SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I would give both my arms to be a BS instead of a WS anyday.

BA,

YOU ARE A BS. You are also a WS. Around here that makes you a "madhatter" (someone who has been both).

At this point, I would strongly urge you to think of yourself as a BS and to read the advice in the "Just Found Out" and "General" forums about how to deal with an unremorseful WS who is intent on carrying on the A.

Your H is engaging in classic WS behavior for someone active in an A. He's blameshifting, gaslighting, denying...

The 180 is what you need to do, but only until you get yourself OUT of your current living situation.

BS's, please help.

Warning - the following is a huge 2x4.

What the heck do you think we've been doing?

OMFG, Burnt, you have heard from betrayed spouse after betrayed spouse that his behaviour is NOT normal, typical, usual, or acceptable.

We've told you time and time and time again (7 full pages in this thread alone) that he's manipulating you.

We've predicted his behaviour and yours. Repeatedly.

Why ask for our help now? We've been giving it and all you've done is tell us why your situation is different, why your husband is different, why his pain is more intense than any of ours ... so his behaviour is understandable.

Honestly, Burnt, if you won't even try to see that we've been helping you what is the point of asking for our help now?

His email to you is manipulation. I predict that by the end of the week (hell, probably by the end of the day) you'll be posting again about how he's told you that you're worthless, that he's doing you a favour by putting up with you, that your behaviour is all that matters, or he is going to cheat and you deserve it. Then he's going to do something else to hurt, degrade and humiliate you.

Will you believe us then?

Or are you going to tell us how wrong we are and how different he is?

I notice you've completely ignored the posts from me and a couple others about the effect of all of this psychotic bullshit on your daughter.

I suppose your husband is such a better parent than all of us BS's who have offered you help that your daughter will be just fine, too.

I would say I am sorry to be so harsh - but I'm not. You've come to us asking for help. Teetering and tottering on the brink of a disastrous break with reality. Every bit of help you've gotten that isn't what you want to hear, or cannot be twisted to fit what you want to hear is met with assurances that your husband is so much better, so much more pure, so much more amazing than the rest of us that his pain justifies doing things that the rest of us wouldn't even imagine let alone do.

Honestly, BurntAshes, I think you need to get over yourself. Your relationship isn't really all that different. You're a WS/BS as is your husband. And your story has been told thousands of times here.

Cheating, lying, TT, gas lighting, anger, frustrations, apologies ... we've all been there.

Listen or don't - either way, I think I'm done trying to help you because it's obvious that you're asking not for help but for justification for staying in a lousy situation and enabling him to hurt you and your daughter.

I notice you've completely ignored the posts from me and a couple others about the effect of all of this psychotic bullshit on your daughter.

Yep!!!

BA, I'll be honest. There's something not sitting right about your posts.

Instead of focusing on BS/WS...how about these three letters. M O M.

I intentionally left my status as WW and him as BH because I am the one that strayed first.

Given his behavior, I find this very, very hard to believe. His e-mail doesn't say anything other than the tripe-y BS he's been spouting. You already know what's going to make him feel better: calling you a whore in front of your daughter, forcing you to have sex with prostitutes, listening to his escapades with other women, and slapping you around every month or so. he has already explained this to you. That is your future with this man, no matter how unwilling you are to accept it.

Quit trying to fix him. He's very happy being an asshole.

Burnt, you're a good soul... We all know you don't want him to hurt.

Do you see a huge difference in mindset here? You are wondering how to ease his pain. He is hurting you personally repeatedly.

He recent email means nothing. Of course he's in pain and wants it to go away. There's no surprise there. He obviously has no clue how to heal a relationship, love his wife, or stand strong and be a man.

Your choices are exactly the same.

Continue to accept his behavior. Or draw a line and say no more. Drawing this line is the quickest, easiest way to help him heal too - just so you know.

When a child whines that they want to eat just candy, or play somewhere dangerous, or whatever, even if it causes the child to become upset because we don't give them exactly what they want when they want it - it does not mean we don't love and care for them. Quite the opposite, right? We have to be parents and do the right thing.

