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I'm sorry jb.

You have done the work to save your marriage. You have earned the right to end it with your head held high.

{{{hugs}}}

k9

I read SI for support. It is very rare that something I read here (and there is so much tragedy) hurts as badly as reading this story.

You have earned every ounce of respect that you get from people here, and in your life. Of course you "know" this, but you need to hear it more: you didn't deserve this, it is on her.

I agree, this is a very sad story. I wish you a full recovery into singlehood, a previous poster said it well, that you can know that you have absolutely gone the "extra mile" here, nothing that you could have done to save your marriage wasn't done.

If there is one thing that I would call a red flag, is that deep down, I thought something lacked in the remorse.

Well, it seems your wife hid her authentic self from you. I was lucky, mine's "true colors" came shining through quite brightly and quickly.

[This message edited by tfkeel at 1:35 PM, July 3rd (Thursday)]

I guess I can only say this in theory, but if he ever does this again, I'm done. Done done done done done. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. I won't go through it again, the reconciling. No way, no how. Nada. I think cutting ties fast and cauterizing the wound is the way to go.

I know you'll find your right path. Just...don't put any "shoulds" on your list. Do what is best for YOU.

Amazingly, she never begged for another chance. She just went about work on herself, and has been sober to this day. And it was that I saw her pouring the work into herself, that I subconsciously put the divorce on hold.

My guess - she was working on herself, and assumed you were moving forward with D. When you didn't, but didn't actually talk about staying married, she was just indifferent. She's obviously deeply disturbed. Multiple AFF, alcohol, etc. She has some deep issues that she's not getting to in IC. After this long, she probably will never get there. She didn't care much about getting divorced, and she didn't care much when it didn't happen. I'm sorry - I know that's hard, but if we BSs know anything, it's that we have an amazing capacity for seeing what we want to see, and not what's in our faces.

She is not a good liar, and that just isn't her style. She doesn't put on facades for others

Case in point - she's been in a multi-year affair. She IS a good liar. She DOES put on a facade. She is NOT who she presents herself to be, to anyone. She presents herself as a normal, adjusted, ordinary wife/mother. Her actions for the last 5 years tell us that's anything but true. Her entire life is a facade.

But you love her (or her facade), so you see these good things - not a good liar, not fake, etc. when you know, deep down, the opposite is true.

She probably isn't a good liar - she's probably a great liar. Great liars are so good, they will tell little lies they want to get caught at, and tell them in an 'Im a bad liar' way so the people around them think "Oh, they're the worst liars - that's why I know he/she is telling the truth." I know this because it's my H. I didn't know it until his A. Now, I know when he's lying because I went back through my head and saw al the lies. I have a wonderful ability to recall things with great detail. Not completely photographic, but the details, the expressions and inflections, I remember those, for years. After his A, I hated this about myself, but I used it to replay the lies. I realized there were similarities that no one would ever have picked up on. That's when I realized his 'bad liar' act was just that.

My H has/had a lot of issues. Issues I had no clue about. He still has them, as some issues are just a part of who we are. He is, however, doing his best to change how he handles himself and how he reacts to certain situations. Although honestly, after this, I'm really wondering if that's just another act.

God, I hate this A shit.

jb, you've been amazing to the members here, myself included, on so many occasions. The things you said to others, the support, the advice, it was all correct. You had learned about affairs. You had learned why people cheat. You had learned what boundaries are. You did your part. You trusted, but not like before. Unfortunately, the more you let your guard down, the less she kept the A deeply hidden. I'm sure soon after it started, she was guarding OM with her life. As she realized you were more trusting, she got lazy, and here we are. I'm so sorry. You did NOTHING to deserve this. This is NOT about you.

I know for a fact, if this were me, I couldn't reconcile. This isn't a "if he cheats he's gone" statement. I've given this great thought. I went through hell. The combing through everything, the hating myself, him, everything. The years of rebuilding my self-esteem, and it's still not where it was, and I don't think it ever will be again. No, I wouldn't leave because he didn't deserve another chance. I would leave because I wouldn't put myself through that again, particularly knowing that there was no way I could ever trust him, his feelings for me, or anything else that involved him ever again. I won't live like that. If there is ever another A, or if I find out this one is still going, or is restarted, I will leave. No fights, no whys, just me walking. I don't deserve to go through that again.

