SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

So ... I see your position as standing for the proposition that my dating openly after telling my WW I was DONE with our M, at a time when she said she couldn't bear breaking all contact with OM to keep our family intact ...

... is the same as me walking in on her in our marital bedroom with (one of) her OM, finding out she had 5 OM over 4+ years of constant lying, deceit, exposing me to STD's, etc.

The bottom line is that different people will look at things differently. Why is it that anyone, particularly an original WS, can't accept that there are other opinions out there on this issue?

What I mean is this: I've read the opinions of people whose views on this issue are the exact opposite of mine (including the OP on this thread). I respect that position, and sometimes I think those who hold it make some valid points. But I don't pull my hair out and proactively start threads telling them that they're wrong, they have no values, morals, etc.

Wouldn't the equivalent be one of the MH's you're referring to starting a thread where they attacked BS who don't have an RA as being "cuckholds", weak, etc.?

I've just never understood the fierce, almost visceral, backlash against people who look at this particular issue differently.

Silver, i completely agree with you, but the high road argument is very common, and often i feel associated with more religious undertones about the sacredness of the marriage. To some anything we did short of courting after divorce is finalized is an affair, and just as bad as what the wws did to us. The whole “just another justification” argument is then applied, painting every scenario like ours with a broad brush and categorizing is as in the same pool as the people who betrayed us. To me, casual sex is nothing to be ashamed of, when single, and not bound by the UNBROKEN vows of marriage where gross disrespect, humiliation and neglect have not tainted the relationship. So while what we did worked for us, and was an actual solution, some will always hold their noses up to our actions as equally horrid to what our cheating spouses did, end of story. To some , until the court processes the divorce paperwork, we are cheaters even if the marriage is over. And not every relationship after the dissolution of a marriage at a cheating spouses hands has to be serious. Emotional bonds don’t need to be created and love doesn’t need to be established between two single adults who want to have fun. As long as honesty and transparency are at the forefront, no one is getting hurt. We don’t need to be committed to enjoy relations with others, as long as we aren’t being slimy about it. But again, I digress, we are just as bad as the original cheaters... SMH

So while what we did worked for us, and was an actual solution, some will always hold their noses up to our actions as equally horrid to what our cheating spouses did, end of story.

I don't think its a solution. Divorce is a solution. But when my XW basically told me she would keep fucking and sucking as she pleased, excuse me if I found some ass for myself.

Randy you’re right solution was a poor choice of words...”legitimate option” would have been better

Actually if you are like SL and reconcile or attempt to and in order to consider that you need to level the playing field a little then maybe it is a solution. But that would require going against the SI way and therefor would be invalidated.

Double post.

[This message edited by Randy1133 at 12:02 PM, November 20th (Monday)]

There are things in life that are right or wrong. Good or Evil. Don't feel people are being judgmental when observing the boundaries of right/wrong, good/evil.

I just don't get how one can say an affair is wrong for the original WS but it is right for the BS. However one wants to rationalize or justify that. Whether you feel the marriage is now "open" (btw, that is not how true "open marriages" work, but okay) or that your sense of and need for justice is so strong or the need for leveling the "playing field" (which I totally don't get, where is this "playing field" being talked about here?) it is still justifications and rationalizations.

If you look at the original post on this thread there is absolutely no denigrating of a WS (aka MH) in that post. Just expressing shock that many feel that is an appropriate response to infidelity.

eta: FWIW, I do feel it is a different situation if the original WS is totally unremorseful, continuing their affair, has no desire to change and or reconcile. If you are both agreeing the marriage is over, that the intent is to divorce, I wouldn't necessarily consider the BS having sexual relations with others before the divorce is final as infidelity.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 12:49 PM, November 20th (Monday)]

What does it say, though, to be "shocked" that some people disagree with you?

In order to determine whether this should "shock" anyone, wouldn't we need to go to the proverbial "reasonable man/woman" route? E.g., go to any public place and ask 100 people whether (a) what we refer to here as an "RA" can be justified, or (b) that having an "RA" under all circumstances is the exact same thing as what an original WS did.

Unless only a vanishingly small percentage of people choose to answer the poll with option "a", why would you be shocked?

