SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

And the hits just keep on coming!

((((William)))))

Just keep pushing! You are doing GREAT!!!

Sending strength.

thanks for your support everyone.

this is really rough to go through. id not wish it on my worst enemy.

my wife went to the hospital for a pee test to check on the pregnancy. its possible, so her dr. says, that a flu could throw off the results. in any case we will know on monday. if so, we will get an abortion (we are in no position to have another child right now). our false R was destroyed by a previous abortion - it really messed up her mind (and rightfully so) and she reacted with anger towards me and i responded with emotional distance. this time i am going to be there for her so she knows 100% that we are in this together. that we are able to handle things together, as a team or couple, rather than allowing difficulties to push us apart. we are both very nervous and she is very scared.

the revelation about her brother sparked an argument between us. we argued about

1:the list

she has decided to commit again to getting the list done quicker. she is working on it today at work and is also planning to work extensively on it this weekend. to help her i am going to go out to the park with our daughter for some hours so she has the time to get it done. she hopes to have it done on monday.

she says the list is detailed now. she is re-working it so the euphemisms are gone ("we touched" will be replaced by a more accurate "i gave him oral sex" or whatever statement) which is very good because hearing a vague euphemism that downplayed whatever happened only meant that i had to ask lots of questions which then made me feel like an inquisitor and made her feel like she was being grilled. much better to just have the truth sitting there neatly rather than being forced to dig for it which made a terrible situation even more excruciating.

she says there are some bombshells still left. nothing new but details. she said she had been minimizing stuff, both to herself and to me. she says that looking at the list as she compiles it is very painful to her and also scares her (how much there was). i can understand being scared of this list. it scares the sh1t out of me too and i havent seen it.

2: that there were other things that she had promised to do that havent even been started yet.

for example:

- a timeline (putting this massive list into some chronological order).

- a picture of each of these guys (the thought of being near them and they knowing who i am but me not knowing who they are has really been bothering me) and details about them such as where they live, work, how she got to know them, etc. she has since started compiling some of this information for me.

3: that i seriously planned on physically hurting each and every single one of these guys.

i felt that they started a game with me and my family without telling me and devised a set of rules to suit themselves. i felt it was fair to start my own game, with my own rules, and not tell them. frankly i was planning on killing them. all of them. slowly.

however, my wife has convinced me that i would (probably) eventually get caught and then that would leave both of my children without a father - which would be me and them paying a price for her shitty actions. her words sunk in and ive decided not to do it. they could have been anyone, there was nothing special about them, they were nobodies. its not worth risking my kids futures for a dozen nobodies.

4: i brought up a marriage agreement to be drafted by a lawyer in a few months. this agreement would state that if she ever behaves in an inappropriate manner with anyone ever again (covering EVERYTHING from flirting all the way up to sexual acts) then she will lose 100% custody of our daughter (my son lives with his mom in germany) and all visitation rights would be at my discretion and would be supervised. i have realized that its the right thing to do. when my wife flipped she did some crazy sh1t. sh1t that put my daughter at risk.

- she met guy 4 (the one who worked at the family business and kissed her) at the pool with my daughter.

- she had ONS 1 near our house and brought our daughter to her work where she met him (although he wasnt there BUT the guy who was there is a SLUT who cheats on his bf all the time).

- she brought LTA guy into our house.

- she told each guy she met about our daughter.

- for almost 2 years, each time she had a choice to spend time with our daughter (forget about me, just our daughter) she very often chose instead to spend the time away.

- that for almost 2 years she was always angry and screaming (not just at me but also our daughter).

- that she was sexting on her phone when with our daughter.

- that she considered more than once drinking while with our daughter but didnt.

thats just a sample. its sufficient, imo, to warrant me feeling that if she goes off the cliff again then she might go all the way off ... again. in which case i need to worry about protecting my daughter from an out of control mother.

bringing this up made me feel terrible. its a really vile thing to have to tell someone, especially someone that you love, that if X happens again then they wont be seeing their daughter again. my wife says since it will never happen again that she is willing to sign such a document. however, this was really rough on my wife. she cried. its probably alot like infidelity itself, its not nice to tell but its probably alot worse to hear about. sigh...

so thats the latest :(

I'll be honest William. #3 makes me nervous. I'm all for the rest of it. I agree with your wife on 3. If she gives you the intel on these guys, the thought of your daughter is hopefully enough to stop you. Makes me nervous though William.

