SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I think it's very possible you've been a little blinded by your anger, since her effort to divulge appears pretty good faith. But, you're only trying to protect yourself! R is hard to commit to for the BS I think because of all the fear of choosing to be vulnerable to a repeat. Those thoughts of 'Am I crazy? Am I stupid? Are they playing me?' So hard to know what is real. And then just having to wait for time to show if it's authentic or false.

You're strong though, you'll ride the roller coaster til it's over and come out stronger. Hopefully your wife will ride next to you the whole way.

i am pretty sure she is telling the truth about almost everything.

there is one thing that im not so sure of ... the night the guy was in our house.

ive heard

that there was some kissing on the couch and then they went to bed together, there was some more kissing and then she took a pic of them laying there, saw the mirror, panicked, and booted him out of bed and he went to the couch.

ive heard variations on this ...

- he slept on couch, her on bed. she slept on couch and him on bed. she slept with our daughter and he slept on bed or couch.

- some light kissing on couch versus lots, some on bed versus lots, light touching over clothes versus he fingered her in our bed

my wife says the last time she looked at the cloch it was 0430 am, right before she went to sleep.

my 7 year old usually in bed by 9, maybe 10. assuming REALLY LATE ... thats 11. so 5 or 6 hours "alone" (ignoring the 7 year old sleeping a few meters away in her room ) and they "only" get that far?

im not sure if that adds up. the various stories conflict.

thinking about this stuff drives me crazy. it sends me into a funk. i crash. i get morose. i start to think about suicide.

[This message edited by william at 10:02 AM, February 17th (Monday)]

Hi william. I've heard you. I hear how this is killing you and causing you more pain. Suicide is not an option for you and you have to be the one parent that is there for your kids. Clearly she didn't think of your daughter wen she did all this. You have to be the one to think of her. Even if your son is in another country think of him too. I know getting help in Italy has been another major struggle for you. I'm really worried about you william. I'll see if one of the guides can to get you an 800 number you can call even if you are in Italy. Even if it's just to have just in case.

Hang in there bro.

Sent you a pm

thanks for being there.

im doing alot better now. i have the two numbers you gave me already, ive called them 3 or 4 x so far. they are very useful and ty for caring enough to look them up. it meant alot to me!

i guess the hardest things to come to grips with are:

WHY?

why do this. why degrade herself? its not like she met some nice guy, fell, decided to leave me or have some kind of secret affair, and here we are. she found the most F'ed up people possible, actually seeked them out, and then destroyed herself, me, our family, and our marriage ... and WHY is a hard one to answer.

the IDK/IDR.

she seems to have shoved alot of this stuff into very dark corners of her head now and while it was going on she was often blitzed on alcohol and in the midst of some kind of nervous breakdown/depression. im not sure how much she can or will ever fully remember. not knowing is pretty hard.

the "other stuff".

this has shaken a ton of stuff loose in my head that i had shoved into a box and buried VERY deeply. some of it is pretty horrifying. it seems to pop out in connection with the thoughts of the affairs. the two in conjunction are really brutal.

i guess all i can do is get stronger, learn to accept that some shit doesnt have an answer, and that i have to live with not understanding why a really good person would do such crappy things, why having some F up in the house was more important than the damage getting caught with him could do to our daughter, and that many of the questions that i have will either probably need a long time (obtained via her IC) or never be completely answered.

i also need to live with the realization that her switch could flip again. she says it wont, that she wont let it, and that she loves me and her family. but it flipped before and i always need to be constantly aware that it could flip again. i also need to be aware that i need to pay more attention to watch for it because last time i didnt even see it, the concept that she would be doing this stuff was completely foreign.

finally, i need to come to grips with the fact that my wife needs to earn my trust. even writing that is hard. i trusted her 100% and with everything. to even write that i cant trust her hurts me. to contemplate that i will never 100% trust her or anyone ever again pains me. i can trust her, eventually, but never completely and utterly again. id be a fool to do so. knowing this hurts so much.

on the plus side...

- the woman that i fell in love with is back. for a long, long time it felt like someone else was inside of her body and controlling her though process. now i can see the woman i look up to, admire, and love is back. its a great feeling.

- my wife is working hard on her list of people she acted inappropriately with. she says she is going person by person and putting everything, no matter who and how minor, that way i know everything - even if she didnt consider it inappropriate then but does now. she is also working on a time line. she says both are very hard but she is trying very hard to be as precise as possible. for me this a huge step forward for her.

