SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I brought up the possibility of a trial separation. I didn't say I wanted one, but that it was a potential way to feel things out with some space. My WW is open to the idea and is willing to give me time if I ask for it. She says she doesn't want to be a barrier to my happiness. On the one hand she is being very understanding. On the other I kind of wish she would fight it. I'm not entirely certain what I was looking for in that conversation.

You are too smart to fall for this horse shit. She is open to the idea because then she has absolutely no accountability on having as much contact with her boyfriend as possible. And if you are in a location where they are going to be working not remotely any time soon and possible travelling again, how can you in any way believe she is not going to go out on friendly "lunch dates" with him and his gay friend. You have stood for her having a boyfriend shoving it right in your face while you are in the same house.

When you talked divorce she shrugged that off too. It was all OK but what isn't OK is her not having her boyfriend in her life. Why on earth can't you figure this out?????

Of course she;s going to be supportive. You have just offered a hal pass to do whatever she wants and you cannot be naive enough to believe she is going to actually abide by any conditions or agreements you make.

She DOES NOT give a rats ass if you separate or divorce. She';s keeping her boyfriend either way as is the case if you stay married.

You do not fit the profile of the cuckolded husband. You're certainly not enjoying this, but you seem to be OK with her one sided open marriage as long as you have fun, bet along, get laid, and watch TV together. She has absolutely no fear on ANY consequences. when you talked divorce she just ashregged her shoulders and said OK if thats what you want. And to top it off you have convinced yourself that this OM is on a wonderful guy lever with Sir Lancelot.

You heard ONE conversation where she complained about not getting any sex from him and her friend was getting laid by her OM. All that means is AT THAT TIME THAT SHE WAS ON THAT CALL. You DID not hear anything said that they NEVER had sex. But you have also convinced your self of that too.

Again, you are smart, you have a good job, you will not be financially destroyed in a divorce, and nothing you have posted would indicate you would be a hermit without her. Yet at every turn since you posted here she has just backed you down. She doesn;t give a rats ass what you do, but she is going to get her way.

Lets recap.

She believes she is entitled to cheat if she wants to because men, not you, have done it forever.

She is surrounded by friends with the morals of an alley cat, none of whom have been discarded.

She laughs and tells them you two have worked it out. The translation of which is she still has contact with her OM, has expanded her contact with him and now his friends, but its worked out, right???

She lied to you and told you he was getting fired. Hasn't happened has it???

She talks to him and shoves it down your throat as take it or leave it

And top put the icing on the cake not a tear shed when you bring up separation.

And you actually believe something is going to change.

You are going to be in limbo a long long time. You can take that to the bank.

I appreciate the 2x4s, especially when n your signature delivery, BeyondRage.

She complained that she never got any (the eavesdropping was not on a phone call but a conversation in person).

I don't think the A is why she is open to a trial separation. Maybe she actually wants to give me time and space away from her to process my feelings if I need it. There are no friendly lunch dates.

Yes she talked to him right in front of my face about work.

She is not keeping her boyfriend, but her continuing to work there 100% is preventing R.

You have my material circumstances correct.

She apologized for the remarks about men and society and said she takes responsibility for her actions.

She has friends of poor morals, yes. Many.

She is not so sure we have actually worked things out. Our status, understood by both of us is, "not forgiven (for breaking NC agreement) and not reconciled".

She said his whole division was likely to be axed, it did not happen.

She does talk to him and report it back. She could always be lying.

She did shed tears, she was upset, but she didn't fight it.

I asked her if she wanted out. She said no.

Limbo is my current decision. Here I will remain for some time. On that we agree.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 11:53 PM, November 5th (Thursday)]

this0is0fine, your WW needs to find another job. ASAP.

was her affair exposed at work?

if not why not?

Man, tough to argue with BR’s summary.

TIF, it really reads as if you are equivocating and trying to come up with angels on the head of a pin stuff here. Look, I get it.

But this ...

Yes she talked to him right in front of my face about work.

Wow, I missed this. I’m pretty sure I’d have landed in jail by now if this had happened in front of me. I don’t know whether to admire your self restraint or to worry about your denial.

