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Well,what's done is done. You didnt pushed for answers then,so now it is too late. If she is fateful now,stay married with her and try not to live wery miserable life. If she is willing to do thiangs for you to make things easier for you,great.We all have to realise that the word is a hard plase,and there is a lot of bad and evil people. She wants to stay married with you and that is good.I dont know if she realy loves you but you can never know that for sure. So,live your life as good as you can.

CBM, how are things going?

Things are going well, thanks for checking in. The last few weeks have been mainly positive, with a few setbacks here and there. My wife still stumbles from time to time with poor word choices or not giving me what I need when I need it (tough to get that one right all the time), but she continues to work on herself daily and show me that she loves me.

At this point, my main issues are trusting that there really is nothing else and keeping images out of my head. I don't doubt my wife's remorse or love. My wife has passed a poly and I try to remind myself of that, but it's hard not to feel that there isn't still "something else" and I continue to have a feeling of waiting for the other shoe to drop. I am guessing time is the only cure for what ails me.

One of the bigger setbacks for me was having the thought that my wife had more sex with her AP than I have had with anyone who isn't her. I only had sex twice before we were together, and I never strayed. She had sex with POSOM at least 3 times. This really bothers me, and makes me want to pursue sex elsewhere. Not to hurt her and not even behind her back, but just to undo what feels like a huge injustice and to satisfy a curiosity that nags at me about experiencing sex with someone else. I know it's not healthy, but I keep coming back to these thoughts and I will be discussing them in IC today.

What you describe is what I call a "Chasing Amy" moment. You should see the movie. Sort of dated, but one of the themes is exactly the sort of "compare tension" you describe.

I can share the benefit of my experience. I got married later in life, and I had a rather normal number of sex partners for an active, urban single guy my age. So did my wife. Our "sex numbers" were obviously not the same, and there was also the issue that each of us had some more experimental sexual experiences (such as multiple partner sex), but different than one another. All in all, her "raw number" was higher than mine, but my "weighted number" (in terms of outside-of-plain-vanilla experimentation) was higher.

Even though all of that activity, on both sides, completely pre-dated our meeting and deciding to get married, there was still a process of coming to grips with it, for both of us -- my wife had some twinges of insecurity over some of the more outré experiences from my past.

That's sort of a long way of saying that your feelings are normal. The only real difference is that you're facing it now rather than back when you first met. Ask yourself this. If your wife's experience had completely pre-dated you meeting her, would that have affected your decision to marry her? My hunch is that it would not have.

If the opportunity comes along for a roll in the hay with all four members of En Vogue, at the same time, your wife would probably forgive you if you went for it. Just kidding. That's my fantasy.

Cantbeme123- This is going to sound like I ma justifying affair or normalizing them, but I can tell you 100% that I am not.

There was a time in my recovery that I felt jealous of my W having experiences she did during her A. I knew my character would not allow me to do so, but in the end I was jealous in some of the same ways that you are.

I think IC is the right place to look into this. I can also tell you your view on this is fairly common for a BH. It strikes at the core of our insecurity and our identity as a man.

My W shared details of the one physical encounter and all of their interactions. The way she remembered them and the shame I saw her express helped me believe she did not see them as positive experiences at all. In time I saw them as pathetic to the point that I pitied her. Most WW regret these experiences to the point of self loathing.

I think the sex thing for me was also helped me us exploring new things and new experiences together. Doing things you've never done before satisfy the novelty aspect.

I know this sounds corny and cliched, but maybe you can have an A with your W. Plenty of things to do in that space. Discuss things that would be comfortable for you.

Sex was one the last part of relationship to recover. We even had a sexless M for a time for a lot reasons (mostly her). You set some ground rules (like it is ok to stop if triggers become too intense. Also doing because you think you should is a recipe for disaster too.

This one area your W can definitely help you. Talk to your IC and then talk to her about these things. You will likely learn that the way you see this and she does are very different.

That's sort of a long way of saying that your feelings are normal. The only real difference is that you're facing it now rather than back when you first met. Ask yourself this. If your wife's experience had completely pre-dated you meeting her, would that have affected your decision to marry her? My hunch is that it would not have.

I think this is actually why it hurts - I DID deal with similar feelings when we first started dating, and came to terms with her having many more sexual experience than I had and other related feelings about her life before us. Her and her long term boyfriend had sex every fucking way imaginable, such that it felt like I could never bring anything new to the table. It sucked. Now, here I am dealing with it all over again, and in a much more unfair way.