- my wife has massive remorse. she cant believe she acted this way. she feels terrible for what she did to me, us, our daughter, and our family. im a little but understand when she says she even feels remorse for how she treated these other people - as if they were a game or toy to play with. she feels intense shame. this is all important for her to come to grips with and to improve herself and us.

- we are spending more time together as a family than we have in years, if ever. we play games at night with our daughter whereas in the past one of us would do something with her. the doing things together is really beautiful and has become my favorite time of the day.

- my wife and i talk more and about more than before. i think the As are too dominating (in that we discuss them "too much" as compared to other things or just doing things together) but the fact that we are doing so much together is something that i had/have always wanted. it makes me feel very safe, secure, and loved when we are together doign things together instead of just being in the same room but doing our own little stuff ... apart.

- i told my wife that i had fear for the future, that this switch would flip again. i told her that i wasnt afraid that she was still having affairs now. she asked me how i could know, how could i be sure. i looked deep inside myself to think about that. i realized that i trust her right now enough to know that she wouldnt do that. i feel a little stupid putting that down because i trusted her before not to do that ... and she did ... and i had no clue she was doing that. but at the same time it feels good to know that i do trust her that much right now. i hate distrusting her, it is such a dirty feeling.

- i see my wife turning to our daughter. holding her more. spending more time with her. working on controlling her temper while stressed. i see her trying to be a good mother again. this is SO big to me that it brings tears to my eyes.

Hey william, I'm still listening. Glad that you are at least able to find some positives for yourself with where you are at.

It really is hard to get past this shit. Just wanted to point out one more positive for you. At least with as messed up she is, she is showing remorse on some levels. If she is showing remorse with your daughter, that is very good. Just by being there and focusing on family is huge. That's something I never got in my family. To this day, 25 years later next month, my mom had never shown any remorse. She will not take any responsibility for what she did to our family and still blame shits. Yes, I deliberately left off the 'f'. I'm never going to expect that from her, but I'm happy for you that you are at least seeing that much from your wife.

Take care of yourself.

Thinking about you, william.... How are you doing today?

They call this a rollercoaster for good reason... The ups and downs are intense and will not stop for a LONG time. Sad truth. But better to acknowledge that, than to assume that the movement will always be positive.

Just know this: You are important. You are worthy of love and respect. You have a DD and also a DS -- you are the ONLY father they will ever have. When you don't feel you have any other reason for living, think of them. I know you wouldn't want to inflict lifelong damage, sadness, regret, and self-blame on them.

No matter how things eventually work out with your W, you have good things ahead of you in your life. Some days, it may seems as though the pain of today is too much to bear. But please remember that this feeling is not permanent. There are better days ahead. May take a while. But there are days ahead of you worth living for.

I do understand that the information overload and emotional overload are absolutely overwhelming. Just be kind to yourself. Take it a moment at a time. I am glad to read you ARE looking at some of the positives and having some enjoyable moments. That's really good. Hang onto those thoughts/memories when another dip in the emotional rollercoaster happens. When you "bottom out", remember that another "upswing" is on its way.

Someone on SI posted something to the effect of (sorry if I misquote, but I loved this): "The good thing about hitting rock bottom is that everything else begins to look F*ing fabulous".

Treat yourself to something nice today. Keep pursuing avenues for support and help. Focus on any little positive that you can.

You are cared about, william. You are important. You deserve happiness. You are a good man. Better days are ahead for you.

thank you both for the kind words of encouragement. they are much appreciated!

i dont know which is worse - the information and emotional overload or the not knowing things. sigh. we still havent even discussed her LTA guy yet. it seems we spend forever talking abotu this stuff but there is so much that we never seem to ever finish. its been 6 weeks of feeling like someone is pouring a steady stream of diarehia into my mouth.

i just wish we could get past this bit and to where i finally know "everything" or at least "most" of it. its not TT; its that we have a child so have limited time to discuss this safely, there is only so much one can absorb, and she needed time to get her facts straight so later contradictions wouldnt arise. it means taking things slow. its torture.

on another note, i finally let my wife know the name of this site and got her registered here. she will begin posting in the next few days or maybe not, shes a little nervous.

sending you a pm

Sent

[This message edited by yearsofpain25 at 10:01 AM, February 19th (Wednesday)]

my wife is almost done with her list. ive sent her some questions and shes answering them too. she will give me both in the early / middle of next week

this is a huge positive after multiple D-Days and TT. i read through all of my posts last night. its amazing how much smoke she has blown up my ass, i put details in my posts and it made it much easier to see the evolving story that she has fed me since june of last year. to see the full extent of it in one long read really hurt.