Her reaction to separation is very telling. Maybe she cried but that doesn’t say much since we all now the waterworks tactic. Otherwise, No worries. She’d like it. What does that tell you?

[This message edited by Thumos at 8:39 AM, November 6th (Friday)]

She said his whole division was likely to be axed, it did not happen.

Come on, this was just a lie so she could buy time and wheedle you into accepting the frog in a boiling pot of water circumstance you find yourself in now.

I would like to add a different perspective here.

We were in the same place at around 10 months in. H actually asked me for a divorce. I didn't really give him any resistance, but it wasn't because it wasn't killing me inside. I didn't feel like I had the right to. I felt like I needed to make it easy for him to do what he needed to do to move forward. We did in house separation. The people here told me I needed to fight, and ultimately I did.

With the situation as it is, it might sound confusing to you for me to tell you I am not sorry I did. Yes, it would have saved me from his affair. But, I did a lot of work on myself due to that second chance. And, we worked a lot on our relationship, even if that was more one sided than I thought it was at the time.

I guess my overall point is, shame is an inhibitor that can look a whole lot like "I don't care", "inaction", "giving you the space you need", etc.

You likely feel better because you expressed yourself to her. Keep doing that as much as possible. If she keeps meeting you where you are that will build something. If she doesn't, then you will know you did your best. You are always able to cut your losses and go at any time.

ETA: I did not realize she still works with this man. That's a deal breaker, dude. I had your story confused. Affairs are like addiction, without NC she's drunk.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:57 AM, November 6th (Friday)]

She complained that she never got any

And? How is that a foregone conclusion that they NEVER had sex?

According to a few men on this site, they've mentioned they're "not getting any" from their wives. That doesn't mean they NEVER had sex with her. It just means its been awhile.

Sometimes we hear what we want to believe.

ETA: I did not realize she still works with this man. That's a deal breaker, dude. I had your story confused. Affairs are like addiction, without NC she's drunk.

And on top of that she continues to manipulate the situation, lying about a corporate restructuring that would allegedly take OM out of the picture, triangulating OM's friends to get closer to him, even having conversations with OM right in front of TIF's face.

TIF, is she still telling you she can't guarantee she won't cheat in the future? My WW did this as well, you know. Just another nail. Like most of the other hurtful gobsmacking stuff she said, she later retracted it and said she didn't know what she was thinking. But the damage is done.

Hello TIF: Your thread has puzzled me for some time. I can see that you are wrestling with the fundamental idea of the definition of what "marriage" means. Certainly, there are examples of married couples with varying boundaries: multiple wives/husbands; swingers; open relationships of various types.

Yet for most married couples, committed monogamy is the paradigm. "If you wouldn't do it with your spouse present, don't do it when he/she isn't around" is the bottom line for that model. Most of us place a great deal of vulnerability and trust in our mates. That is violated if they want to live a quasi-single life.

As many have noted, if easy access to casual sex is your objective in creating an open marriage, then open marriage favors women over men, all other things being equal. I sometimes wonder if there isn't a voice within women that would prefer this. Somebody commented in some thread about the common phenomenon of married women losing sexual attraction for their husbands around year 7, whereas husbands generally don't lose sexual attraction for their wives.

Recall that popular novel from around 1990, "The Temple of My Familiar" by Alice Walker, in which the female protagonist had a marriage with a man with whom she didn't have sex. She had sex with a series of lovers who weren't her husband. In the mind of the protagonist, this allowed her to have a deep, almost spiritual connection with her husband, while satisfying her earthly pleasures elsewhere. Women all over the nation (at least the ones I knew who read the book) loved this book. It was a blockbuster success -- at least with women.

I'm rambling. I guess I'd just caution you to look deep inside of yourself for your personal truth about what "marriage" means to you, what it looks and feels like to you. Don't allow your WW to browbeat you into accepting something you don't want, or kill you with the death of a thousand cuts (which is what I think she is doing). At some point, it's okay to acknowledge that your fundamental paradigm of what "marriage" means is incompatible with hers, and therefore, for the sake of both of your emotional well-being, it is best to separate and move on, even if there is still love between you. In fact, releasing her to pursue the Holly Golightly life she craves is probably the most loving thing you can do for her.

