SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

There are posters here that feel that any cheater should be served with divorce papers, no matter the circumstances. Your best response to them is crickets.

Agreed. That said I'm probably more pro D than pro R in most cases. Just being realistic.

CBM: FWIW I think your WW is R material more or less right off the bat, which is a rarity here. Get in IC and see if you can work past the betrayal an emasculation you feel.

The obvious answer is to let it go and have a great life. But then her act of betrayal (not telling you before marriage and kids) was the smart thing for her to do and it worked. How do you not resent that?

Michigan

Do I "deserve a great life" more than she does? Maybe, probably, but so what?

CantBeMe123

CantBeMe123 you gave a great response to my question. I’m very happy for you.

But I can’t stop myself from taking issue with the following:

(She) has been faithful our whole marriage (this was all pre-M).

CantBeMe123

You don’t know that. No one knows that about their spouse. The closest anyone can come to that is to say that their spouse doesn’t have it in them to cheat. They’re not that kind of person.

Also in today’s world not having the marriage ceremony yet is a technicality. You had lived together for years in an exclusive relationship.

Did not being married mean that both of you considered yourselves single and free to date other people? In that case she should have had no problem telling you she was dating someone else because it wasn’t a big deal.

You have a great attitude. Your wife may be a completely different person now. But she demonstrated that she had the ability to cheat and lie about it. In contrast I don’t think you have that ability.

[This message edited by Michigan at 4:32 PM, January 2nd (Wednesday)]

I struggle with accepting the A as part of our "permanent record", but I appreciate your reassurance and thoughts on the "ceiling" of your M.

I know this is going to be hard to understand as this, but the work that your W does after is what sticks out on your head. The A itself was the event, but everything that happens is what helps you move on.

Look my W would not have busted her ass, dealt with my cranky/vindictive/cold post Dday self if she did not want to be M to me. It let me to let myself be open with her again. It is most certainly a risk and life doesn't always end up like we expect either. My W's A was about her. It was not about me, what I did or did not do. If she ever chose that again . . .It would be the same plus it shows she hasn't learned what I thought she did. It would mean the end of my M. I have that boundary and would honor myself by enforcing that boundary.

I think this is something for IC for you. 9 out of 10 times that is rooted in your fear. You do not need to fear a future that is still being decided. I also think you need to work on your self esteem. This kills that, I understand 100%, but you need to build yourself back up. You do it without your W's help. That way it is yours and you don't owe anyone anything for it.

No, you never forget. You look back, knowing it was not your choice, and see that you did the best you could. You see strength, perseverance and generosity. A lot of people don't see that. They remember the pain, sadness, fear and anger.

Right now you only see the bad stuff and that is 100% normal. Please look for the good things when you get down . I can guarantee you that they are there and are the result of just how awesome you are. Give yourself credit, you definitely deserve that.

As another thing to talk to your IC. Co-dependency. Based on what you've shared there are elements of that too. Infidelity messes with a co-dependent and makes it so much harder on us.

Keep going.

"Tears and BJ's" LOL. Have you seen Californication. The protagonist is working on a book called "Fucking and Punching". That other book could be a sequel.

I understand the abstract desire for some sort of revenge or payback. We would all have that. But in the big picture what her dishonesty was motivated by, in a twisted way, was love for you, overlayed by a bit of cake-eating. My view is that over time your marriage has become stronger and better, which is more than a lot of married folks can say even if there is no infidelity at issue. You're luckier than many.

I'd tell your WW that her punishment for what she did is that all of her babies were born completely naked.

CBM, I think you're doing a good job coping with this and keeping as clear a head as can be expected given the circumstances. Most people are overcome by the urge to either rugsweep or go scorched earth. I know I certainly did the latter, though in my case I was dealing with an entirely unremorseful WW.