I'm shocked because i've been here a while and have never seen people HERE counsel other people here that a RA could be a way to make yourself feel better. and I lurked two years before I joined.

SI does have a standard and that is that it doesn't promote affairs, for any reason.

100 random people in public probably haven't been BS or WS. but everyone single one of us here have been. we know what it feels like. these are the people I'm concerned about recently suggesting that this is a viable option.

my marriage was never open at any time, from my perspective. affair or not. an open marriage does not include hiding and lying.

The shock, I feel, may come in when the BS wants to reconcile and the WS is remorseful and willing to do what it takes to reconcile the marriage yet the BS feels the need and feels it is justified to go fuck other people. The shocking part is the justifications people use to do it. It is no better than the original WS's justifications for infidelity. It is shocking that people continue to do the mental gymnastics it takes to justify their affair in response to the original WS's affair. And, they still want to maintain that they are on the moral high ground in doing so. They were better in having an affair than the original WS's because they have real justifications.

IDK, twisted logic to me. BTW, I don't find it shocking. I find very little shocking since my own d-day and joining SI. I am no longer shocked or surprised that people have such low bars for themselves yet expect others to rise to a much higher bar.

eta: we crossed posted, sewardak, so I understand where your shock is coming from. Yes, I can see how that is rather shocking. I believe I posted earlier in this thread about what people here at SI are supporting now as compared to when I first became a member. Yes, it is rather surprising, but I am no longer shocked.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 1:40 PM, November 20th (Monday)]

I’m with you, sewardak; SI has never been a place where continuation of infidelity was viewed as an option for getting out of infidelity. I, too, miss the voices of the MHs who would describe the long-term damage they did to themselves with the decision to have an RA.

I have to note: many proponents are relatively new to SI, and haven’t seen, over time, how the absolute certainty they’re right may evolve over times. That, too, can be a tricky and thorny lesson to learn.

I’m in the A is an A camp. Doesn’t mean RA didn’t occur to me—that the thought didn’t linger. It means that wrong IS wrong. Broken vows are not the equivalent of ending a marriage. We ask why our WSs didn’t leave before cheating? Well the same applies to BSs contemplating RA. End the marriage—don’t blameshift the “ending” to your spouse’s infidelity because there’s still a very real and very valid M in place. D takes care of that.

I don’t know anyone who, over time, continues to consider an RA a field-leveler. I don’t know anyone who continues to believe it had positive effect. It doesn’t mean there aren’t any. There are, I’m sure. But even more, there are new MHs (or vocal ones defensive of their successful long ago RA, unaware that for the vast majority, it pours water on a grease fire), eager to make what they did “right.” They choose to see their infidelities as different from their WSs’. The WS, the argument goes, ”broke the marriage” with the first infidelities.

The BS-turned-MH without remorse does not yet (and may never) see that this is the same sort of wayward thinking his/her WS used when describing the myriad ways the BS “broke the the marriage” before they cheated.

I wish everyone peace and genuinely hope that, for those who’ve chosen this path, it IS the right one. I strongly believe it is not for most, having been here for many years more than my date below suggests and having seen vociferous proponents conclude they were tragically wrong—and I’d caution against the recommendation of RA as a valid approach to “healing” when, in fact, it generally adds a great deal more from which to heal.

[This message edited by solus sto at 2:06 PM, November 20th (Monday)]

I hate this holier than thou bullshit. If you don't have an RA or RONS then fine, good for you, but please spare us your high horse. What people do after they discover their marriage is open is not for any one to judge. Just make sure you don't fuck a married person when getting your revenge. Then the only victim, if they care, is your spouse, and honestly fuck them.

I was gonna stay out of this thread but this is awesome Randy!

Why the hell does anyone care if someone else has an RA or not?

We can read all these painful stories of multiple d days, TT, gaslighting, MC, IC, EMDR, PTSD, books, etc., but an RA shocks you?

I would say the in your face hallpass is better than an RA any day. I'm not going to sneak around and lie. My WW can take a bite of the ole shit sandwich. If she doesn't like it, she can GTFO. Not every BS is willing to be a doormat martyr to the marriage.