Your husband has been beyond childish and selfish. Just because he is in pain is not carte blanche to do whatever he wants because it freakin hurts. He last communication to you is just more of the same. If you really want this mean spirited child as your husband, then you must treat him this way - at least for a while.

You "No, you do not get to fuck other women anymore. We will go to counseling."

Him "But YOU had an affair! Its not fair! I'm can do anything I want. You have no right to stop me."

You "You can do anything you want, but if you cross these boundaries you will do them without me in your life. If you want me as your wife, here are your boundaries. Remember, there are consequences if you break them."

Him "You can't do that! I'm trying to see if I want you!"

You "You can decide that right now. Stay and be my husband, and I will move heavan and earth to be a great wife to you. Or Leave and live your life however you want. You can't do both."

This is what you must do if you are going to make it. Otherwise you will just be on the rollercoaster. He's in. He's out. He's nice. He's a jerk. He want's you. He's not sure.

It will end when you say it ends. He is not capable of doing this himself.

It will end when you say it ends

I can't stress this enough. Teacherman has said this to you several times. Because it's true - you have the power to end this.. it truly ends when you say it does....

SouthernGal,

I didn't ignore your post about your daughter and what effect all this may be having on mine. It's a shocking possibility and it's taking time for me to digest. We've stopped showing any of the ugly exchanges in front of DD and she does seem very happy when she hangs out with H. But on days when we talk all night and neither of us have the energy the next day, DD ends up watching TV in our room all day while we try to wake up. I see DD in those days and her little figure seems so lonely it breaks my heart. Sometimes she would tell me that she wants to stay overnight at my relatives and it makes BH mad when she does. I think when the tension runs high she does feel it, and it does worry me. BH keeps saying that my urge to leave is completely selfish and putting my own needs before DD's, that she needs both parents in the same home. But she must feel his sadness and despair, I know she does. Again I'm confused.

I just looked up what gaslighting is. The article sends chills down my spine. Here's part of the list of signs for gas lighting:

1. You are constantly second-guessing yourself.

2. You ask yourself, "Am I too sensitive?" a dozen times a day. (negative, in my case)

3. You often feel confused and even crazy at work.

4. You're always apologizing to your mother, father, boyfriend, boss.

5. You wonder frequently if you are a "good enough" girlfriend/wife/employee/friend/daughter.

6. You can't understand why, with so many apparently good things in your life, you aren't happier.

8. You frequently make excuses for your partner's behavior to friends and family.

9. You find yourself withholding information from friends and family so you don't have to explain or make excuses.

10. You know something is terribly wrong, but you can never quite express what it is, even to yourself.

17. You feel as though you can't do anything right.

20. You feel hopeless and joyless.

It's unsettling how many of these describe me exactly. I do know something is terribly wrong in all this. I am constantly second guessing myself. I feel wronged, angry, pain, then I get sentimental about our past, I feel sorry for causing pain, and I wonder if I'm wrong to think about myself. But I do have to think about DD. I want to listen to all the advice I've been getting. I want to do the right thing. I just don't know for sure if leaving is the right thing for me yet.

Teacherman,

Yes, this is the exchange I need to have with him. I thought I did, and he said maybe I was right last week. But apparently he only thought so "for that moment". I need to stand my ground. Part of me is still terribly frightened about what if, what if he leaves for good, but another part of me gives a sigh of relief at that possibility. This is so fucked up. I know you're right.

This is sickening me. It's dawning on me how manipulative some of his words have been. I think he actually believes them. I've felt so worthless for so long I believed that I only make bad decisions. I'm not crazy!

BH keeps saying that my urge to leave is completely selfish and putting my own needs before DD's, that she needs both parents in the same home.

THIS is the problem.

You are listening to everything your BS/WS is saying, except what really counts. He's got you so confused, to borrow a phrase from Steel Magnolias, you don't know whether to scratch your watch or wind your butt!

1) However, he's told you VERBALLY "he considers himself UNMARRIED, and thus free to do whatever he wants, because you screwed around."