I don't think you deserve to go through that again. I know this is a hard decision, and your world is spinning out of control right now. We're all here for you, no matter what you do. We all know this is YOUR marriage, YOUR family, YOUR life. I know you'll do what's best for you.

I can't believe she's done this to you. Honestly, I'm angry right now. I'm so damned angry! We all know how devastating an A is when you're the BS. For her to cheat multiple times, with basically anyone with an AFF account, and see the heartbreak and destruction it causes, and to ignore all of that and cheat again, for years, starting right after the last DDay? I'm pissed off. Maybe it's a cover for my fear that, at any moment, this story could be from any one of us, myself included. I'm not sure.

I am sure of this - your WW is damned lucky I don't know her IRL. If I did, she'd know exactly how pissed off I am.

I'm so sorry she's behaved so selfishly. You deserve so much more.

Again, everyone----thank you for the replies. It really means a lot to me.

She probably isn't a good liar - she's probably a great liar. Great liars are so good, they will tell little lies they want to get caught at, and tell them in an 'Im a bad liar' way so the people around them think "Oh, they're the worst liars - that's why I know he/she is telling the truth." I know this because it's my H. I didn't know it until his A. Now, I know when he's lying because I went back through my head and saw al the lies. I have a wonderful ability to recall things with great detail. Not completely photographic, but the details, the expressions and inflections, I remember those, for years. After his A, I hated this about myself, but I used it to replay the lies. I realized there were similarities that no one would ever have picked up on. That's when I realized his 'bad liar' act was just that.

While I still may not believe this, I have to put more consideration into this----especially if I am looking as to where I fell hook, line and sinker. How do I go for three years if she wasn't good at deception?

Spoke very little to her today. Once on the phone in the morning, then face to face around 8pm tonight. When she called this morning, I did get the token "sorry", followed by some poor pleas. It went something like this:

Her: "I'm Sorry. I do love you very much."

Me: "Save it. I have learned that you do NOT love me, if you are able to treat me with such disrespect for so long. You better start looking deeper than this."

Her: "Tell me what to do. Tell me what you want. I will do it. Just tell me what you want."

Me(angrily): "Are you kidding me? If you are serious, you can start by NEVER ASKING ME THAT FUCKING QUESTION AGAIN. I will give you one piece of advice this one time only---get your fucking head out of your ass, and start finding out what has made you a bad mother, a terrible wife, and a horrible human being. Start there. There is no way on Earth that I am going to carry you through this."

End of morning conversation. I did make a couple of other suggestions to not only assert my view, but to gage her response. I told her that the more I thought about it, that she should leave the house. I told her to go to OM's house. She said that she can't, and this is her house too, and doesn't have to leave. I told her that she was correct in the fact that I can't legally force her to leave, and it was a suggestion in the kid's best interest. But I assured her that there was no way that she was staying in the marital bedroom. She agreed to move into the guest room, which is what I really expected.

Tonight was not as I wanted, but some things needed to be resolved. I was not happy with what went on, but they were natural progressions towards ending the marriage. I needed a couple of basic questions answered, but got some replies that I did not expect. I found out all I need to know about Mr. Scumbag---a weasel who is a few years older than me, and lives in his father's basement. I know, I know---no headspace. But it will take a little time. I got some unexpected blameshifting headed my way, but I put a huge lockdown on that...although she doesn't get this yet, to my surprise. She asked me if I have ever questioned my role as to why she keeps cheating...and if I have any responsibility. When I assured her that I have my faults, but guarantee that they had ZERO to do with her cheating, she got standoffish. I let her know that her current attitude is EXACTLY where she could start focusing....if she wants to be a better person in the future. I realized at this point how little empathy that she ever had for me, and let her know that this was her biggest reason for her continued behavior.