My wife was not accountable to me while being the person she was before we dated, and I knew that, and it was still difficult to accept some things and let it go. For the A sex, she was accountable to me and did it anyway, knowing how insecure I can be and how much it would hurt me. Of course, she never thought about me at all, but I am hurting none the less.

I think the sex thing for me was also helped me us exploring new things and new experiences together. Doing things you've never done before satisfy the novelty aspect.

I know this sounds corny and cliched, but maybe you can have an A with your W. Plenty of things to do in that space. Discuss things that would be comfortable for you.

Sex was one the last part of relationship to recover. We even had a sexless M for a time for a lot reasons (mostly her). You set some ground rules (like it is ok to stop if triggers become too intense. Also doing because you think you should is a recipe for disaster too.

I have a few thoughts here. First, sex recovered very quickly for us, in fact it never really went away. We had HB early on and while I don't think it's HB anymore, we still have sex around 4-5 times a week. I think the fact that her A was so long ago helped me in not losing my desire for her. Unsurprisingly, our relationship was probably the most sex-starved in the first couple years after her A because of her internal conflicts with it (all unknown to me at the time).

Second, we have gotten more adventurous lately and I do like having things with her that are "mine" completely and unshared by anyone else. I think my wife is up for trying anything I want, but I don't know how much I am interested in the "role playing" side or "reclaiming her" by way of copying the ways she had sex with her AP. I have had this suggested by others, and I just don't think it would work for me. Maybe one day I'll be up to try it.

Finally, what concerns me is that the main "novelty" that I pine for is sex with someone else. I feel like I gave up my youth too fast in pursuit of "true love" and now that the "true love" part is tarnished, I have some anger about not getting to experience more things sexually before settling down.

I only had sex with one other girl, and it was only twice, and both times were drunken and unmemorable (figuratively and literally, as in I can barely remember them). Meanwhile, my wife has had sex with 4 other guys, but had sex hundreds of times with one of them and had many other hookups that got "almost there", not to mention her affair after we both committed to giving up sex with other people.

Now I'm in my mid-30s and any feelings of youth are quickly disappearing, and I honestly find myself coming back to this place of curiosity and wanting to "balance" things, to make it fair, to find justice. I have discussed getting "professional help" such that I would not have an affair and it would happen with my wife's knowledge. It's not about hurting her. If she is hurt a little by it, well then so be it, I've been hurt plenty by her actions too, and mine "wouldn't be about her" just like her A "wasn't about me".

Anyway, I keep going back to that thought and I'm not sure what to do with it. I don't want to have an affair. I also don't want to feel unsatisfied and thinking "what if" my whole life.

CantBeMe123, I can totally relate to your recent comments.

My WW and I were firsts for everything, and were HS sweethearts. I had dated before her, but was never sexual with anyone else. So was she...until the ONS before marriage. I too found out about the ONS (18 years ago) at the same time as her PA (2015).

I've been struggling with the fact she has had sex with 2 other men since we got together. She did things with her AP that I wouldn't ask for (very demeaning to her), and there is one act that she has said makes her feel uncomfortable, and I have told her I wont ask for it. Nobody, regardless of an A should do things that they are not comfortable with. And yes, she did it with her AP. She has told me she'll do it for me, no questions asked, but I do respect her choice on this.

Ironically enough, I was away in SoCal last week and was propositioned by a barfly. Would have been so easy to take her back to the room, but it just didnt interest me at all. I dont get propositioned very often and yeah, it feels good to be desired but I wouldn't be able to face my wife and lie about it. I know this for sure.

I too an seeing an IC for my ED issues post A. I'll certainly share any breakthrough's I may get from him on this topic.

Look I am not opposed to doing anything you need to do to heal, but do really think that is the answer to this ?

Through this process you will do things and have to look back on them later. My biggest regrets are things I did in R, that at the time, seemed like they would help. I can't change them and it put me in a position of needing grace. Not a good place to be in at all.

Logically, it seems like it would help, sure. Only you have to live with the choices that you make. No one can tell how things will turn out. Don't you see the risk that this could very well prevent you from where you want to be ?

What is done. Nothing will ever change that. You have the benefit of making a choice today with more information than your W had when she had an A.

