SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

You are really doing a successful job of crucifying your marriage; your decisions are so appalling I cannot believe what I am reading. You are actually giving your wife permission to cheat; giving her permission to develop her emotional relationship with the OM until ultimately she leaves you; alone and heartbroken.

I have a homework assignment for you: Try reading a few hundred post on JFO, until it sinks in that you, more than your wife, are demolishing your relationship. Any day now the PA will restart; what will you do then? Apologize again?

I know that you are all so right, and I am writing something up now to give myself some kind of script later.

She is a lawyer and always plays the point-counter-point game, so as you can imagine a true emotional conversation is extremely hard when at every turn past conversations are being thrown in my face. I always tell her to please listen and try and understand me, instead of just listening so you can respond.

One of my best friends is a lawyer, if you engage in debate you will most likely lose. State the facts like there is no other possible consideration. Snow is white, my birthday is XX/XX/XXXX, etc etc etc. State it with confidence that there is no other possibility and nothing else to consider. When she attempts to rebuttle you, just ignore it. Once you've said your piece, walk away, mean it, enforce it, and walk down the path. You deserve much much much more than you are receiving but until you decide for it to stop it will not.

ETA (edited to add): this is not an emotional conversation, this is merely a factual conversation. "Marriage is between two people, not three. If you are unwilling or unable to send AND ENFORCE a no contact letter, I will be forced to consider alternative routes".

[This message edited by Mercilesslynuked at 4:17 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)]

Thanks everyone!! Here is what I am planning to say. You all have made me feel stronger than I have felt in a LOOONG time!

I’ve been reading a lot over the past few days. About coping and recovery. How difficult it is for men, especially one like me who may not be particularly good with expressing myself and speaking about how I feel.

I feel just so lost. I’m disgusted at myself for the decision I made last week. Why I ever thought you could maintain a relationship with the man you cheated on me with is just so insane to me. I think its because I love you and want you to be happy, but this just isn’t right. I’ll always be your best friend, but as your husband I cannot survive like this.

You said something very telling the other night when talking with Toog. You said that you can’t stand ultimatums and if backed into a corner that you’re going to find a way out…Well, I’m sorry to do this but I feel as if we are both backed into corners. Having this guy in our life is just not going to cut it. It’s so wrong on so many levels. I feel like such a chump, and a fool for ever having even thought it would be ok.

The affair is still happening right in front of my eyes. My heart gets ripped out with every text and every call, and I was a fool to think that it wouldn’t. If we are to have any hope of moving forward and breaking this cycle things have to change

I know that it’s harder to recover from the lies and cheating than it is to just recover from cheating. I acknowledge that and accept that. I know how much I have hurt you and am truly sorry. There is not a day that goes by where I don’t blush and feel shame for how I acted during that time. I have done all that I could over the past two years to prove to you that I am a better man than that, and today I know that I am a better man.

I want us. I want our marriage to work, but we are in store for nothing but pain on this current path. This has to stop. I was wrong to ever think it could be ok. I think I was weak, and thought I was doing the right thing at the time, but I was waaaay off base. It has to end. Not because I say so, but because the fate of our marriage is contingent upon it. He’s not your friend, he’s your boyfriend. You cannot have a friendship with the man you also had an affair with AND be married to me. It just won’t work, and obviously I cannot tolerate it. Hey, I tried, but I grow angrier by the day and it’s only a matter of time before I blow up. I feel like I granted you permission to carry on this affair, and the only result I can see is that you are continuing to develop your emotional relationship with him until you ultimately leave me, alone and even more heartbroken than I am today.

I know that I’m not the greatest, and in many ways this is karma coming back at me. But I do believe that I am a good and loving person, and I don’t deserve to be treated like this. I shouldn’t have to tolerate my wife having a boyfriend to work out all her marriage issues with. If that’s what you need then you don’t need me. Do you really want to be in a marriage with 3 people? I don’t.

I don’t want a divorce. I love being with you, but I simply can’t be with you in this manner. I’m sorry for being confusing, but I am very confused myself.

If you want us, then you need to choose me, and dump him. Totally. I know financially you can’t just skip jobs, but if he cannot excuse himself from the case, then maybe that is something we should seriously consider.