it just makes me so sad and hurt that a list of inappropriate behavior is even needed .

last night i couldnt sleep. i think i got about 2 hours sleep. panic attack when my wife said she had to work late and then go to her father in the hospital - i KNOW that is what she was really doing but its very similar to what she used to tell me while much of this was going on (her mom was in the hospital then and yes she did work alot but she also used them to cover her time with the guys). i heard the name of the LTA guy over and over from my daughter because its also the 1st name of one of her schoolmates that is her closest friend (?), then heard name of ONS guy 2 on a tv show we were watching, then my wife yelled at me in teh middle of the night while she was asleep. i spent most of the night trying to de-stress on the couch (which carries its own set of "special memories" with her and LTA guy).

i just dont understand why any adult could harm another person, especially someone they committed to, this much. didnt she consider the consequences, the reaction, the pain? didnt she care about any of that THEN? how can a basically good person go out of their way to destroy someone else who never went out of their way to harm them.

[This message edited by william at 8:06 AM, February 20th (Thursday)]

i just dont understand why any adult could harm another person, especially someone they committed to, this much. didnt she consider the consequences, the reaction, the pain? didnt she care about any of that THEN? how can a basically good person go out of their way to destroy someone else who never went out of their way to harm them.

There are many answers to these questions william, for me and my own situation, I've tried to distill them down - in the effort to continue my own healing, to find THE thing I need to address and put right. (I want to tell you ahead of time it's a worthy effort, forging a jewel pulled out from the coals). I feel like beginning from the end, first.

"how can a basically good person go out of their way to destroy someone else who never went out of their way to harm them."

Bucky Fuller used to say; "A problem well stated is a problem solved."

2 things are not quite right about the question.

- 1st, I do not believe we are "basically good" (that's why your typing soul used the qualifier.) We, you and me, "pretty much" all of us, fight our inclinations to evil every day.

- 2nd, YOU are not destroyed. error message there. Your RELATIONSHIP is, NO doubt. No doubt at all! What was the essential mystical one-ness (that's exactly why you feel it was you) has been ripped by a tightly gripped, supporting white tape. (next time, shave brother! k?) Just remember,

IT WAS NOT YOU - I've just given geometric proof.

(ppl bow or laugh before the shit I say so just go ahead brother, have yourself a field day)

Ok, I forgot puke.

Now this

"didnt she consider the consequences, the reaction, the pain? didnt she care about any of that...?" deserves an answer too.

You need to hear this, I'm sorry. It's part of the jeweling fire. It burns, fuck friend it burns, but this is the stone COLD truth to place on the burns for healing: No. She didn't. Not at all.

She was swept away by her compulsions (please see my previous post to you - please? I know it hurrrrrts)

She is not, not at all! who you think her to be.

YOUR work is to take the scales off your fearful eyes, and see for what IS.

We are here for you william. Shouldering all this shit.

I saw something today that cracked me up - stuck to an icemaker somewhere, I busted out laughing

@ jjct

in some ways, and i mean no offense, your responses and posts are most difficult to read. however, i also find them amongst the most helpful. you have a way of being very blunt and making me face very uncomfortable truths. so, despite being difficult to read i am glad that you post because they are extremely helpful. thank you!

i did read your posts before. i guess now is as good of time as any to rip the bandages off.

ive talked with my wife about the LTA, the 2 ONS guys, the sexting, etc.

a few things are chilling to me about them. ive shared (some of) these thoughts with her.

HOW

this stuff im pretty sure of. i can accept most of it as "facts".

1: BOUNDARIES

the absolute lack of boundaries she has repeatedly shown in regards to forming relationships with other people. more, often she is the one pushing them to cross what should be common sense boundaries

- she leads people into being less formal with her (signing professional work emails to a guy with "big hugs" and in a previous job a coworker made a pun on her name and called her "big boobs" for almost a year).

- routinely granted windows into our marriage to ALMOST EVERYONE (including guys that she has just met and some that she had never even met in person and was "chatting" with). in effect she was telling them that she was unhappy in her marriage and then encouraging them to talk about their relationships which then often created a situation of people seeing that she was basically putting herself out there for them.

- putting herself into positions where the relationship can grow beyond "just friends". (for instance, ONS 1 - another friend warned her to "be careful" about spending so much time with him, that it was dangerous for a married woman to spend that much time around a guy who isnt her husband talking about deeply personal things. my wife thought the friend was paranoid and it angered her because she thought she had it "under control").