I get it. You want some form of compensation for your pain. Do you see the similarities to the justification a WS would use to alleviate their guilt when choosing to have an A ?

Is that choice a you would make in any other scenario.

Again, I understand. Not trying to dictate what you do. I am just saying to think on it more. This would be something, once done, that can't be undone no matter what details surround it.

I know your wife would be hurt by it. I also think that it would alleviate her guilt and allow her to minimize her own hurtful actions.

What if she can't heal from that and can't find the same grace that you have had ?

Fair ? Not at all. Just be mindful that we all have to own the choices we make. Any consequences we suffer, intended or not, will be forever with us.

There is nothing that erases or excuses an affair. Nothing.

If you want to see how this could play out go read the I can relate forum for emotionless infidelity. Those BS don't hurt any less than we do.

In general terms...although I have to be careful here because we aren't supposed to generalize...but I think this needs to be clarified and said-

It's not uncommon for a man to feel insecure and even emasculated when he is with a woman that has substantially more sexual partners and experience than him. It's actually more common to feel that than not.

It's normal to feel hurt when she did things willingly for others that she won't do for you. When she showed zero hesitation, zero barriers, and broke all the rules for him...but makes you wait...or says "I don't do that". Enthusiastic sex for the AP...starfish sex for the BH.

That hurts.

The reality on it is that she is making a value judgement about the level of effort required to keep you vs the level of effort required to keep him. She is saying to you via actions, that you are not worth the level of effort that she put into the prior relationship.

You see this when a "good girl" makes a "good guy" wait for sex...while she will drag some dirtbag guy out of a bar and bang him in the parking lot.

It's one of those hard realities in man world. Women judge...and that's not a bad thing...but it's real and that value based judgement she puts on you about what level of effort is required to keep you...is usually pretty accurate.

Women are very good at reading emotions and putting an accurate value assessment on what it takes to make a man feel XYZ. Women are vastly more capable of reading emotion and similar. Evolutionary biology makes up for their lack of muscle with a highly tuned sense of self/others/and the environment.

The concise version of the above is that women will make rules for men they don't think will leave them and break rules for men they want to keep happy. If she is making rules for you to follow...and breaking/or broke them for him...you know where she sees you in the pecking order.

Good luck.

Your feeling is quite common. The fact that some of her experience occurred in an A makes it more acute for you, I reckon, though as you describe it the amount of sex in her A was a small percentage of her overall prior-to-marriage sex.

I don't really have an answer for you. People get married with X amount of sexual experience. Years later, they begin to wonder what X+1 might have felt like. If your spouse had X+5, there might be a jealousy component in there. Per your description, your spouse had X+100, and then had an A that added 1 or 2 to that.

Yet you committed to her and that has to mean something. It sounds like she is willing to experiment and explore to make your sex life fun, varied, and interesting. That's way more than a lot of men married 10+ years can say. So to the extent you may be jealous about sexual experience with others, there are many men who would be jealous of your sexual opportunities with your wife. It's all relative.

My wife and I had an interesting dynamic on that issue because her raw "sex number" was higher than mine, but my "weighted number" was higher -- in that I did a lot more stuff considered less than plain vanilla than she had. I was jealous of her "number", she was jealous of my "degree of difficulty". The Chasing Amy moment, in both directions.

Jameson -

I've been struggling with the fact she has had sex with 2 other men since we got together. She did things with her AP that I wouldn't ask for (very demeaning to her), and there is one act that she has said makes her feel uncomfortable, and I have told her I wont ask for it. Nobody, regardless of an A should do things that they are not comfortable with. And yes, she did it with her AP. She has told me she'll do it for me, no questions asked, but I do respect her choice on this.

Ironically enough, I was away in SoCal last week and was propositioned by a barfly. Would have been so easy to take her back to the room, but it just didnt interest me at all. I dont get propositioned very often and yeah, it feels good to be desired but I wouldn't be able to face my wife and lie about it. I know this for sure.

I'm sorry your wife put you through that. That's awful. My wife thankfully did not do any sexual acts beyond "regular sex" (unless she's hiding something - always possible!). However, the circumstances of her A sex (i.e., how quickly, where it happened, etc) has been the hardest part for me to come to accept. She just seemed to give it away so easy and with such little self-respect or respect for me. Fairly typical of an A, I have come to learn, but so heartbreaking on top of everything else.