It's been said by some of the users here that there are two main things that determine whether or not R is something that can be achieved. The first is that you have to have a WS who understands what they did, who is filled with remorse over their actions and empathy for the pain they've caused their BS, and who is willing to do the hard work necessary to become a better, safer partner and give their all to their BS and their marriage. Very few waywards are capable of this, which is why I think divorce is usually the better choice. But based on all you've said and all your wife has said in her thread, I believe you have one of the few who is.

The second thing is down to you. You have to figure out if even though you have a WW who is a good candidate for R (and I believe you do), whether you're going to be able to get to a place where you can tell her that despite the affair, despite years of lies that trapped you in a life you probably wouldn't have chosen if you'd known the truth, that you're willing to try and build a new marriage with her and start learning to trust her again. Will you be able to believe that she's a safe partner who will never cheat again? That she's 100% all-in with you and this marriage? That she wants you and only you? That there are no more lies left?

DDay is still recent for you, so you don't need to decide that now, especially because your wife still has work to do on herself. But think on it and when you're ready, make the choice that you believe will give you the best chance of living a good and happy life. If it means divorcing your wife, that's okay. If it means walking the difficult road of reconciliation with her, that's okay too.

[This message edited by firenze at 4:44 PM, January 2nd (Wednesday)]

You don’t know that. No one knows that about their spouse. The closest anyone can come to that is to say that their spouse doesn’t have it in them to cheat. They’re not that kind of person.

Michigan - My wife obviously had it in her to cheat, but I am confident she has not cheated during our M. She passed a poly asking if she ever had physical contact with any other man after her affair, and passed with 99.9% certainty per the examiner. This isn't end all/be all for truth, but it certainly helps. I also don't have any suspicions or uneasy feelings when I take inventory of these past eight years. I believe her.

You have a great attitude. Your wife may be a completely different person now. But she demonstrated that she had the ability to cheat and lie about it. In contrast I don’t think you have that ability.

I am pretty sure I do have the ability to cheat and lie about it, actually. I've done some things I'm not proud of and had inappropriate situations where flirting went way too far with a COW (she exposed herself to me on a couple different occasions and finally propositioned me for sex. I said no and cut contact with her.) I did not run home and tell my wife about these moments. Instead, I hid it, and only told her after she confessed the whole extent of her affair to me.

I think what I did was much better than what my wife did and not really an affair, but it was still a betrayal. I can understand how lines can be crossed and bad decisions can be made. It was my guilt and shame that kept me from crossing the physical line much more so than my integrity or honor. It was also my love for my wife and kids, but my wife didn't have a husband or kids back then. She did have a significant other though, and it hurts me to know she made the choice to have sex without even thinking about me, because she was front and center on my mind in my situation.

My COW fling has given me a lot of perspective and lets me forgive and empathize with her more than most BS I think. I guess I'm kind of a "mad hatter", although I don't feel that way (I probably give myself too much credit). I think her actions are still repulsive and the sex is hard to accept/forgive, but the mindset of seeking attention, enjoying ego kibbles, making bad decisions, and still loving your spouse... I can understand those parts.

CBM-

When I discuss Waywards, understand that I am not trying to specifically poke at you. I believe that the world is full of loving, dutiful, and trusting spouses who want to see something that likely isn't 100% there. We all want to believe in goodness, kindness, and honesty...it's just the nature of a good husband to want to see goodness in his wife. He will blind himself to the bad in order to see the good he wants to see. He will spin it and justify it for any number of reasons (kids, big picture, career, money, houses, lifestyle, I did something wrong one time too, and so on). In the end...reality is as real as gravity.

I say this, closing in on two decades behind a badge and a gun...having had to interview more good and bad people than I can recall...you can't fix a criminal mindset. The mindset is always there. It's just how they function. They commit crimes because they see the world differently than normal people. They lack certain characteristics that prevent normal people from committing crimes...impulse control, morals, lack of empathy, integrity, whatever you wish to call it...they lack it. They can fake it for the judge, fake it for their friends, but inside...they know that they are predatory animals.

So, why do some criminals stop? They age out of it...they lifestyle out of it...some get punished harshly and decide that the punishment isn't worth it...and some just suck at it, so they give up.