- she put herself into positions where physical contact occured (im not referring to her affairs, etc) and then due to her lack of boundaries didnt go far enough (or even "far" at all) to stopping it, ensuring that it never happened again, etc. (for isntance a coworker at the family business kept saying he had liked her when they were in school as kids. one day he kisses her. she tells him "no, not to do that, that its wrong, etc" - but then she continues coming by the business SPECIFICALLY to chat with him on other days, etc. a very mixed message sent indeed. another great example is before we were married she sent a former lover a note saying she missed him, thought of him, wanted to see him, sent him nude pics, stayed in a hotel room with him, still swears nothing happened, and didnt see any reason why this could be inappropriate at all - after all they are "just friends" - at the time it sent me a huge red flag and i almost broke off the relationship over it but didnt because we had only started dating a few weeks before, it wasnt serious yet, and i stupidly believed that if we were in a more serious relationship that she would create better boundaries and stick to them.)

so her complete lack of boundaries encouraged all sorts of situations in her life where it drew people in to having inappropriate relationships with her to one extent or another. out of a list of 100s of people she knew it was like searching for a needle in a haystack to find people she DIDNT have inappropriate behavior with - i exaggerate the size of the list not at at all and we have so far found ONE we are sure of and are ONE other we are still thinking about. EVERYONE else is now NC. thats WTF moment when its considered.

2: MORALITY

this is where my wife always counted on herself. she figured that no matter what happened that she knew right from wrong and could stop anything before it got "too far". with her piss poor boundaries it happened alot that people tried to go further with her. (a guy sending her emails in the beginning of our relationship, guys asking her out, telling her they wanted more than just friends, etc.)

it was very rare that she put a hard stop to it, instead she would deflect it or avoid it. a guy knowing that she is married tells her he wants to be more than friends with her and she responds that she wants to be only friends - and then continues to hang out with him. in effect putting herself into harms way on a continual basis with MANY people.

3: COMBINATION

so her complete lack of boundaries encouraged all sorts of situations in her life where it drew people in to having inappropriate relationships with her to one extent or another. the lack of boundaries created situations where it continually exposed her to opportunity and temptation. each time she found herself in a mess that she had created. each time she had to rely on morality to get herself out of the mess

then one day it came that her morality wasnt enough. which in itself is a mind boggling statement.

-----------

that still doesnt explain the "why". it only explains HOW she found herself in these positions, especially at the beginning of this two year period.

ONS 1 guy is a perfect example of this. spending hours with him talking, sharing the most intimate details of their lives. she felt she was helping him with his problems. they bonded. flirting started, light at first. she is convinced she is in charge of the situation. then she finds herself in OUR car with him and they kiss. she told me she almost felt she owed him something and suggests they get in the back seat. they have sex . she says it was fast, never happened again (nor any other PA such as kissing but she isnt sure about that yet and needs to think about it), and that she felt bad afterwards. yet, when her friend who had warned her about the guy in the first place finds out and confronts her - her response is to scream at him, defend what she did, and attack him for his many flaws. the argument basically severed their relationship. but she stayed in touch with ONS 1 guy afterwards.

- she cant really explain why she felt she owed him something.

- she cant really explain why she kissed him.

- she cant really explain why she never even really considered stopping it.

- she never considered the damage it would do me, her, our daughter, our family, or our marriage. instead she just said "lets get in the back of the car" and went with the flow

one of the most sickening things she said to me (last night) about this was that even after this guy she still had hopes that she and i could repair our marriage. sickening in the aspect that if she wanted to repair our marriage why put a shotgun slug through the head of the marriage - because no mistake about it ... thats exactly what she did when she cheated with him, she killed the marriage at that precise moment FOREVER. how she felt we could repair our broken marriage when she had just killed it is beyond my comprehension.

she can see now how a whole chain of events led to her being in a position of temptation but she cant explain WHY she then acted on it.

---------------

WHY (her morality failed the test)

these are mostly my theories, im not sure if it approaches the level of "facts" yet.

1: our marriage

i think my wife drew alot of WHO she was from our marriage. i think, for her, it was part of her identity and part of her strength. when our marriage hit its all time low 2 years ago it left her flailing, unsure of who she was, what she was, what she wanted out of life, what her life was, etc. basic existential questions.