Saying this is one giant pile of shyte is understatement.

yeah.

in some ways it is my mindset. most of my "career" was close protection for high risk people and the principle is roughly the same as in the marines. if caught in an ambush then you have to get out of that zone and since all directions offer a way out the BEST way to get out is CHARGE. the special operations mindset refined that mindset to catch them when they dont know you are there, hit them by surprise and from the back, and once you start hitting them ... never stop until they cant get up again. so, my instinctive and trained response is to "locate, close with, and destroy the enemy".

as much as it would be personally satisfying to grab one, stake him to the ground, and waterboard him for 12 hours until i snapped his mind ... its not the "right thing to do. i dont want to be that person. i wasnt even that person when i was running military operations. i never did anything to anyone then that i didnt have to do, i never enjoyed it when i had too, and i always tried to find a way NOT to do whatever ... if at all possible.

i cant even say its my training. its not. my training didnt turn me into a monster. doing that stuff to someone would make me a monster. in my own mind. so ... yes, i know its wrong. in one way it would be extremely satisfying. in another way it would destroy me, my wife, my children, our family, and everything else i hold dear.

but yes, i was considering it ... even so.

however, no fears. i wont do it. my wifes words of wisdom penetrated. i dont want to be that person. i wont let myself be that person. at absolute ... i wont do something so stupid that it could leave my children without a father.

they arent worth it. they are just a collection of people that could have been anyone.

i DO want to know who they are and where they live, etc. i hate the idea of being near them and them knowing who i am but me not knowing who they are. also, 2 (at least) of them live very close to my house (within 15 minutes walk ... at most). i want to be sure i avoid those areas. i want to be sure my wife/child avoids those areas. if i see them i want to know who they are. i want to avoid their work places (one works at a bank very near where we occassionally shop, for instance ... guess we avoid that grocery store and use another one instead). if i dont know who or where they are ... then i dont know where the danger areas are and i dont like walking in a minefield without knowing where the mines are. i like the idea less that my wife is walking around a mine field (going to that grocery store for instance exposes her to possible contact with the guy who works at the bank or going down a nearby street runs the risk of seeing 2 of the guys).

so .. im serious. ive changed my mind. but i still want this info to make sure that NC is being adhered to and so i can alter my lifestyle to also avoid possible risks.

I get it William. Makes me nervous though and I can see how it would make your wife nervous too. You guys are trying to turn towards each other and I'm sure that scares her somewhat.

However you are more than entitled to it and I get why you want it.

Hopefully this list will be done soon so that you can both continue to push forward past it.

I'll send your wife a pm after this weekend to check in and see how she's doing. Awful stuff for both of you.

I'm still pulling for you guys and will continue to keep you in my thoughts.

Just wanted to say that I'm glad you are pulling back on your thoughts of revenge. Can you find a safe physical outlet for the anger you feel, a way to let that energy out?

I hope the test result was false. It's awful you are having to go through a possible abortion at the same time as you are handling all of this fallout.

I hope you can give her a break from the interrogations around when she has the procedure--I'm sure she will need to feel especially safe at that time.

my wife put in some serious hours working on the list this past weekend. she says it is basically complete although there are a few other things to add to it. she did the last pages on paper and is going to re-do it onto the computer so its with the parts she did earlier. so sometime early to mid-week this week i should get the list.

i think writing out the list was good for her. i think shes seeing a bit more clearly what she did and how much it was. i see more remorse again. i think it also helped to organize her mind and to bring out things she had compartmentalized internally. burying this stuff inside is poison for her and it has to come out for her to heal too.

i did find out some rather unpleasant things yesterday that are on the list. among these things are things like multiple guys from her affairs came to see her at her workplace (mostly her previous workplace). one went into her parents house with her (no one else was home) and she had a physical encounter with him there. it feels like they have invaded EVERYWHERE in our lives. even beyond what they did and the invasion, it also hurts because before she and i lived in italy we visited the house many times there. she always refused to ever do anything physical with me there (she felt uncomfortable doing so in her parents house, even when they werent there) but she had no issues with doing so with this guy.

in addition the list of people who "probably" knew about one affair or the other at the time is growing rapidly. it makes me feel more and more that i was the only one that didnt know.