Honestly, if I got propositioned like you did, I question if I would turn it down. I got very close to having my own affair last year and basically allowed myself to take it as far as I wanted except for physical contact, which I justified by my wife having kissed someone else and so I was still "behaving better". Had I known her kiss was actually weeks/months of sex, I am almost certain I would have let mine cross into sex too.

n&d - I hear you and I've read very similar things from many other people on here. We as BS are "better than that" and an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind, right? It just makes me more angry to consider it that way - like in the game of life, the "winning move" is to have an affair first. I know no one actually wins after an A, but you catch my gist I hope.

Unbroken78 - I'm not sure why you feel the need to continue to post on my thread, but thanks for at least being respectful this time. Your points are valid too - I hear you. Our sex has never been vanilla and has gotten less so over time, I have no complaints on that. I do hate how easily she gave it away to her AP, as mentioned above. I mostly hate that she gave it to anyone at all after we committed to each other, no matter how quickly or slowly or whatever. It's the "sex with someone else" that bothers me, not the type of sex, and that's what makes my urge to have my own non-wife sex harder to ignore.

BFTG -

Yet you committed to her and that has to mean something. It sounds like she is willing to experiment and explore to make your sex life fun, varied, and interesting. That's way more than a lot of men married 10+ years can say. So to the extent you may be jealous about sexual experience with others, there are many men who would be jealous of your sexual opportunities with your wife. It's all relative.

Thanks for this. We do have a great sex life and I know we have better sex than many, many other people out there. I am thankful for that.

Her and her long term boyfriend had sex every fucking way imaginable

I doubt that... For example, has she been photographed by a boudoir (female) photographer before (imaybe you can do it if you know how)

My suggestion: ask your wife to come up with new things that she has never done and is comfortable with. You might be surprised. I had the average number of GF before my 2nd marriage and my experience is not the number of partners one had but how much enthusiasm your woman partner has...

[This message edited by ShutterHappy at 5:22 PM, January 24th (Thursday)]

Hey CBM, yeah, the ease at which my WW gave it away was something I couldn't rationalize. Her ONS was literally the guy saying "hey, want to f#ck?", that's all it took. Blows my mind. That's the kind of joke young men laugh about. Ask 100 women to screw and maybe one of 100 will say yes. Unfortunately for me, my WW was the 1%.

[This message edited by Jameson1977 at 5:52 PM, January 24th (Thursday)]

She just seemed to give it away...

When a guy has sex with a woman, is he "giving it away"?

I think this whole "giving it away" thing is 99% a societal norm, and that women in fact like sex too, and don't just always use it as a bartering mechanism for something in a relationship. I've known enough that like the physical activity to know that there's plenty of them out there. They are human beings too. It's society that calls them "whores".

I do think it is potentially you that are saying she "gave it away" when maybe she thinks she engaged in it, and it wasn't a gift she gave to someone else, it was a gift to herself.

Women, feel free to weigh in here.

Not saying it makes everything hunky-dory A-OK, believe me, but I think it is potentially a more honest appraisal of the situation.

Yeah, I think a guy gives it away same as a woman. I do get where you're coming from though. In my WW's case, the ONS was totally random and unplanned, and yeah, she wanted sex and enjoys sex, so she did it, no emotions involved.

Appreciate what you have and stop about what you do not have.

What your wife found out is the cost far exceeded the benefit.

CBM123- In talking with my wife last night she pointed out something, that as a guy, I often lose sight of.

Guys regret the women they don't sleep with and women regret the ones that they do sleep with. You follow me that while you look back on your past experiences with some pride (or insecurity as it were) Most women look back on some of those as mistakes, regrets. I get it is not the same for every man or women. People are too complex creates to boils us down into all or nothing generalizations.

Your W, more than likely, doesn't ever regret sleeping with you. Ever. No other guy can say that. You are unique and special to her. She wanted/wants a life with you. You are minimizing your own value and worth in an indirect way by making these comparisons. Talk to her about these things. Give her a chance to provide you the compensation you seek, but in the least destructive way.

I think the her number versus your number thing is something you need to talk to with your IC. Insecurity is really behind this and I think there is a lot more there that won't be resolved so easily.

Look, I get this 1,000,000%. I get why you are pondering it. I get how much it hurts. In healing there are healthy ways and unhealthy ways to feel better. I can tell you the healthy ones work better over the longer term. The unhealthy ones seem like they will work and probably do for awhile, but the benefit get heavily outweighed by the cost.