It has to end. I think what I am asking is what any reasonable person would ask for after an affair. I know our situation is indeed unique, but still I think asking you to dump him is not unreasonable. I love you, with all my heart. But I need to love myself just a little. I do need to be able to heal and I cannot with Greg still very much in your picture. We cannot heal together with anyone else tampering with our marriage.

You need to make a choice. Not a choice where you say you want me, but grieve for him constantly. You need to either pick our marriage or pick a relationship with him. We need to either move forward as individuals or move forward as a couple.

There is no right or wrong choice here. You need to decide and do what Susan wants to do. I will accept whichever you pick. If you need time, than I will accept that answer as well. But until you decide I will be emotionally separated. I am not leaving and will not abandon us. But my heart will be on hold, and my wedding ring will remain sitting on the dresser.

When you are ready, just ask her if her "friend" or her "husband" is more important. And walk away.

Sorry, but whatever she says, right now the true answer is her "friend."

Just let her know you're done, then sit back. She can't become remorseful over night. Reconciliation would be a humongously long road, and just get the hell out of the train tracks right now and step away from her and see what happens.

There's a lot to learn from the wayward if you just step back and look at them and their actions.

Just say, "RIGHT NOW, THE ANSWER IS NO." Then focus on you while she freaks out and tries to come up with a decent response.

Keep reading here. You will start learning the actions of a remorseful spouse versus an unremorseful spouse..

There is no way that you should be okay with this "friendship". She is having an affair, and want to have her cake and eat it too. As long as you let her be "friends" with this guy, the affair will continue.

Do the 180 and make it very clear to her that it is you or him. She needs to go no contact, devote herself to you and start doing the work to save her marriage.

You are still giving too much away. Taking on too much blame. Showing that you really are invested in staying. Still apologizing. Ok, you had an EA--that does not mean you need to qualify your needs. They remain just as valid. You need to love yourself 'a little bit'? No, try again! You need to love yourself more than that. I would cut at least 2/3rds of what you've written. You're getting there though! Try just this:

I shouldn’t have to tolerate my wife having a boyfriend to work out all her marriage issues with. If that’s what you need then you don’t need me. Do you really want to be in a marriage with 3 people? I don’t.

If you want us, then you need to choose me, and dump him. It has to end. We cannot heal together with anyone else tampering with our marriage.

You need to make a choice. Not a choice where you say you want me, but grieve for him constantly. You need to either pick our marriage or pick a relationship with him. We need to either move forward as individuals or move forward as a couple.

[This message edited by norabird at 4:36 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)]

Please take the advice given here and stand up for yourself. You may need to risk losing your marriage to shake her out of her fog. Don't accept this disgusting treatment from her. You deserve so much better.

I can tell you love her deeply. I think the vast consensus here will be that eloquent loving letters have the reverse impact of the intended effect so I'll let others weigh in on that aspect, but saying things such as

If you need time, than I will accept that answer as well.

is carte blanche for her to say she needs time and to continue her A or figure out how to take it further underground. Also WRT (with regards to) the ultimatum I wouldn't give her one as they are excruciatingly hard to back up and most of the time they backfire. You can phrase things two different ways:

1)If you don't dump your boyfriend, I will divorce you (clear ultimatum)

2)If you don't dump your boyfriend, I will be forced to reconsider my desire to remain married to you (open ended consequence instead)

Some food for thought, but in general I would tend to agree with ButterflyGirl - ten simple words, then silence. Walk away until she gives you an answer and backs it up with action. Her comfort zone is in debate, loopholes, twisting words and your heart to her desires. Take away her ammunition and force her to decide.

Here's the link to the 180 in the Healing Library.

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/faq_bs.asp#FAQ11

Here's the list:

Don't pursue reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.

No frequent phone calls.

Don't point out "good points" in marriage.

Don't follow her/him around the house.

Don't encourage or initiate discussion about the future.

Don't ask for reassurances.

Don't buy or give gifts.

Don't schedule dates together.

Don't keep saying, "I Love You!" Because if you have a brain in your head, he/she is at this particular moment, not very loveable.

Do more then act as if you are moving on with your life; begin moving on with your life!

Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent.

Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go out with friends, enjoy old hobbies, find new ones! But stay busy!

When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. Don't push any issue? No matter how much you want to!