2: FOO issues

her early life is very grim. lots of abuse - of all kinds imaginable and some that are so outside the pale that they arent even imaginable to the average person.

her mother established all boundaries and enforced them with pain. my wife never learned to set her own.

my wife grew up being told that she was a whore, a slut, a failure, a fuck up, a loser, and destined to fail. her mom used to routinely tell her that she was such a shitty person that god would take our daughter from her. my wife fought this narrative but i think under it all she also somewhat believes it. (marine boot camp is a pretty good example of psychological conditioning and ive seen its effects first hand so i can understand, somewhat. obviously the analogy isnt perfect but it works ... sorta).

i "think" that the two combined to create a "perfect storm" in the case of ONS guy 1. she felt that without the marriage and me to hold onto she was lost and she fell back onto her previous conditioning (slut, whore, loser). that doesnt excuse what she did nor justify it, because ultimately she is an adult and is responsible for her own actions. it does, however, provide a backdrop of why at that moment she failed the test, fucked up our marriage, and did such a greedy, selfish, and evil act.

after her ONS with guy 1 i "think" that she had to justify her actions to herself. she made me out to be the "bad guy" in her head - it was "my fault". i can say this because i have reviewed the texts, chats, etc between us from this time and immediately before and continuing after this guy she became increasing bitter, angry, and full of blame for me - refusing to see any good and exaggerating the bad to the point of a caricature.

i think that she KNEW deep down that she was wrong and that her actions were incredibly bad. she began to feel that her parents had been right, that she was a whore, a slut, a fuck up, and a failure. see ... she had proof ... she had cheated. she fell further down the hole.

in an effort to show herself that she wasnt all bad she began to try to attract other people because if they were attracted then she couldnt be as bad as she saw herself (while still ... in an incredible display of mental jiu jitsu blaming me). she saw in them a chance at self validation. but at the same time she also picked some of the most F'ed up people possible in order to feel that she was helping them too. in effect a twofer. each person who responded made her feel wanted, desired, and yes ... medicated. so she would initiate contact, flirt, send them pics, get them excited about her, talk about sex with them, and then stop - some to restart (why she picked some to start with again and some she dropped like a tissue i dont know and is something that really bothers me. what did the ones she kept on with offer her that she needed so badly that the others didnt offer - what was it she needed THEY gave her?? ) but each time besides feeling "medicated" and having got her fix she also feels dirty, ashamed, and its never enough. she falls further down the hole.

she begins to spend more and more time out of the house at night seeking the validation that she craves. at first she has it "under control" (in the same way she had ONS guy 1 situation under control) in that she only goes out a few times a week, doesnt drink much, and comes back relatively early (midnight when clubs close about 4 am here).

her fathers health has NEVER been good, in fact thats an understatement ... its terrible and hes always "almost dying". yet hes the kind of giy that will get put in intensive care and probably outlast us all .. sigh. anyway ... . trips to the hospital to care for him, etc. an additional strain on her when she is already crashing.

add to that an incredible financial burden to keep the family going.

then her mom gets cancer. the kind you dont get better from and is a long, lingering painful death. this comes only a few months after ONS guy one and after she has initiated sexting with only a few guys.

now my wife has to save the family business (putting in LONG work hours of sometimes 18 hour days), take care of her father, take care of her mother, help care for her brother (who is a nice guy but is also a complete basket case - he is afraid of EVERYTHING and hides via alcohol and other escapism methods), and has me and her daughter to take care of as well.

her mom and dad both shout abuse at her as she takes care of them. the family business is WAY in the red and no one can explain why or how that happened or where massive amounts of money disappeared too. her brother crashes into self destruction. my wife begins to believe that we (me and our daughter) our better off without her. she is so filled with rage that when she comes home all she does is shout and scream. she thinks it is better if she is not as home as much. she loses her last grip to sanity.

she begins to secretly drink during the day. her sexting increases. she is constantly tired. she begins to go out more and stay out longer - always to the same place and with the same people.

she begins to flirt with the bartender there.

her "friends", her strongest support group - have been fed a steady stream of bile (some true, some exagerated, and some perhaps my wife believed then but strikes me as insane sh1t)about me and our marriage. none have been told about the sexting guys or ONS guy 1. most of them have weak moral codes and although they warn my wife that what she is doing is wrong - not one considers stronger actions or even considers suggesting they go to another bar. after awhile they all give tacticit approval of my wife's actions. one guy friend feels that if my wife is interested in this guy, then why not him and tries to become more than friends. however, my wife isnt interested in people interested in her - she wants to pick. its something she can control in an out of control life. interestingly she keeps the extent of her going out a secret from her friends - rotating who she goes out with so none of them know that she is out 3-5 nights a week, every week. she is now staying out til 4 am so she can spend more time flirting with the bartender.

then her mom dies. shes stops going out for awhile. she begins to lead a more normal life. she tries to R with me and i resist it. she crashes again. even worse. she starts to go out again, slowly at first but increasing rapidly.

she picks the bartender and pursues him for months. at one point she tells him she wants to use him for sex. then she pursues him even stronger. she drives her friends home, comes back to give him a ride home, kisses him in the car, goes inside his house with him, sits on his bed, and asks him "dont you want me".