I have to be honest. I was angrily shocked at her attitude---but maybe it was for the better for me to see this. I may be on a fast track to divorce, but I still wanted to see her fight for me---which I wasn't seeing.

We agreed to check out single sided mediation....to save on divorce expenses.

A little more anger led to my last bit of advice for her. She told me that she realizes that she has merely switched addictions(alcohol for attention). My response was to focus on that realization. But her passive "I have to look for another counselor" set me off. I told her to get proactive for a change. There are a thousand fucking websites right at her fingertips that she can start to investigate. She also stated that her current IC seemed to think that affairs were okay, if the marriage had problems....which is why she needs a new IC. Again, this irks the hell out of me. I told her, if she KNEW that this is wrong...which she acknowledges...why the hell isn't she getting a new IC like yesterday?!! I told her this is all part of her unresolved problems that, in my opinion, she has no idea of how to address. She can see what is right and wrong, but refuses to ask for help in tackling these feelings RIGHT NOW.

I assured her that she will never get better unless she works on this. I am getting pissed typing this on the screen. How can it be this fucking obvious to me, as to where to get started, but she has a deer-in-the-headlights look?

I finished my fantastic night by having a talk with my 17 year old. I now know what he knew...and for how long...and where we go from here. He does see her as a good mother, and does not put her character into her "motherly" role. And while I want him to be comfortable to talk to me, I let him know that it is the character flaws that will creep into your real-life experiences down the road. He may not see it now, but it will surface somewhere....and somehow.

This will be a consecutive night without sleep. I can feel some anger flowing in. I know what I should and shouldn't do at the moment, but this is where I feel like I need to crawl out of my own skin. I get FURIOUS that she can sleep, while I stew on my future. I have read enough divorce material online in the last day to cover a lifetime. I need to move forward...as fast as possible.

I don't have the words brother. I'm so sorry for your situation. I believe the universe is trying to tell you something. It's time for a change because banging your head against a wall ain't getting it done. We're here for you and you've been heard.

Nothing you'll hear from me is anything you here is anything you haven't told others. Detach. She is still relying on you as he sounding board and for advice. And I suspect the result of that is that she feels somewhat better and you feel,much worse.

She has fired you from you job as husband and protector. Don't volunteer for that unpaid job. OM sounds like a man with plenty of time on his hands. Let him offer the help.

Your job is to end this fiasco as easily as possible. And to get on with a normal life. You cannot be the lifeboat for WW every time her actions cast her adrift and in harm's way. She has used up,those privileges now.

I hope your son, on the cusp of young adulthood, can see the havoc alcohol brings and avoid addiction. You can be his support and he may need it.

This is all on your WW. Not her new age goofy IC. She knew better from past experience. She just found someone who told her what she wanted to hear.

Your race with her is over. You ran the best race,. She chose the handicap of multiple addictions.

[This message edited by Schadenfreude at 3:46 AM, July 4th (Friday)]

Schad,

I know that detachment is essential---hence the moving out of the bedroom...and the suggestion of moving out completely. As I sit here 45 minutes from daylight, and another day without sleep, I continue to push myself to do what needs to be done. I probably won't file until next week, after my consultations(why don't you schedule me in?), but my clock is ticking. While I would want nothing more than to see my WW move the world on its axis with efforts, I still couldn't let that prevent me from detaching, and deciding with an unstrung heart, what I want to do next.

I never realized how damaging alcohol could be. She may literally be rewired...obviously for the worse...for the rest of her life.

An absolute shame for a once very moral woman.

I'm only acquainted with alcohol. I've never treated it as my friend or savior. But in my younger days when I'd represent repeat offender drunk drivers I spent enough time in literature and with alcohol counselors to learn he lesson that it is perhaps the most difficult addictions to successfully treat long term. Too available and socially acceptable etc. that's just one daily hurdle she faces.

Her OM choice puts her in the running for cake eater of the decade. How do you think she'll fare financially on her own without you as the safety net? But that should not be your concern. Look out for your own interests. You have no idea how fast your 50's will pass. The law of doubling decade speed really picks up.