If you're in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. Seem totally uninterested.

Your partner needs to believe that you have awakened to the fact that "they (the WS)" are serious concerning their assertions as to the future (or lack thee of) of your marriage. Thus, you are you are moving on with your life? with out them!

Don't be nasty, angry or even cold - Just pull yourself back. Don't always be so available? for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you're missing.

No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Make yourself be someone they would want to be around. Not a moody, needy, pathetic individual but a self assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value.

All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while). Initiate no such conversation!

Do not allow yourself to lose your temper. No yelling, screaming or name calling EVER. No show of temper! Be cool, act cool; be in control of the only thing you can control? YOURSELF!

Don't be overly enthusiastic.

Do not argue when they tell you how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger). In fact, refuse to argue at all!

Be patient and learn to not only listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you? HEAR what it is that they are saying! Listen and then listen some more!

Learn to back off, keep your mouth shut and walk away when you want to speak out, no matter what the provocation. No one ever got themselves into trouble by just not saying anything.

Take care of you. Exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil.

Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly.

Know that if you can do this 180, your smallest CONSISTENT action will be noticed far more than any words you can say or write.

Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are feeling totally desperate and needy.

Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. It's not always about you! More to the point, at present they just don't care!

Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives and do so in the most strident tones imaginable. Try to remember that they are also hurting and afraid. Try to remember that they know what they are doing is wrong and so they will say anything they can to justify their behavior.

Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. It "ain't over till it's over!"

Do not backslide from your hard earned changes. Remain consistent! It is the consistency of action and attitude that delivers the message.

When expressing your dissatisfaction with the actions of the wayward party, never be judgmental, critical or express moral outrage. Always explain that your dissatisfaction is due to the pain that the acts being committed are causing you as a person. This is the kind of behavior that will cause you to be a much more attractive and mysterious individual. Further it SHOWS that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life. Still more important, it will burst their positive little bubble; the one in which they believe that they can always come back to you in case things don't work out with the OM/OW."

She is actively IN AN AFFAIR right now. So, unremorseful, so it's time for the 180.

When and IF she starts ACTING the right way and saying the right things, you can hear her out. I know our temptation is to let them know everything in our heads and how we feel, but if she's actively cheating, there is NO reason to tell her where your head is at right now. Keep your thoughts protected from her.

The less you come in contact with her, the less chances she has to beat you down and make you apologize for YOUR issues and gaslight and manipulate you and make you feel like you're crazy. Don't let her do that to you anymore..

[This message edited by ButterflyGirl at 4:52 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)]

dude, I'm going to give you some hard truths, and I'm going to do that because 3 years ago I was you. My wife pleaded with me because she missed "her friend" so much and I relented. I even allowed them to "meet for closure". these days it makes me sick, but such are the things we do when we are in love and in shock.

right then.

You are traumatised. Pure and simple. right now you are letting your wife emotionally abuse you.

Scenario 1

She is going to feed on your pain and weakness and it is going to get worse and worse. She will take more and more advantage, and you will allow her to do so. you will be so desperate to see truth in her words and actions that you will believe her and give her room. your life gets more and more miserable and there is only darkness ahead of you. She'll continue to see this man, and other man, and you will get increasingly withdrawn and just accept more and more. she will see you as a doormat, have zero respect for you, and walk all over you without any thought of you.

Scenario 2

You will tell her that she can have her friend OR her husband and there is no room in the fucking middle. You tell her to choose. Now. She chooses to reconcile with you and commit to never ever speaking to the other man, or she packs her bags and leaves. You will her that you are done with her bullshit and done with being walked over. You TELL her this. You don't discuss it, you don't hold hands and chat about it. You tell her the way the world is and you make her realise that she does not get to fuck about with a man like you. She either stays or leaves, either way there is pain ahead but light in your future, and there is an end to this emotionally abusive nonsense.

It's your life, dude. Decide which way it's going to go.

For the record, scenario 1 is the direction I was going in at the start, and it's pure copper bottomed bullshit. You cannot "nice" your wife back. You can't "love" her back into the marriage. You'll be seen as being pathetic, because that's really what you would be being.

