. She also said she did it to hurt me on purpose. She cried and said that she realized she did love me and was sorry and horrified at what she had done and wishes she hadn't now, and that she was a different person then - not to say DID or MPD - just her heart was bitter when she shouldn't have let it be bitter. She acted out in an immature way, but "she acted." We all make mistakes, but she made the worst mistake you can make in a marriage. I mean, clearly she's sorry and she doesn't want me to leave now, so I am left to deal with whether or not forgiveness is actually truly possible in this situation. My alternative is to divorce her, and then we have a broken family. I will probably find someone else and re-marry (according to statistics and because I'm so awesome, just not as big as others) and then we'll have events like birthdays and holidays that will be extremely uncomfortable for us and the kids, who will grow up with a thick air of disgusting and unhealthy vibes that will effect them and how they turn out.

Both paths are rough and won't be fun - R or D. The MCs said that if we stick it out on the R path, we will end up happier than if we go down the D path. They said when we get through the worst of it, they would hope we would say, "I would never choose to go through that, but I'm glad I'm not the person I was before this happened." I don't really see that for me, (although I would NEVER choose to go through this), I think I'm going to be worse off as a person having gone through this. I may have more capacity for empathy, sure, but that's it. I still feel like a part of me died that will never come back to life. For my FWW, sure, I'm glad she will be a different person; one who would never do this, ever. I think that's where she's headed; a belief that is made stronger when I see her efforts.

Another thing the MCs said, is that they see other horrible problems, too, like when the wife leaves the baby for just a minute and when she comes back the baby is dead. That's a pretty horrible thing a couple can go through I'm sure, and much more sympathetic to the average person who can empathize more for that than an affair.

They were nice and they were helpful, and they made sure my wife knew that she had to answer any questions I had at any time, no matter how many times I asked, and to make sure to not leave anything out and get everything out on the table if that's what I want. We haven't heard that kind of perfect advice from anyone we've seen since the very first people we met with (which was our one and only "emergency" meeting with them).

Your feelings betray you from the truth that your wife is a very sick woman who needs - and has needed - professional help. The counselor is right when he told you that this is not about you but about her.

On one hand I understand this, and yet at the same time I am having difficulty with this. I know she needs help, of course, and she's on the road to getting it. But when I hear that it's not about me, I understand that I did not do this or cause this or make any choices involved in her actions. But, she is my wife, and she said she did this to hurt me, and she said the experience with the OM were better than me, and maybe it was the adrenaline but there are some facts that make it difficult to ignore she wasn't just saying it to hurt me - she was being honest. So I am competing with other men, with my own wife! And losing! Besides, we've all been through this here, right? Does someone telling you "it's not about you" helpful to any of us? Okay, so let's just accept that it's not about us; does it make the pain go away? At all? Not really, for me at least.

Look all this psychobabble is not to excuse her behavior or to make you feel better about yourself but to put some much needed perspective to a bad situation.

Agreed. I do desperately want to make sense of all this. I don't think there's much anyone can say to make it feel better. Maybe making sense of it is just a way of building a foundation for which to deal with it.

If anyone has been told anything from their MCs or therapists that has been helpful I would love to hear more.

Thanks again.

((((LivingOn)))). I'm so very sorry for your pain. Her words hurt as much as her actions, I understand that. The morning after our first DDay my xWH told me he liked being with the OW and wanted to see her again. Wow...talk about a blade through the heart. But here I am FIVE years later thriving on my own. You WILL get through this...I knot it's nearly impossible to imagine, but the time will come where you can live and enjoy life again. I PROMISE.

Until then, take each day as it comes. I found that I couldn't tackle an entire day at once, so I lived hour by hour. When I got up I decided I'd get through 10am...then I set my new goal to get through 1pm...then I'd work towards 4pm...eventually I had made it through an entire day, and the next day I'd do it again. I did this for about a week until I stopped watching the clock. Sounds crazy, but it helped get through those days.

As for counseling, you definitely need someone whose expertise is in infidelity and perhaps sexual addictions. The counselor my ex and I first went to allowed him to TAKE HIS TIME to decide what HE wanted...like you, I was blamed for his actions. I took responsibility for my part in our troubled marriage, but it was HIS choice to cheat, as was your wife's.

The Healing Library has wonderful articles on how to deal. I agree that exercise will help you MENTALLY more than anything else.

As for the other men being 'better' than you, you were married for SEVENTEEN years...she used that as an excuse to justify what she was doing. Obviously you were very pleasing for your marriage to last so long!

Keep coming here for support, we are all here for you and will help you get through.