2) He's telling you BY HIS ACTIONS that your marriage is over by the continued seeking out of other women to "make him happy."

3) I maintain that you and him BOTH are telling your daughter that she doesn't matter to you. If she did, you'd get out. Today. You'd SHOW her that you two (you and daughter) are worthy of love, respect, and dignified treatment)and will accept nothing less, REGARDLESS OF YOUR PAST INDISCRETIONS. Your affair was not a free pass for his assholery.

I think he actually believes them.

he does...and up until this point, so have you....open your eyes and your mind BA...

I'm going to offer an opinion that goes against the grain.

I don't believe that your BH is mindfucking you at all.

I think he's being very forthright with his feelings, with what he's doing and why he's doing it.

You put him through multiple ddays over several years of your marriage. You've not posted that any of the past ddays has caused him to react the way he's reacting now. So with the limited information that you've provided, he has no known history of acting out with RA's until now.

His first dday he forgave you.

His second dday he forgave you.

His third dday he was almost at forgiveness and then he was whacked with his fourth DDay, a TT/DDay.

He reached his breaking point!

He has clearly let you know that the two of you are now officially separated.

He has declared that the official separation is an "in house" separation because he doesn't want to be away from his daughter. That doesn't make him manipulative or controlling. It doesn't in any way prevent you from moving out if you don't like the arrangement.

He's having sex with other women and he doesn't feel it's cheating because according to him the two of you are officially separated.

There are two camps of thinking on this issue. There's the camp that believes that during the separation period, sex with a person other than your spouse is considered cheating until the divorce is granted. The other camp feels that during separation, sex with a person other than the spouse is not cheating. Your BH is in THAT camp. He's made it clear that the fact that you don't like it is not his problem or concern.

He's clearly telling you that he's confused about his feelings for you, how hurt he is and that he doesn't know if he loves you, or at least doesn't know if he can forgive you this time around. The fact that he's sharing his emotions with you doesn't make him manipulative or controlling. It's what BS's feel and say.

He's told you that although he's having sex, if you do, it will nail the coffin shut for him. I don't think that's controlling either. He's not telling you that you can't have sex just how it would make him feel if you did.

He has told you exactly how he feels, why he's doing the things he's doing and how he'd feel or react to things you may choose to do. But he has NOT told you what you can or can not do.

Because your BH has carved out a path for himself it doesn't make him controlling or manipulative.

Because you can't seem to carve out a path for yourself isn't your BH's responsibility and your inability to do so doesn't make him controlling or manipulative.

The ball is in your court.

You are responsible for you. It's up to you, not him, to decide what you're willing to live with and what you're not willing to live with. It's about no longer blaming him for how you feel or your lot in life. It's about growing up.

I can tell you're right on the edge of an epiphany BA....grab it!

Re-read your post, from beginning to end.

Keep trying to see what's really going on...not what he's telling you.

Sending you lots of strength!

Rise and Shine,

BH could have written your post, word for word. I completely agree that is the situation. I don't think he is intentionally manipulating me. But intentional or not, the way he talkes to me, beyond the affair related things, have the gaslighting effect. What I've been struggling with is if it's all me, I'm wrong in my head, or if there's any validity to my feelings.

For a moment I thought I knew what I have to do. But I'm not so sure anymore.

[This message edited by burntashes at 4:37 PM, October 5th (Tuesday)]

What I've been struggling with is if it's all me, I'm wrong in my head, or if there's any validity to my feelings

you are not wrong..there is validity to your feelings....

He's having sex with other women

in front of her.

WOW!...with all due respect R & A, he's abusing her, has abused her physically in the past and continues to verbally abuse her daily.

Second:

according to him the two of you are officially separated

.

According to him? Another WOW!...he tells her every day he doesn't want her, but then he also tells her he's trying to decide if he wants her...,BY SLEEPING WITH OTHER WOMEN...if this isn't a mindfuck and maniupulation than I don't know what is...

Burntashes

Putting your marital history to the side for a moment, everything your BH has been doing since his final dday is understandable to me.