You need to nut up or shut up. You love your wife so much and want her back so much you have not stopped to say "hang on a minute, what about my life, my happiness".. Your wife needs a wake up call. She needs to see you are a man to be respected, and not a doormat. You need to remember that too. I know it's terrifying, I really do, but you deserve better than this. Grit your teeth, stand up straight, and go tell her to sort her life out or piss off because you need to get on with your life with or without her. Any messing about whatsoever, any doubt, any indecision, then walk away without a word and then literally slap divorce papers in front of her with no warning.

The very best chance you have of saving your marriage is by doing the most counter intuitive things. My wife didn't stop this bullshit I walked in one day and threw the divorce papers in her lap. THAT'S when we started to reconcile.

[This message edited by LonelyHusband at 5:04 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)]

what everyone else said. And find your anger, use a couple F words like lonelyhusband suggested, forget about nicing her back into the marriage. IT DOESN'T WORK!

She is a lawyer and always plays the point-counter-point game, so as you can imagine a true emotional conversation is extremely hard when at every turn past conversations are being thrown in my face.

Then I take it she knows how to read divorce papers? You've gotten good advice. This isn't a game. You can end up really emotionally traumatized for a long time if you continue to let her do this. Not much of a future if every conversation is rehashing the past. That point and counter game is a defense method against owning her shit.

I feel like such a fool. Like why does she even think this is all ok?

I understand feeling like a fool. BTDT. The thing is, right now, your W is active in an A. She's the one actively violating her vows. She's the one who thinks her ap is more important to her than you are. She's the one who thinks she can't live without her ap. She's the one who's given up reality. She's the fool. You're not - you're just in love, sad, angry, and scared.

***********************************************

R requires 3 healings. You heal you. She heals her. Together you heal your M. All 3 are necessary for R, but you can heal yourself no matter what she does. You just can't R unless she gets on board.

WRT your script, gently, lots of words means weakness. You have lots of strengths - get in touch with them. (The 180 s good for that.)

Normal requirements for R include:

NC - total on her part (and yours); if om gets in touch with her, she needs to let you know, and together you decide how to respond (which normally will mean no response at all to the first contact, a lawyer's letter for the 2nd, and an RO for the 3rd.

Transparency - she keeps you aware of her whereabouts and companions at all times - and no companions who are not friends of your M.

Honesty - she answers your questions truthfully

IC - for her, to change from cheater to good partner

IC - for you as BS if you want it (and based on your story, I think it will help you)

MC - as and when appropriate

BTW, you cheated, too, so she might have requirements for R that you have to agree to meet.

These are non-negotiable. You pretty much can't R without the top 4 in place. Some people try without IC for the WS, but I think it's definitely necessary for your W, unless your description is way off.

If she refuses to do any one of the above, that's OK. It just means you can't R. You can still recover - but without her. You can do it. You lived the 1st 19 years of your life without her.

So lay out the requirements simply, and give her a choice. No need to surround them with sweet words. Make the requirements clear, so she can make her choice as easily as possible. There may be a need for clarification, but really, there's no need for discussion. She just has to make a simple choice.

Don't defend the requirements; it's OK to want what you want. You both broke the M. You both get to say what you require for R. If the requirements for R conflict, no problem - the conflict just means R is off the table.

If she chooses not to deliver, do the 180 - limit conversations to kids and finances. She ended your M, so file for D. If she changes her mind, you can delay finalizing the D.

Your M is dead, if it ever actually lived. You've already lost her love, if you ever actually had it. If you can't agree on what your new M will be, it's time to split. (And BTW, you're more likely to find a new long term partner than she is....)

BTW, don't commit to R now. Observe your W's behavior for at least 3 months, and at least 6 would be better. Don't commit to R until you've observed her consistently behave in ways that support R.

Best of luck.

[This message edited by sisoon at 5:44 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)]

Honestly, your wife sounds like she has a serious personality disorder. Google Borderlne personality disorder.

I would start getting my ducks in a row, and the minute your son turns 18, I would run and never look back.

Sadly, personality disorders are extremely difficult to treat even if the individual wants to change, and it does not sound like your wife would ever consider that she may have a problem, much less want to change.

Ask yourself this: are you 'in love' with who she actually is, or are you 'in love' with whom you would like for her to be? Think about it.