But, inside...they still have that predatory drive. It's still there and, given the chance, they will act on it. In the end, it is who they are on the inside.

The EXACT same applies to adultery. The mindset is 100% the same. It's can I vs should I...the should part isn't there.

I would bet even money, that if you gave a wayward spouse, of whatever gender, the ability, opportunity, and means, to cheat one more time...with a 100% guarantee that they would get away with it and nobody would ever know...they'd take a bite of that apple. It's who they are, as defined by what they did.

I get where you are at, that you, as a good man, NEEEEED to believe in your wife. Your self worth, identity, and value is defined by the life you have built with her...so you must see what you need to see...but reality is a harsh mistress and she has a habit of coming calling. Good luck to you. You live with a predatory animal that has been trained to not do predator things. Maybe it works...or maybe wolves do wolf things in the end.

Good luck.

[This message edited by Unbroken78 at 7:37 PM, January 2nd (Wednesday)]

MC's were asked what is the leading indicator that a marriage was going survive, over 95 % said empathy in the WS.

What stopped you from cheating was actually empathy. How your actions would impact those that you love.

Your wife does need to find her why.

I have been told that once a cheater always a cheater is true, however, that does not mean they will cheat again. It means that if the same circumstances or environment exits or happens, she is very likely to cheat.

Do not rug sweep. Get down to the root. There is no shame in reconciling as long as you both learn from history and do the work.

My wife obviously had it in her to cheat, but I am confident she has not cheated during our M.

Not saying yours did, but I would have bet the farm mine hadn't either. I thought, of all my life decisions, I had picked a great wife. Not so much. 6 or 7 one time flings, and an ongoing 8 yr affair. I think I'm better than average intelligence and pretty darn observant. I never saw it coming. I simply wasn't looking.

Never say never.

redbaron007 - So the "easy way" to have carefree sex in your 20s is to get in a relationship, have an affair, lie to stay with your boyfriend (unmarried, no kids) that you could leave in a heartbeat if you wanted to, live with the guilt and shame for 10 years, build a life and family with a man you ostensibly don't love, and then confess what you did just to get to watch your dope of a phony husband eat shit.

In short, yes, it is the easy way. You mention her living with guilt and shame for 10 years. That surely must have impacted your marriage and would have sucked for you all. But by all accounts, you seem to have had a great marriage. So did she really silently suffer all these years without you knowing about it? Did the guilt prove too much and forced her to confess? Or as your WW herself admitted, she thought your marriage was strong enough to withstand the long-ago incident? The two are not the same.

You talk about love - you have asked about the specific affair multiple times over the years and have been lied to each time. How can outright lying be a sign of love? Surely you are able to distinguish love from selfishness and self-preservation? She loved her life with you, sure. But lying to you blatantly about the physical affair, and lying by omission to the other two subsequent flirtations is not love.

Yes, pure genius indeed! Who wouldn't want to follow this perfect recipe?

It's pure selfish instinct - this site is replete with stories of affairs uncovered years later.

In your version of events, is my wife also cackling maniacally while she draws up these plans? Does she celebrate secretly with herself each year as the nefarious plan unfolds? After her confession, in between our constant heartbreaking talks and her ongoing distress, displays of remorse, emails of reassurance, timeline writing, polygraph taking, posting here, etc, etc, etc... is she doing all this with a big grin on her face about how enjoyable the chaos and pain is that she has caused?

No - she just led her selfish instinct prevail - first by having a PA and the other brief flirtations, and then over the next 10 years lying repeatedly about the PA and completely omitting the subsequent flirtations.

Seriously, you have a fucked up cynical mind if you think your "version of events" is anywhere close to reality.

Not cynical - just going by facts of your case.

The simplest explanation is usually the best, which is not that my wife is some kind of evil scheming bitch who spends her whole life and all of her energy pretending to be good to me and loving me while secretly executing her dark plan. No, she just fucked up, did a horrible thing because she was an immature, selfish 23-year-old, lied because she didn't want to lose me (still selfish), grew as a person over time, became a safe and loving wife, hated living with the guilt and shame of what she did, and confessed because I asked about the affair and she was tired of lying to the man she loved.