then, this morning my wife put on something to wear while getting up. same thing she wore in the pics i saw that she had sent one of the guys. later, i go in her purse to get something and find a keychain - on it the logo for the club LTA guy worked at and where she met him. then, right as she is getting ready to go out the door i see a pin on her jacket - bearing the logo of the same club. seeing them triggered some massive depression and pain inside me.

today the results of the pee test for the hospital come back. they will provide the final confirmation of whether she is pregnant or not. the home test results are completely reliable because she was sick with the flu when she took it.

in either case i intend to try to backburner dealing with the affairs and the other stuff for awhile before and after the procedure. i think she will need some time to recover physically, mentally, and emotionally. we cant put it off forever but when she is going through so much it wouldnt be wise, caring, or prudent to pile even more onto her. i will wait until she is more able to deal with additional stress before i respond to her list. i dont want to make a bad time even worse.

[This message edited by william at 5:30 AM, March 17th (Monday)]

I'm sorry to hear that your situation keeps getting that much worse. As Getting to Happy said above the hits just keep coming.

You are one of the strongest people I know william. Most people would have crumbled to dust a this point. I'm in a bad place with my own situation today. I'm going to draw from your strength.

yop

I can't believe you are still standing. You are an inspiration to me in many ways. Really you are. I don't know if I could take it. Knowing everything that I know about infidelity and what it does to the family, if it was ever done to me or if I ever did it to someone else I would just curl up in a ball and die. I know you don't have much of a choice and you just keep pushing forward because that's what you do is amazing to me. The fact that you are hanging on for dear life in a horror show is truly an inspiration whether you want to be or not. You didn't ask for it. But I think most people would have been long gone a long time ago and you continue to hang in there for your family. You are an inspiration whether you want to be or not.

My hats off to you william.

i dont know if id say worse and worse.

i find myself becoming able to accept what shes done more now. i still find some things completely flabbergasting and it definitely still hurts but im not collapsing into a semi shock anymore (at least not recently). but im starting to get there. thats a huge step forward.

my wife is also starting to become more forthcoming with facts and stating things more clearly instead of giving a vague statement that then requires a handful of questions to find out wtf her first statement actually meant. having to drag things out was hell.

some of her statements now are contradicting things she has told me earlier. sometimes only a few minutes earlier. nevver major things but definitely not what was told earlier. this is pretty brutal. each time i feel like my legs are being swept out from under me. but at least she is now telling me what really happened and is beginning to fill in the blank spots and explain the things that didnt make sense to me.

a good example is being told months and weeks ago that all of her physical encounters with her LTA were at his house. last night she told me that there was "maybe" her performing oral on him at her parents house. less than a minute later she was stating it as a fact, it happened. so from none to maybe to definitely. sigh.

but i guess the small revelations beat being told that they were all at his house and her holding to that story, despite it being a lie.

however, this was something that she says WAS already on the list that shes going to give me. the full and complete one.

it just sucks.

but thanks about the strength. i dont know if i believe that but it was nice of you to say.

the hospital result has come back. we are now dealing with pregnancy. we will have to have a procedure to end it. there is no way we can have a child with economics, this, and everything else going on in our lives.

my wife is almost done with the list. she spent the weekend working extensively on it. now she wants to transfer what she did this weekend from paper onto the word doc that she has the rest on. then she wants to add a few more things, clarify some, proofread, and give it to me. maybe i will have it in a few days or so? im not sure.

im still sh1tting bricks about this list. its MANY pages long, detailed, and specific. im not sure how hard it will be to read something like this. i suspect brutal.

i still think knowing the truth is better than believing a lie or sticking my head into the ground.

Still here listening william. We will be here to help pick you up off the floor again when that list hits you. This is just fucking awful. Continue to lean on us when you need to.

Sending you strength and courage

I so wish the army could get their act together so you could have IC to process the pregnancy and abortion! Have you been able to get some closeness to your wife in discussing this decision? I know you're still going through new revelations from the cheating (her parent's house--ouch!) I assume that the shame for her is a big impediment to revealing things openly, but if she is getting there (even in a maybe to yes progression), that must be good. But I do also hope you are able to carve out a space that is focused not on the list and the past but on your present discovery of pregnancy, and supporting each other in that new challenge without always getting sidetracked to discussing the past.

Do you go into the Betrayed Men forum in I Can Relate at all? I feel so helpless offering advice to you from not being able to fully comprehend what this would do to my self-esteem, self-respect if I were a man with all the related cultural assumptions. I hope you do know fully it is not about your inadequacy but hers. Do you think she is strong enough to face down that emptiness inside of her and learn to fill it in a healthy manner?