Highland,

First off, let me say that we really do understand the pain that you are going through. It is some of the worst pain that you will ever experience in your life.

You love your wife so much, and are so afraid of losing her, that you are selling your soul to the devil. You are compromising every bit of integrity and shred of moral decency in the hopes of getting your wife back.

The problem is that this won't work....and you already know it. You knew it wouldn't work from the beginning.

You have received great advice. You have to stand up for what is right. You have to realize that losing your wife would hurt a whole hell of a lot less than sharing her...which is what is happening right now. If you need to hand her something in writing, I agree with norabird's much-shortened version of your letter. Otherwise, tell her how it has to be to move forward. Reread StillGoing's post:

They can't be friends. Ever. You need to decide if you want your wife to have a boyfriend or not, and if she won't show you the minimal respect required of a relationship, you have to decide whether or not you want to remain in this relationship with her.

The affair has never ended. It is still full on 100% whatever it was before. The only difference now is that it has your sanction because you are confused as all hell, hurting and she is abusing that.

Just to repeat: they cannot ever be friends. They are still having an affair. She should not even still be working at the same job with him if she wants to R with you, IMO. That cut and dry.

It really is that cut and dry...if you want to try to reconcile.

One last thing that I would suggest, if you do not consider this site a safe haven for you: Being that she does NOT believe that having this person as a "friend" is wrong, have her post on this site in the Wayward Forum. I don't care how good her dialect is---they will call her out for EVERY wayward thought that is going through her head.

Maybe not a good idea...but it is another suggestion.

You haven't been around long enough to know, from reading multiple threads and postings, that being the nice, loving Betrayed Husband doesn't do a thing to save your Marriage. There have been and are some here who just cannot take decisive action. They are not happy, nor are their marriages steered towards reconciliation.

As others have said, she simply will not respect you if she perceives you as weak and pliable.

Now is the time for calm. Ever see the Godfather when he delivered what the person he was speaking to would perceive as a threat? Cool, calm and collected. Normal conversational tone. You don't have to cut off the horse's head to get your point across. You list your "demands" and state the consequences if she cannot accept them. Her choice. Decide now, not tomorrow or next week.

You cheated, you reformed. She's cheating, she isn't reforming. That's not a fair outcome. History is history, the present is the present. And you must focus on the present. This isn't about marital disputes or perceived failings. Its about infidelity that's active and open.

Simply tell her, without all those words you wrote, you cannot live in a three person marriage. Then your demands, and the consequences. Shut up and listen to her response. Sure, she may lie, but you will be watching her behavior rather than listening to her promises which aren't worth the paper they're not written on.

If she wants her marriage, she'll decide properly. If not, you know what your next step is: divorce filing.

I'm not going to add my two cents because you have been given some really great advice.

I'm just going to give you hug! You really need one right now.

(((HighlandPaddy)))

I agree with many of other posters about ditching the book you wrote. It comes from a place of weakness overall and as a lawyer and a wayward she'll use it against you.

Really the laying it out there isn't about her. It's about you, your self respect and what you will or will not tolerate.

There can't be a marriage with three people in it. Either you go immediate no contact with him and sever all connections or I am done. You are an adult and you can do what you want but I want, need and deserve a partner who respects me, loves me and wants to be with me. If you can't be that person, pack your bags and get out now. PERIOD! There is no debate in this.

I also agree that your wife is very highly likely to have either hystrionic or borderline personality disorder and the odds of her facing her demons and getting emotionally and mentally healthy are incredibly low if that's the case.

You need to get into IC stat. You need to start developing some self love an self respect. You've put up with her abusive cheating for way, way too long. Your little ea (and I don't condone those either) was nothing compared to the heap of shit she's piled on you over the years with her blatant lack of empathy, caring, or love for you.

We teach people how to treat us and for years by putting up with and taking her back when she cheats you've taught her that she can disrespect you and step out on you without consequences so it's perfectly ok. Slam that door shut now in a very calm but hard way.

[This message edited by KatyaCA at 12:37 AM, July 3rd (Thursday)]

You are all amazing and I thank you. I feel so emotional right now, but very strong and inspired at the same time.

I'm gonna give this some time to soak in, and read it a few times so that I know I will stick to the plan.

The gauntlet drops this weekend, that is for sure.