Again, you do not repeatedly lie for decades and claim you love them - what sort of unhealthy love is that? Do you love your wife? Would you repeatedly lie to her for 10+ years for something as serious as a PA if she keeps asking you about it? I think not, but who knows.

She was 23 when she had the PA (and the subsequent 2 flirtations) but she continued to lie well beyond, till the day she confessed - and that happened only because she thought you could handle it after so many years. How do you justify her lying between the ages 23 - 35? As a sign of love?

My COW fling has given me a lot of perspective and lets me forgive and empathize with her more than most BS I think. I guess I'm kind of a "mad hatter", although I don't feel that way (I probably give myself too much credit).

No, I don't consider you a mad hatter either.

I had similar situation happen to me several years ago. I got close to a co-worker that I worked on a project with. It open my eyes when I started defending it to myself and making excuses. It was to the point that I had to lie to her and tell her I was happily M'd.

While I don't really understand what stopped me back then it did allow me some empathy for me W to see how your mind can betray you and begin to align rationalizations to make the first leap.

It is important that you empathize with her. My W and I had many frank discussions after that slippery slope experience. It was the beginning of where we are today.

Most important point in all of this is that understanding is NOT and I repeat understanding is not condoning/saying it was ok. It is also not forgiving.

While they are related they are two difference choices that were made that have to be owned by each of us respectively. We can't own each others choices. If my W makes a choice it is 100% hers. The same applies to me.

While I don't really understand what stopped me back then it did allow me some empathy for me W to see how your mind can betray you and begin to align rationalizations to make the first leap.

It is important that you empathize with her. My W and I had many frank discussions after that slippery slope experience. It was the beginning of where we are today.

It has helped me tremendously in finding empathy and understanding. I think the "slippery slope" can happen for everyone, it's how we handle ourselves once we start falling down it that defines us. My wife failed back then, I "passed" (but with a C-, not an A). I believe my wife would pass given another "opportunity", but mostly we plan on there never being another one.

Most important point in all of this is that understanding is NOT and I repeat understanding is not condoning/saying it was ok. It is also not forgiving.

There will be no condoning or forgiving. My goal is acceptance.

While they are related they are two difference choices that were made that have to be owned by each of us respectively. We can't own each others choices. If my W makes a choice it is 100% hers. The same applies to me.

Yes, completely agree. I think what needs to be jointly owned are boundaries. We can't own each other's choices as you said, but we can commit to respecting the same boundaries. I think infidelity is like weight-loss - the willpower should happen at the grocery store, so to speak. Once the indulgence is within arm's reach, you're probably giving yourself too much credit to think you can just say no over and over again.

There will be no condoning or forgiving. My goal is acceptance.

There have been some interesting threads around the concept of forgiving, touching on the fundamental question of, "What is forgiveness?" I think for most "forgive" does not equate to "forget". For some, to "forgive" seems to mean reaching an emotional place in which the forgiver feels that what the forgiven did was okay.

I don't believe that should ever be the goal. I prefer the definition of "forgiveness" as reaching a state where the forgiver no longer desires to extract vengeance from/upon the forgiven.

There will be no condoning or forgiving. My goal is acceptance.

Baby steps. I agree that acceptance is your focus now. Forgiveness is a 500 level course for a lot of us. You have to get through and pass the pre-reqs before you can take the advanced class.

The serenity prayer held especially true for me. I am not religious, but I find great wisdom and strength in that prayer/poem. I could paraphrase, but you can easily google it to get the exact words.

It is about accepting that past and being honest with yourself about what you can or cannot change.

I think what needs to be jointly owned are boundaries. We can't own each other's choices as you said, but we can commit to respecting the same boundaries.