I'm going to say this- if you find out your spouse cheated on you and you don't have intentions of reconciliation, then why should you be forced to wait months or even years for the divorce to be final? That's not fair at all, and it's pointless(unless kids are involved, in which case I could see this making sense).

On the other side of the coin, if you intend to r but decide to have an RA to "even the score", IMO all you will discover is that you can feel even more pain and self-loathing than you did on D-Day.

I think I will take a hard pass on that one.

I'm shocked because i've been here a while and have never seen people HERE counsel other people here that a RA could be a way to make yourself feel better. and I lurked two years before I joined.

SI does have a standard and that is that it doesn't promote affairs, for any reason.

Where have you seen anyone promote or council others to engage in an RA? I've heard people share their experiences with it, but I've never heard anyone tell a BS to go download Tinder and find some NSA sex to get your wayward back.

look two posts above.

Perhaps it applies to those who know whether consciously or subconsciously that an A is an absolute deal breaker. Although I didn’t leave and divorce right away, i thought maybe there was a chance...i realized i was not a martyr nor a victim. So for me, what you would consider an RA by whatever logic, was me already moving on as a single man. Cheating because of being unhappy in a marriage, or just being selfish, and lying about everything (TT gaslighting blameshifting) is what makes cheating...cheating. Exploring the single landscape after declaring the marriage over whether legally or not... is dating. The difference is honesty. Like anyone out a relationship...you want to meet new people and enjoy life. Not sit and stew and brood over love lost for years to come, but always knowing you have remained faithful when they were not. Now i agree that going out to sleep with others to inflict pain on the WS is both fruitless, and damaging to ones self. But redefining ones own wants and needs in adjustment to someone else’s mistreatment of your boundaries is not abnormal... it’s healthy. As everyone has said... the BS owes the WS nothing after Dday. The future of the relationship is fully in the BS court from then on.. so if we openly and honestly say we view the marriage as dead, and that we intend to divorce and move on... there is no justification there. There is only honesty about ending one life path and discovering others. The piece of paper it is written on is not the defining line... the emotions attached are. I will also agree that those who want desperately to forgive and R but need the revenge may suffer more in the long run if they stay...because of additional pain and emotions. But for those who are almost positive it’s over, it’s just a push needed to make the jump. Im not arguing in favor of RAs in general, I’m saying that everyone’s situation is different. But what gain could I possibly have for suffering in Cuckoldry while awaiting divorce, and how is it really better for my values or morals? You talk about wayward mindset being the driver for it... but I’d disagree. Never cheated before on a GF, haven’t since. Never felt like my boundaries were weak, despite temptation being ever present. I treasure those in my life who love and respect me, and that’s not going to change. And the one relationship in my life where you could argue in technical terms that I cheated, i never committed the crime of deceit. I expressed my feelings, that this was a dealbreaker for me, and i needed to move on. Because it was true. Also told her she was free to move on too. So maybe, it’s not a question of whether Revenge affairs are right, it’s a question of what a revenge affair really is.

Again, no one is recommending to a BS to have an RA. This thread is about sharing your opinions on an RA. If anyone recommended that in JFO, I think that would be crossing the line for the purposes of this site. But RA's do happen, alot, and just saying "yea, I get it", doesn't mean that you are out promoting it.

[This message edited by Randy1133 at 3:24 PM, November 20th (Monday)]

Randy, I have read at least two threads (probably more) where it was recommended having an affair to the BS as a way of healing. Yes, actively promoting infidelity. They were originally BH's and at least one of them did have an affair and was now a WS/MH. Because you haven't read those threads doesn't mean that it wasn't posted. I wish I could remember the member's name/when/thread but I don't. I do think there is a thread rather recently (but I didn't read it) where it was recommended, also.

IDK, I feel like that RA thread recently just poured gas onto a fire that was really only simmering (referring to a disagreement on this issue).

When you see me or Randy or Nice or Dee posting about this, we generally throw some nuance in there. You might consider that justification / mind gymnastics to justify bad actions, but obviously we view it differently.

I think the difference between us and that other recent OP who created that thread is that we aren't so brash about it.

That was my Daily Double.

[This message edited by SilverLinings55 at 6:54 PM, November 20th (Monday)]