LTA starts (this is the one i know least about right now, so much of this is even more a guess than the rest). at first it is only physical. but my wife sees him as a challenge (to win) and in order to feel better about what she is doing she begins to convince herself that it is "love". its moves from PA to EA as well.

however, she is also crashing more. even while in "love" with this guy and married to me she is increasing the number of guys she is involved in sexting with. the number multiplies to an alarming umber during these months. her drinking increases to where she is buzzed most of the day. she is driving drunk. she cant sleep - hours are spent driving aimlessly around the city, all night. the LTA guy makes her feel sick and revolted at the same time - his smell (he rarely bathed), his house was a literal pig sty, he didnt brush his teeth much, etc. yet she is sucked in more and more. seeking some form of validation.

then the LTA guy begins to respond that he feels the same towards her. their relationship evolves. it scares the shit out of her. she cant stand him yet she wants to be with him. she feels very conflicted.

she has ONS with guy 3. there is no emotional attachment first. its pure sex with nothing else to it. he is spitting in her face while having sex with her. she considers afterwards even doing it again. its rock bottom. even in denial and justification fog this cuts through to her what she is doing.

she cuts off the LTA. she cuts off the sexting. she decides to go "clean". she deletes her facebook profile and creates a new one.

she and i have a long talk. we discuss marriage. divorce, us, etc. D-DAY 1. she lies to me. tells me about LTA but swears EA only. we agree to R. it is false R.

despite her self resolution to go clean ... she adds most of the people BACK to her new facebook profile that she had been sexting, having sex with, etc. im not sure if she added them pre false R or during. i do know that she told them that she was trying on her marriage and not interested in continuing with what she had been doing. in a startling display of her poor boundaries she has one guy she had sexted with writing to her about how he hopes he is an exception and how he wants a BJ from her, she doesnt encourage it but neither does she stop it.

i impregnate my wife and she has an abortion. she gets angry and i withdraw. end of false R.

about 7 weeks ago comes D-Day 2. she admits LTA was EA and PA. a week later is D-Day 3. she admits to sexting. one day later is D-Day 4. she admits to 2 ONS.

---------

my wife now feels intense guilt, shame, and remorse. so much so that it is destroying her inside. even so, she has and is carrying most of the load of keeping us both going and trying to create a marriage out of the ashes of the one she left behind. i am doing the best i can to help her yet her actions have also left me in pieces and im damaged as well.

my wife is now terrified of having any relationships with anyone as "friends". she can see how poor her boundaries have been, that her morality isnt always strong enough to resist whats there, and that she has a hole inside of her that she needs to fix.

i do think that part of this hole was caused by the FOO problems. i agree with that. i also think part of this hole was caused by our terrible marriage.

i do not think that the existence of this hole is what caused or justified her to cheat. i think that the FOO and marriage together weakened her to where she COULD justify it to herself - even while knowing that her justifications were bullsh1t and that it was wrong.

when she can my wife will HAVE to go to IC. that is a deal breaker for me. i need to be able to trust my wife and frankly wondering if some dudes d1ck other than mine is going to wind up inside of her should be something that isnt even questionable in a healthy marriage. until she fixes what is wrong inside of her i cant trust in that. i just have to be aware that shes broken.

my wife is working on establishing boundaries with herself. i can see it and she improves daily. she also holds herself to total honesty with me and it creates a safe feeling for me to know that she is telling me everything.

i do see the woman i fell in love with again in my wife. for a long time i didnt, not because i stopped loving her (i never did) but because she had become someone else. someone that i didnt like (what kind of wife/mother says she needs more time to herself and goes out 3-5x a week staying out all night when she could be with her child ... at least instead, for example).

however, i do also know that this hole is still there. it hasnt been fixed. my wife is trying to bandage herself with a renewed sense of morality (seeing right from wrong and trying to act on it) and creating boundaries to avoid messes, opportunities to cheat, and temptation. BUT i also know this isnt enough. that wont fix the hole, it can only patch it up some until she can get individual counseling.