Hi CBM,

I think there is a huge amount of wisdom in those words, especially when it comes to reconciliation. Being on the same page as far as boundaries and values go is essential.

From what I have read in your thread and in your wife's, I think you are on course to achieve that.

I think we would all like to see that happen.

Sending strength and best wishes to you.

CBM,

What have you done or plan to do about the OM?

If he married the GF he had at the same time as your WW did you at least bust him.

He clearly knew you existed and messed with your GF anyway.

I would like to know what was the questions you asked for the poly?

What happened that you always knew that there was more then what was told to you? Coming home late, no sex etc.

Did you ever ask her to leave her job?

Your wife as lied to you about everything that she has posted?

I am not sure you want to know what really happen. I am not sure you could handle it.

I know for sure your a good man and she now is a good women.

I believe that 10 years form now you will be in the same spot your in now, still going over what really happened.

I can write with about 90 percent what really takes place in these situations. She will then need to clean it up but the true will come out. It will not be something your going to like.

It will tell you if she was going to leave you. why she had contact on FB. If pictures were taken and a movie of her was produced,

I prefer the definition of "forgiveness" as reaching a state where the forgiver no longer desires to extract vengeance from/upon the forgiven.

Your definition seems a little too "easy" to me. I think I can move past wanting vengeance without too much more effort, but I still won't feel as though I've forgiven what she did and how she acted.

I try not to get hung up on forgiveness too much because I am pretty rigid in my beliefs and I'm not sure forgiving infidelity is on my menu. I read on here somewhere that acceptance can be obtained in lieu of forgiveness, and that struck a chord with me and I've always thought of that as my goal. I think I would rather accept what she did and love her in spite of it.

Forgiveness is a 500 level course for a lot of us. You have to get through and pass the pre-reqs before you can take the advanced class.

That's great, thanks n&d. Maybe I can reach graduate-level R and find forgiveness one day

I think there is a huge amount of wisdom in those words, especially when it comes to reconciliation.

Don't give me too much credit M1965, I'm mostly regurgitating the wisdom of some of SI's most wise and generous posters

What have you done or plan to do about the OM?

If he married the GF he had at the same time as your WW did you at least bust him.

He clearly knew you existed and messed with your GF anyway.

OM hasn't been a part of my wife's life for 12 years. I have no interest in bringing him back into it in any way. I've seen his Facebook page, he appears to be very much single and very much a loser. He has no life to ruin. My wife almost throw us away for a complete loser who has grown into... an older loser.

Back at my first d-day, I was too young and too insecure to take any action. I didn't know who he was and didn't care. I wanted to pretend he didn't exist and that's basically exactly what I did.

My life is a hugely painful lesson of the dangers of rugsweeping... the rug will wear down, the truth will come out, and the only question will be how much of your life you allow yourself to live in denial and under someone else's control.

Your definition seems a little too "easy" to me. I think I can move past wanting vengeance without too much more effort, but I still won't feel as though I've forgiven what she did and how she acted.

If you think of forgiveness as a state of being (I just can't be bothered to dredge this stuff up and continue to wast my life bothering myself about it) rather than a verb that you do (I hereby officially and irrevocably forgive you) then I bet you'll get there.

It's perfectly possible to forgive strangers (guy who cut you off in traffic) and dead people (the guy who still owes you $1000.00 and never paid it). They obviously don't care. So in those cases what does forgiveness mean? Who is it possibly benefiting?

So don't sweat the issue, don't lay down any ultimatums about it. No lines in the sand. If and when the day comes that you forget to think about it, you won't be any less of a person for not dragging it around behind you like a dead dog tied to the bumper. Just keep moving forward.

Sending strength!

I read on here somewhere that acceptance can be obtained in lieu of forgiveness

I have written that but probably was not the originator! It is a good philosophy.

To me you can never forgive committing the deed but perhaps you may forgive the changed remorseful spouse if you need this for your own healing. I would still go with acceptance.

Your wife does seem truly remorseful now but still displayed wayward thinking until very recently, so continue to observe her behaviours and actions.