TIF, are you content in limbo? One thing that sucks about betrayal and R/limbo is I feel like I’m wasting (or have wasted) years of my life because of my fucking wife’s stupid choices.

Money, women, lifestyle are all things that can be recovered. Time is just gone forever. Just something to keep in mind.

this0is0fine, your WW needs to find another job. ASAP.

was her affair exposed at work?

if not why not?

No. Monetary considerations, and based on the lie she would find a new job.

Come on, this was just a lie so she could buy time and wheedle you into accepting the frog in a boiling pot of water circumstance you find yourself in now.

She showed me the emails of the discussion about this.

ETA: I did not realize she still works with this man. That's a deal breaker, dude. I had your story confused. Affairs are like addiction, without NC she's drunk.

Seems like it. We agreed to "modified NC" where she reports back all contact work related or not and the details of the conversation. This is my own decision against the advice of others here. She broke this agreement to schedule and allegedly aborted coffee date with her AP. No solid evidence either way unfortunately. It was at this time I wrote my divorce letter (it remains undelivered) and was very much ready to divorce.

And? How is that a foregone conclusion that they NEVER had sex?

According to a few men on this site, they've mentioned they're "not getting any" from their wives. That doesn't mean they NEVER had sex with her. It just means its been awhile.

Sometimes we hear what we want to believe.

I was able to double check what she said as many times as I wanted. It was specifically never got any and yet it was ruining her marriage.

At some point, it's okay to acknowledge that your fundamental paradigm of what "marriage" means is incompatible with hers, and therefore, for the sake of both of your emotional well-being, it is best to separate and move on, even if there is still love between you. In fact, releasing her to pursue the Holly Golightly life she craves is probably the most loving thing you can do for her.

Yes, I have been thinking this for some time.

TIF, are you content in limbo? One thing that sucks about betrayal and R/limbo is I feel like I’m wasting (or have wasted) years of my life because of my fucking wife’s stupid choices.

Money, women, lifestyle are all things that can be recovered. Time is just gone forever. Just something to keep in mind.

I'm comfortable, but I'm not content. I think it's obvious by this thread that I'm not content.

Can you explain how you were able to double check that she hasn't slept with him?

This,in another thread, you said that the "0" in your name represents "loser" to you. Is that really how you see yourself? If so, that explains a lot. Its also very sad. You are not a loser.. you are the prize in your marriage.

Can you explain how you were able to double check that she hasn't slept with him?

I couldn't double check that, just what she said about it, in a private conversation while drunk with no reason to lie or minimize.

This,in another thread, you said that the "0" in your name represents "loser" to you. Is that really how you see yourself? If so, that explains a lot. Its also very sad. You are not a loser.. you are the prize in your marriage.

I don't know. I feel like if I stay in the marriage I am a loser. It's the "hamster wheel" thread and the thread about being torn in half. The idea of getting to a place where I'm proud to put aside my pride and actually get back to a place of trust. Instead, I feel in many instances I have essentially caved over and over, like a loser. I would be able to keep my integrity intact easily if I left. I would still have an internal struggle because it does feel like an overreaction (I know in my mind that it is completely fair).

I have tried to set and failed to enforce boundaries. Yes, I can turn that around at any point. I could demand she changes jobs now, but honestly it's too late for that. She has shown who she is an how little she cares about me in her day to day decision making. The question is, can I live with that for the time being for functional reasons and for how long.

That's the opening premise of the whole thread.

I can give good and correct advice to others on this forum. It is easy to dispassionately point out they have been harmed and have the right to be angry and the right to go get divorced and start over. It's much harder to follow through on that advice for yourself. It's not at all limited to me, you see it all over the forum.

People that have been wronged giving good advice, but because of love, going against that advice for themselves.

They can give whatever reason they want. Get the kids out of the house, transfer a business, need to sell the house first, etc. Hell, I thought I had planned out when I was going to divorce my wife and then I couldn't do it.