Keep hanging in there and feel free to PM me if you ever just want to get direct support or get more things off your chest or whatever. It seems pretty isolated for you over there in Italy

the marines and the dept of defense wont do anything. period. i live in italy, they have no facilities for someone not in active service and basically told me to move to america to get treatment. its a dead end. my source at the VA says it can be a year or so before they actually do something about me. so im not quite giving up on that route but i am back burnering it. i dont have the energy to fight with them and fill out endless forms to get crap back.

my wife and i are pretty close on the decision to abort. we both say we will draw together, support each other emotionally, and help each other get through it. it will be rough though.

her parents were both in the hospital at the time, so her parents didnt (dont) know. it is an additional form of betrayal to meet him there and it does hurt. especially because she was never willing to be intimate with me when we would be in that house (for vacations before we moved to italy). it just seems so ... for lack of a better word ... contemptious, cold, callous, and basically sh1tting on me to do it there. but i guess after OUR house ... why should i be surprised. sigh.

im not sure if its "all" shame. i still think she is blocking stuff out of her own mind, some shame, perhaps trying to "hide" how bad it was from me, and maybe some misguided attempt to protect me. why im not sure, how can it get any worse at this point???

she is getting more honest. answering questions. dropping the euphemisms and being direct about what happened. the "her parent's house" was/is in her list - which i've not seen yet, but she says it is there. so i guess the list is "full and complete". it better be. im reaching the end of my patience with the TT.

i hope that the list is done before the procedure. i can read it, assimilate it, and think about it for a few days. come up with some questions, put htem in a word doc, and give it to her later. writing them seems to make it easier to answer them - they are organized neatly, allow time for thought - versus sitting and asking questions which come as i think of them and it distracts her and doesnt give much time to think about an answer.

in either case, i am going to stop discussing this while she recovers. we can talk about it afterwards. its not something nice to deal with on top of something already traumatic enough. but ... i really do hope its done before the procedure. i dont want to wait even longer. ive been 5 weeks now since i first asked her for a list (and the first list i got was rubbish being neither full nor complete, hence the second "full and complete list" being worked on now).

i have been to the betrayed men forum. they do provide some support. the general consensus there is that i should "run" and with "track shoes" away from her. i dont want to do that ... yet. i love her. i have hope.

actually you and YOP are the only two still here. your advice, shoulder, and sympathy have been one of the things keeping me going.

i dont feel inadequate due to her affairs. i do feel stupid. i trusted her completely. big mistake, one i will NEVER repeat with ANYONE ever again. i let myself be gaslight. i knew something was wrong but felt that she wouldnt lie to me or do something like this. i feel stupid. i feel betrayed. i feel angry that she killed our marriage for a collection of asshats. i feel sad that she so degraded herself. i feel sorrow for the shame she now carries. i feel desolute having to face that i can NEVER 100% trust my wife EVER again, always the knowledge she cheated and cheated BIG TIME will be there in my mind. i feel wary that she can fall right back into her self destruction again and scared that i might not even notice for some time. i feel terrified that im opening myself up for the possibility of being betrayed in the future. i feel rage that she did this to OUR DAUGHTER, all those choices to spend time with THEM and NOT our daughter pisses me off.

i may PM you one day. perhaps after i have the list. now im just in limbo.

i do feel very isolated here in italy. she kept trying to get me to be "friends" and to "meet" people during the past years - many of them were guys she was doing all sorts of stuff with. the guy she had ONS 1 with she made a point of introducing me too and sexting guy 1 she kept talking about me meeting, the guy at the family business that kissed her she introduced me to him too, plus a guy that knew about the affair she got me to go hang out with him a few times. there is a girl in my daughters class that we went out with her father, the girl, my daughter, my wife, and i as a group. now im paranoid that hes involved in something somehow. now im terrified to meet ANYONE that she mentions. im afraid she is interested in them, that they were involved somehow in something. perhaps irrational but every guy she talks about me meeting now almost triggers a panic attack in me. i think "oh god".

so now im more alone than ever in many ways. all i have is this forum and 1 friend that lives in america that i send messages to and ask his advice. i havent told anyone else. not because im ashamed but because if we do R and stay M then them knowing will only cause us problems in the future. so i isolate myself now to preserve a better future, does that make sense?