then of course ... lurking in the background ... are all the issues that caused us so many problems in our marriage BEFORE the affairs. we need to address and solve them too. fortunately we are both working hard to become better people for ourselves and each other.

i majored in psychology (but no degree so hence no practical application either). i DO see some signs of narcisstic personality disorder in her. the constant need of affirmation from others, arrogant in behavior, fantasies of great wealth, focusing on her own hurts, envying others while searching out those who can envy her to get affirmation, expectations of special treatment, and low self esteem.

however, i also do not consider her to suffer NPD. she doesnt exhibit any signs of intentionally hurting or criticizing others, she is loaded to the gills with empathy for others, she sacrifices self for others, she lacks arrogance in attitude, and she lacks the dramatic sense of over importance attached to this disorder.

i do agree that her willingness to polygraph makes it unlikely and her actions didnt seem to be a deliberate attempt to "hurt me" (although it sure as hell feels that way sometimes). so some signs but not full disorder. but i think we ALL have signs of each disorder possible. its normal to have minor traits.

i also agree that she used sex and affirmation from others to escape her pain. unhealthy choices that actuall increased it.

i do not understand

She is not, not at all! who you think her to be.

YOUR work is to take the scales off your fearful eyes, and see for what IS.

do you believe i am still missing something? please be clear. i feel dense....

also, sorry for the length of this post....

[This message edited by william at 4:54 AM, February 21st (Friday)]

william, I apologize - for being blunt and difficult to read. I'm certain it arises from my desire (for you or anyone) to "hurry up and see", so you can "hurry up and heal". I will work to be better.

I want to repeat the part about rooting for you for the win. I would have said "RUN william, RUN!" if I thought you were dealing with NPD. It doesn't "feel" like it. (NOT that I'm the final arbiter of such things, jmho)...since she's willing to poly, and IC (when it can happen) - I see this as redeemable. Salvageable.

The part about "seeing" - I am sorry for my poor choice of words. I can see how you might hear me say "you are blind". That was wrong. You do see; it's about medicating, poor boundaries and coping skills, dealing with past hurts from an abusive childhood...

(I hope those links help with answers there)

You're doing a fantastic job dealing with what you're discovering - wayyy better than my blunt and blubbering self. You should've seen! (I'm still almost incomprehensible )

All these years later - I'm still seeing things I missed.

Let's look at something you said:

she is..."arrogant in behavior" but

"she lacks arrogance in attitude"

hmmm.

No worries william. I truly believe "YOU GOT THIS"

@jjct

its difficult to read because you get to the root of the matter. actually i appreciate it. it is hard but necessary. so ... dont change. your style is very needed in my case. i can be stubborn and sometimes it takes a 2x4 to wake me up.

i know you are rooting for me and us. that means alot. i know some have decided im crazy for deciding what i did and bailed out. ive seen it. you and some others (nora, yop, ss, and some others especially) have stuck around and been supportive. so thank you!

ive been reading the links you sent. they do help me come to grasp with the enormity of the problem, i think i was rugsweeping it ("just" an infidelity versus some serious issues buried inside of her that cant be ignored and must be healed) earlier. your posts really made me realize. again, thank you.

this wasnt just cheating. serial cheating is a different animal. 2 ONS with different guys, a LTA, 7-10 guys sexting - over a 2 year period. one cant describe that as a momentary blip, a few moments of weakness, a bad decision, or anything like that. it was systematic, it was pervasive. it was about hurting herself, me, our marriage. she hasnt come fully to grips with that. its a tough thing to accept - that basically you emcouraged people to sh1t on you so you could feel better wallowing in the pain. but i see it. i also know that this isnt "normal" and reveals a badly damaged person inside of her. i love her though and im prepared to help her heal and us to heal too - as long as this self destructive behavior is NEVER repeated. but its definitely not fun to know that her coping mechanism built into her over the last 2 years is to get "buzzed" on alcohol and go find someone to have sex with. when she gets stressed or upset ... i panic.

when you say im doing better its because i have you all to help me. i suspect you didnt have that at first ... or did you? but my doing better is sort of illusionary - on my best days now im half stepping and on my worst im crashing so hard that i get the shakes, piercing headaches, and can barely function. ive had black outs and "wake" sitting in the corner or something. so im not all together there.

the arrogance in behavior - deciding i get to go out all night, often as i want, and i deserve it. i deserve to be happy and if this guy over there makes me happy then i deserve it.

the lack of arrogance in attitude - she doesnt demean others to make herself feel or look better. never has. in fact, she tends to help people and build them up (which actually is a problem because she takes an altruistic trait too far).

i do get the problem. i just have a hard time dealing with it. its

Unfortunately for you william you can't get rid of some of us.