Ultimately, the upshot of this whole rant is that I have repeatedly failed to follow through, and that does make me feel like a loser. When I first wrote the name it was about my failure to enforce boundaries ALREADY 3 times prior to D-day.

When I tell friend in real life my story, they say I'm strong and brave for giving her a second chance. That my ability to understand her struggle and to rebuilt trust in general, is shockingly good. That I'm doing a great job at everything.

Honestly, what I feel is a pull from the anxious mind and the fear of being hurt fighting against my love for my wife and my rational mind that things are materially fine. My WW said when we talked about the separation and how I'm feeling, "It almost seems like you are stubbornly fighting your body's reaction to run."

I have tried to set and failed to enforce boundaries.

This is a common fallacy that many BS's fall into. R won't work if it is based on boundaries set by the BS. Boundaries are only meaningful if they are voluntarily offered up and self-enforced by the WS.

Consider marriage itself. Two people, without coercion, each promising to the other to remain faithful. A mindful spouse doesn't forget this, even when he/she is having drinks with a colleague whom he/she finds attractive. A mindful spouse, voluntarily and because he/she takes his/her vows seriously, adheres to the rule: "If I wouldn't do it with my spouse standing here with me, I won't do it when I'm out alone."

It feels a bit to me like you are clinging to hope that she will love you the way you love her, or the way you would love another woman.

That is to say, with honor and commitment and respect and true intimacy.

She seems like a pretty cold fish and adept manipulator and deeply self involved and self regarding.

Have you considered the possibility she is just incapable of providing real love and intimacy to you or any man?

I think in spite of her protestations I sense her initial quasi feminist reaction to you was the honest one. It lines up with her friends (and her sister - natch) who’ve all convinced themselves that women have a right to be unfaithful when they choose.

Now she gives you the occasional compassionate head tilt and then keeps doing what she wants.

It’s working out pretty well for her.

[This message edited by Thumos at 3:47 PM, November 6th (Friday)]

Seems like it. We agreed to "modified NC" where she reports back all contact work related or not and the details of the conversation. This is my own decision against the advice of others here. She broke this agreement to schedule and allegedly aborted coffee date with her AP. No solid evidence either way unfortunately. It was at this time I wrote my divorce letter (it remains undelivered) and was very much ready to divorce.

I will tell you my experience, though I don't think it would be this way with everyone. In an affair when someone is limerant though I think I am right on the money.

So, my affair was with an employee at an affiliated company to mine. He lived hundreds of miles away. He had a dday 2 months before I confessed and had mine. We had a project that we were wrapping up, and still had to communicate. We only did so through e-mail, and there was nothing at all but what was needed for work. No greeting, no closing, just the information. This still kept a connection. Hard to explain, and I don't even think that it was necessarily a mutual connection. It just elicited an emotional response from me every time.

I don't know how long your wifes EA went on, but the fact she made a coffee appt and then thought better of it tells me that likely she is experiencing limerance and is likely still having emotional responses when she has to encounter him. This is why there would be no way in hell I would ever advise that there is any kind of contact. Cheaters are often avoidant, if you aren't getting resistance over a separation under these circumstances, it may be for other reasons than shame. Avoidant means that we don't want to pull the plug and be the bad guy in the situation.

I am not trying to hurt you, I have received some things since discovering my husbands affair that were hurtful suppositions. My initial reaction is to brush them off. I just think people want my eyes open and I feel the same towards you.

This is a common fallacy that many BS's fall into. R won't work if it is based on boundaries set by the BS. Boundaries are only meaningful if they are voluntarily offered up and self-enforced by the WS.

Consider marriage itself. Two people, without coercion, each promising to the other to remain faithful. A mindful spouse doesn't forget this, even when he/she is having drinks with a colleague whom he/she finds attractive. A mindful spouse, voluntarily and because he/she takes his/her vows seriously, adheres to the rule: "If I wouldn't do it with my spouse standing here with me, I won't do it when I'm out alone."