[This message edited by william at 2:53 PM, March 19th (Wednesday)]

I understand wanting to protect your possible future together by not telling others yet. And I understand still wanting to stay and work on things with her even though you're being told to run.

I wasn't on SI after my first DDay so I never got the 'what are you thinking, run far away' 2x4s here but a friend or two who advised me to pull back always made me more stubborn. I wasn't ready. In my case there was a second Dday that showed R was impossible and ended the charade...but my ex genuinely wasn't capable of doing the work and your wife may be. And you know, I did get extra pain, a month of insomnia, a lot of unnecessary anxiety and hurt by trying to R, but I'm okay despite that. Still sad about what happened, but okay. You're not done until you're done. And your wife is trying as best as she can. I don't blame you at all for still being willing to work on your M. It shows a caring, loyal man, and that is nothing to apologize for. As for the stupidity...it's just an ugly word for a good if dangerous quality, the ability to trust fully. Now the blinders off you cannot trust in that way again, but tat you did before isn't stupid. When all of the betrayal is happening behind our backs, we are not to blame. Try and free yourself from the label 'stupid'. I know how painful it is to beat yourself up for not seeing sooner, but my feeling is...there's so much pain already in what occurred, why make ourselves feel worse by adding an extra burden in kicking ourselves over something we couldn't help?

William- Just want you to know that I've been following your story and praying that after all is said and done you and your family have some peace and happiness. I am not comfortable giving advice but I am someone in cyberspace thinking of you.

yep. still here william. not going anywhere

last night my wife had to stay a little longer at work to make up some hours she had missed.

my daughter asked me "could we watch a movie we all agree on for dinner. on tv."

i said "momma would be home a tiny bit later".

my daughter said "oh, shes out with a friend?"

i said "no. she had to work later to make up time because shes coming to get you from X tommorrow. she will be home before we finish eating."

my daughter said "oh. good."

i said "havent you seen that momma is spending more time at home now with you and me?" (she has been "out" maybe 4 times in 10 months, 3 of those work related and one a trip to see some college friends - pre D-Day2 so its not like shes been out "much").

my daughter said "yeah."

i said "its nice, isnt it?"

my daughter said "yeah. but it wont be long before she meets a friend again and says she wants to stay out all day long and all night long with them again. it always happens."

i said "those days are done forever, i think".

my daughter said "hmmm" and walked off.

during the two year period my wife had her affairs she was out of the house ALOT. some of that time period she was out because of work. some because she wanted to go out with her "friends" - partly true but also partly to have time to conduct her affairs. some she lied about and claimed to be doing one thing while actually conducting her affairs.

i had thought my daughter was healing and learning to trust her mom again. the sheer level of cynicism and the expectations that momma is going to "check out" of the house and our lives again was overwhelming, especially coming from a 7 year old. i didnt know what to say. i almost cried.

[This message edited by william at 3:28 AM, March 21st (Friday)]

It's so heartbreaking to hear that. As a parent that's the worst type of pain, when it's your child's. You can't take the pain for them and you can't control it. So you have that little extra layer of helplessness.

Your wife needs to continue to show your daughter remorse as well. Your wife is the primary key in easing that pain and it's going to take a very long time for her to do so. Actions speak volumes. If she doesn't continue to do so, when you daughter starts to turn into a teenager, the conflicts between your wife and her will get worse. And there may still be a time or two when your daughters anger may lash out in later years and your wife's behavior may get thrown back in her face even if your wife is remorseful. Hopefully that won't happen. But I'm telling you from experience, expect it. The trick is not to let your daughter be disrespectful IF that were to happen. She may need to be reminded that your wife is a parent too regardless of what she's done and your daughter does not get a free pass. Your daughter is showing you that she is hurt too. At least she is letting her guard down enough to show you.

The day I exposed my mother's affair she was dead to me as a parent. I never listened to her ever again. On anything. I would still listen to my dad and he had to lay down the law with me about being disrespectful. The difference is that I never saw any remorse. Nothing but anger and resentment for exposing her affair and for me no longer listening to her. I never trusted her ever again.

This is why it's so important for your wife to stay engaged with your daughter and continue to show her remorse and love. Hopefully acting out later can be avoided or kept to a minimum.

IMHO dealing with your child's hurt is more difficult than your own. Although in your case your own is pretty surmountable too.