How are you doing today? What's the latest in your world?

im doing okay today, sorta.

im just trying to come to grips with alot of stuff. its hard.

some i hear is terrifying. how she went from being in control, with no interest in anything with guy 1 ----> to kissing him, letting him touch her, suggesting they get in back seat of car, and then asking if he had a condom. in 10 minutes or so.

it really scares the hell out of me.

ive been posting some in the betrayed men in ICR forum lately.

in life im pretty much in a holding pattern. my wife is still working on her "full and complete list" of inappropriate behavior when she has time. she says it is almost done - i have been laying off asking her questions about stuff related to her this "stuff" until shes done ... to give her the maximum amount of time to finish and because it may answer some of the questions that i do have.

i brought up BPD with her and went over a list of symptoms. she answered "yes" to each one of them. in some ways this helps explain but ultimately it doesnt really. no matter what it still leaves a "why" - i see how it would make one vulnerable but dont believe that it controls decision making, there was a conscious decision made ... repeatedly over a 2 year period. it does provide a little more fear too - fear that her coping mechanisms are now defaulted to "go have sex with someone when she feels down" and that EVERYONE has stress in their life.

but i also see her making big strides forward. honest. transparent. remorse. trying to create a safe environment. more time with me and our daughter. owning her shit. discussing things in a reasonable manner. all huge steps. so thats a plus.

i feel so much sorrow for what has been lost. so much pain for how she chose to sh1t on me, our daughter, our marriage, and herself for 2 long years. so much confusion about WHY someone would chose to get sh1t on. so much anger. i cycle back and forth sometimes in a very rapid fashion. i can go from "okay" to paralyzed very quickly.

i dont feel suicidal as much anymore. thats good because the military isnt willing to do jack sh1t for me - being that i am in italy and they have no facilities here. not that im surprised. i long since learned that i was a tool to be used by them and once used discarded. but it still hurts a bit to have that tossed back into my face. i need to get into counseling but money and the italian health system are both problems. i see my counseling in the short term as vital, i see my wife's counseling as more vital in the long term. i need help now. she needs help long term to learn and practice new coping mechanisms.

i dont feel she is cheating now but i do have a HUGE fear that one day in the future she winds up in a situation due to poor boundaries - just like in the past - and basically says "okay, lets get in the back seat of the car" ... . she needs to learn a better way of dealing with situations than that.

im scared.

Hi William,

This is really difficult to go through. You're working so much harder than your wife is. It's not fair.

You've come up with a list of 'conditions', and she has failed to meet each one. When that happens, you come up with a new list, and she once again fails, and a new list is created, and so on.

Have you read the 180? I suggest you read it. It's in the healing library. It's under BS faqs, #11.

I'm truly sorry for you. What your wife has done is so hurtful, so cold. You've continued to put her on a pedestal throughout this, and honestly, it's not deserved. I'm not sure what is holding you back, but I think you need to step back and start really thinking if you can even move forward given how many times she's lied to you, and blamed everything EXCEPT her poor boundaries and choices. In the end, she did this. She needs to accept that not being happy is not a reason to cheat.

Please read the 180, and read some stories of those that have done it.

Also, she's been 'working on this list' for over 2 weeks, correct? Your M and your healing, at this point after all of her lies, should be her ONLY priority. That list should have been done long ago. It should have taken days, not weeks. She is once again stalling, and I have little faith, after her claim that she 'forgot' she sent her ex naked pictures, which I don't believe at all - you brought him up and specifically asked. I would believe she forget about their interactions, but once you discussed him? No, she knew she sent those pictures. You know this. You want to believe she may have forgotten, but you know that's just not the case. Once you brought him up, she knew immediately.

I wish you so much strength. None of this is fair to you. No matter what else was happening, you did not deserve this. Your daughter did not deserve to share a dinner with mom's boyfriend. I'm so sorry.

We're always here. Please, read the 180. I'm not suggesting you leave, or anything else. I'm just suggesting the read because it has some good ideas to help you regain some strength that As take away from the BS.

(((((william)))))

Thanks for the update william. Glad to see that you guys are still making strides together going forward and she is giving you and your daughter some of the things that you need. She is going to have to continue to work on herself for a long time to make some of that fear go away. From what you have written here I'm guessing that a lot of her issues stem from her family of origin (FOO). She is going to have to have to face her FOO issues and break the cycle.

I'm still pulling for your family william.