Certain choice limit our options. Don't limit your options.

I haven't read the whole thread, so I may be repeating something. If so, it bears repeating.

The A was 12 years ago. D-day was 3 months ago. That means you are 3 months into the recovery process, and your mind takes you every which way at that point.

Also, your GF cheated when she was 23. The latest research I've seen is that men and women mature at about the same time - mid-20s for most of us. She was arguably still maturing when she cheated, and most of us give kids some leeway. The idea of giving an apparent adult leeway is hard to stomach, but I think he immaturity may very well have been in play 12 years ago. (Bear with me ... for the record, you can still leave, since any infidelity can be reason fro ending the relationship.)

Suppose she had come clean in 2006? Would you have ended your relationship? Could you have gotten back together happily later? If you had split in 2006, would you be pining away for her still? 'Yes' answers indicate you want to be M to your W ... which means being a faithful partner, among other things.

Do you want to spend the rest of your life together? If so, cheating now - as an adult - would put that in jeopardy.

Do you really believe 2 wrongs make a right? Have you seen the madhatter thread in ICR - https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=509142 I suggest reading about their struggles. I also suggest looking at your W. Do you want to deal with the crap she caused herself?

Most of the above is logic, opinion, and talking about the wrath of, if not God, being a madhatter.

What do you really want? Great sex that improves with time and practice? I'd say bring in a 3rd player after you've learned to get everything out of each other that is possible.

Do you want a great relationship with your W? How will a 3rd player help that?

Bottom line: I guess I'm saying your best bet is to be true to yourself. Be the person you want to be.

Maybe this thread might help you - https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=614738&AP=21. You can copy and paste the url or look for it in the JFO, G or R forums. (I bumped it, but forgot to check where the thread lives.)

[This message edited by sisoon at 9:34 AM, January 25th (Friday)]

Finally, what concerns me is that the main "novelty" that I pine for is sex with someone else. I feel like I gave up my youth too fast in pursuit of "true love" and now that the "true love" part is tarnished, I have some anger about not getting to experience more things sexually before settling down.

I have to add something here. I'm about to browbeat you to some extent, so be ready.

I don’t know a man, not one, who doesn’t have a feeling like this. We all rue the one that got away. I know men who had 30+ sex partners before marriage, but after marriage at some point they feel like they missed out on opportunities for me. "I never had sex with a black girl." "I never had a true ONS, you know, where you meet somebody at a bar or party, have sex, and never talk to them again. Maybe even never know her name. And my wife did that. I feel like I've missed my opportunity for that."

All men feel this way. It's part of our nature to feel like we gave this up by getting married. As another poster said above, men regret the sex we didn’t have. We’re hard-wired that way. Yes, your WW’s A exacerbated that specific feeling for you, and because of the recent DDay the feeling is raw. But it will pass.

I’m in my late 50’s. Been married well over 20 years. Lots of married friends. There are a lot of men at my age who are in marriages where sex is essentially dead and has been for decades. Decades. Because these men are faithful, and they don't want to leave their wives because they have families and feel compelled to be a father and provider, their sex is limited to quietly rubbing one out to Pornhub a few days a week just for physical relief.

Meanwhile, you have the goose that lays the golden egg. 10+ years married, kids, and the wife is still initiating sex and experimenting and going at it with frequency and brio. Do you realize how many men would kill to be in your shoes? Picture yourself in a bar with a buddy, both of you age 55, having a few. The topic of sex comes up. Your buddy regales you with a few stories of the glory days. The year he was captain of the high school football team and got a bj from the cheerleader beneath the stands after Homecoming. The office Christmas party at his first job out of college where he hooked up with the sexy receptionist in the hotel hot tub. Then the talk turns to the marriage and the family and the past 20 years. He hasn’t had sex with his wife in over 6 months, and the last time they did it she grudgingly said “yes” but gave him the “just lay there” position and admonished him to hurry up. They have sex on average 6-10 times a year, maybe less. Then you tell him about your sex life. I guarantee that any glee he felt remembering the handful of memories from the glory days will be buried beneath the weight of a couple of decades of sexual rejection and deprivation.

What I’m saying is that you have a very good thing. Don’t fuck it up.

Butforthegrace, remarkably resonant...

This post spoke to the vast majority of us men in our 50's.