I'm not saying that he's handling his grief in a healthy way, I'm just saying that I understand it.

ladyvorkosigan is a wise woman and offered up some very sound advice that I think you should read again and again...and again!

I think that if you love him and believe he is recoverable and that he really wasn't this kind of person all along that you are doing him a disservice by providing him an environment in which he can be a person who the pre-A him would've considered loathsome.

There's no love in what you're doing right now.

It's pure selfishness.

Your fear of him leaving you for good is far greater than your love for him.

You'd rather allow him to continue on a self-destructive path if it means that you can be with him instead of setting up healthy boundries that will help him heal if it means risking losing him.

At some point you have to do the right thing even if it means paying the consequences.

Justsoshocked

He's having sex with other women

in front of her.

I take full responsibility for every choice that I make and for everything that happens to me in my life. I don't have a lot of patience for people who refuse to take responsibility for their own lives...especially when innocent children are involved.

She wasn't tied to a chair.

[This message edited by Rise And Shine at 5:25 PM, October 5th (Tuesday)]

Rise and shine, you forgot to think about one little thing, integrity. We WS constantly hear that we could have divorced our spouse, or told him or her of our problems, that we made the choice to cheat. We had made vows and nothing is an excuse for breaking those. Nothing being the key word here.

Well burnts husband has made the choice to cheat and to mind fuck her. He has also made the choice that his vows as a husband are as abritrary has he wants them to be. Go back and carefully read the posts, he is mind fucking her. There is no integrity with this man, nor is he making healthy choices. Do you feel better bashing burnt and telling her the ball is in her court? I understand the hurt you may have had as a BS, however, bashing a WS who is in pain is below the belt IMHO.

As for the rest of the posters, who seem to be losing patience with burnt. Why would you want to give up on someone who has been and is being abused. By definition this woman is suffering from a form of PTSD. Have any idea of how many woman cannot escape thier abusers, because of being mentally and emotionally broken down time after time? Burnts husband sounds like a prime manipulator. Does anyone remember this man telling her that he became abusive, pre-A I might add, because the poor dear couldn't take being emasculated by not being able to provide for his daughter? Please have patience with burnt. She doesn't need 2x4s she needs support and to be listened to.

As for the rest of the posters, who seem to be losing patience with burnt. Why would you want to give up on someone who has been and is being abused. By definition this woman is suffering from a form of PTSD. Have any idea of how many woman cannot escape thier abusers, because of being mentally and emotionally broken down time after time?

Yes, actually I do as do I'm sure a few of us.

I understand patience, but there is a child involved that has no advocate.

There has been many people devoting much time, thought and caring to this poster and yes, if true, her situation is very sad and scary, but she has the ultimate control of this. As well as freedom that other DV victims I see daily don't have. Internet access being one thing.

Hopefully she can use the resources to generously being provided to get out of this.

I take full responsibility for every choice that I make and for everything that happens to me in my life. I don't have a lot of patience for people who refuse to take responsibility for their own lives...especially when innocent children are involved.

I don't have much patience for people who do not have empathy for anothers pain, nor the understanding of the dynamics of abusive relationships. Your posts read like you have an agenda Rise and shine, perhaps you might look at your own behavior a little more closely.

I understand patience, but there is a child involved that has no advocate.

Are you volunteering to be the child's advocate? Trying to get burnt to think rationally in a few pages of a post and then getting impatient when she does not respond in a way that is suitable to one is not going to help the child anymore than burnt's understandable feelings of fear and self doubt in light of an abusive relationship.

The trouble with boards like this, is that anyone can be an expert on anything. Some folks can't step back and take a real inventory of themselves and see what thier real motives are. I won't name names because that is not what I want to do. I am asking that we take this seriously. My wife mentioned that it is perfectly understandable for burnt to not know what to do right now. My wife has experienced PTSD. She has been the victim of my abuse for years. When she speaks I listen very closely. This is very close to home for me.

This is not the place for us to carry out our own agendas and get carried away by our own predjudices.