You know she says she has better boundaries, but maybe I should have her write down HER boundaries that she plans to keep and WHY. Not that it is worth anything, as she could as easily lie on paper as through her mouth. Just something to hold her to that she can't talk her way out of or say she didn't mean.

It feels a bit to me like you are clinging to hope that she will love you the way you love her, or the way you would love another woman.

That is to say, with honor and commitment and respect and true intimacy.

Perhaps. But I also wouldn't call it hope. The question is whether I can continue on in a marriage that is not really balanced.

She seems like a pretty cold fish and adept manipulator and deeply self involved and self regarding.

If she come across as cold it's only due to the effects of my self reporting lens. She is not a cold fish. She is warm and caring, but I believe she simply has totally fucked up priorities where her care toward me isn't really any more important to her than her care toward someone else. EDIT: I mean this BROADLY as a pattern post A. This is not limited to the AP and includes friends, sister, etc.

Have you considered the possibility she is just incapable of providing real love and intimacy to you or any man?

This is definitely not the problem. She is completely capable of it and has done it for years.

I think in spite of her protestations I sense her initial quasi feminist reaction to you was the honest one. It lines up with her friends (and her sister - natch) who’ve all convinced themselves that women have a right to be unfaithful when they choose.

Agree to disagree.

Now she gives you the occasional compassionate head tilt and then keeps doing what she wants.

It’s working out pretty well for her.

This is a bit of a different question. Certainly she continues to per her own wants in front of mine. But shouldn't everyone put their own interests first to some degree? I mean what is the 180 but putting your own interests first.

I think the question is why does she continue to want to do stuff that is hurtful to me?

I don't know how long your wifes EA went on, but the fact she made a coffee appt and then thought better of it tells me that likely she is experiencing limerance and is likely still having emotional responses when she has to encounter him. This is why there would be no way in hell I would ever advise that there is any kind of contact. Cheaters are often avoidant, if you aren't getting resistance over a separation under these circumstances, it may be for other reasons than shame. Avoidant means that we don't want to pull the plug and be the bad guy in the situation.

2 months. Allegedly cancelled. Half credit here at most. Thanks for the rest of the advice.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 4:19 PM, November 6th (Friday)]

I think the question is why does she continue to want to do stuff that is hurtful to me?

That is indeed the question.

The only answers I can come up with are the obvious ones.

I gave her the divorce letter.

We agreed to "modified NC" where she reports back all contact work related or not and the details of the conversation. This is my own decision against the advice of others here. She broke this agreement to schedule and allegedly aborted coffee date with her AP.

The $64000 question that I would be asking myself is, given she has recently been caught cheating, why does she feel compelled at all potential costs to continue to have this guy in her life.. How can you possibly rebuild any trust for her knowing even when divorce is on the table, she absolutely refuses to get this guy out of her life. Unless I missed it, she is not his superior or he is not her boss. They work for the same company and obviously if his division was possibly being cut, why is there reason to continue to interact, about work or anything else.

Setting boundaries for her is a waste of your time. If possibly losing you and her marriage is not enough to keep her away from him totally, what does that tell you.

If you had not been honest with her and if she was clueless as to how much this is destroying her marriage and family, it might be understandable. This wife of yours is addicted to this guy for whatever reason and you setting boundaries that she will blow through like water is not helpful. And the only way you are going to know anything for sure is a polygraph test, which she has already totally refused.

I would not put too much stock in her words when she says she does not want out. TIF, WHY SHOULD SHE WANT OUT???? She has everything she wants right now the way it is. Despite the state of your relationship right now she made a date with this prick. And you believe it won't happen again?????

One more comment about the sex. What you do know for sure is they had at least two instances where they were alone and she was after sex and I believe you know they "made out:. Two adults. Where do you think their hands were before they called it to a stop because he is such a great guy??? Well, most folks I believe would consider it sex if they were making out and had their hands on each others genitals in some way. Do you really believe that night when she invited him into her room that he politely just said "no thanks"".

You are too smart for this!!!!!

The word DIVORCE should have her kissing your ass. Doesn't sound like it.