I am troubled by your sons silence but think he may have been trying to maintain status quo.

[This message edited by Schadenfreude at 5:26 AM, July 4th (Friday)]

jb,

I've been a long-time, 18-month lurker; your saga has prompted me to post for the first time. I haven't read your posts in the past (I've stuck mainly on the LTA, Menz, and When Your Spouse Leaves for their AP, threads), so am unfamiliar with your story.

This end of your recent post struck a chord with me: "An absolute shame for a once very moral woman."

For the longest time, I believed simply that my ex was "lost," and MIGHT come to her senses. I was willing to try R; she chose not to. Even at that point, I still believed she was a wonderful person whom I had simply "lost."

Finally, I told my kids (who are 29, 26, and 23) what had happened to end the marriage. (I had kept the secret of my XWW's affair up until that point.) It was in my daughter's reaction, that I began to re-evaluate whether my ex was who I thought she was.

Specifically, my daughter recounted the story of how she would kiddingly chide my ex, when they (my daughter and XWW) both worked at HIS (AP) small retail store. (That was also nauseating, BTW -- my XWW had ALL my kids work for him at various times! ) My daughter (totally unsuspecting, as were we all) would joke with my XWW, saying stuff like, "Sure... You're just talking business behind that closed door. Right..." or variations of that theme. Harmless, fond, stuff.

But after hearing the truth, my daughter recounted a recent time when she was traveling with XWW and XWW broke into tears at the airport, blubbering that my daughter shouldn't say such things; that she (my XWW) "would never do that to you or your father!"

I realized then that it wasn't just me that was consciously, manipulatively, and maliciously lied to, but my kids, as well. FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME, it occurred to me that my XWW might not be the wonderful person I had perceived her to be. Until then, I had bought into her blame shifting that I had done something to contribute to her dissatisfaction. My daughter, however, had done NOTHING to deserve such treatment. (And, of course, I didn't either.)

I suspect you are going through something similar to what I am--that the person in whom I'd believed for 30 years just isn't the person I thought she was. I loved the person I WANTED her to be; whom I saw through my rose colored glasses. By the time I discovered her 5-year, LTA with my "friend," that person was simply not there. I just hadn't realized it.

My XWW had a lifetime of struggling with toxic shame (from FOO issues), and learned exceptionally well to deal with it by hiding and deceit. Like your wife, she was/is an EXCEPTIONAL liar. And I, like you, was EXCEPTIONALLY trusting.

When she committed "sin," "wrong," "evil" (whatever you want to call it) FOR SO LONG, I think she lost her soul. She lost the ability to judge right and wrong, and justified her behavior by making every single day of our marriage a disaster in her mind. The lying and deception needed to sustain her LTA honed her already exceptional hiding and lying skills.

Sin must be justified by the perpetrator, or their mind implodes. She became so good at lying and deceit, it became who she is.

18 months after D-Day, I now realize that ANY interaction with her--even post divorce--is toxic to me. Given her deceit and lying capabilities, I'm unable to discern her truth. For a trusting person like me, you, and other BS, such skill in lying and deceit is unfathomable.

The bottom line is that the person I loved doesn't exist anymore; and now I'm unsure she ever did. She was who I imagined her to be.

So, I've gone NC, NC, NC, NC, and am slowly but surely recovering. I've decided that I am worthy of mature love; that I will be happy and love again; that I will do whatever is necessary for my healing to get to that place.

I'm beginning to see that all this is a good thing; an exercise I've needed to undertake my entire life. I had to be forced into it by the BS trauma of a double-betrayal, LTA, but I will come out better for it. I'm a stubborn, willful SOB... when I fix my mind on something, I will do it. I bet you will, too.

Thank you for listening. I hope this is helpful in some way. I know it helped me to write it.

Peace, LivingAnew

P.S. Forgive the length of this post... As E.B. White once said in a note to a friend, "Forgive the length of this letter; I would have written you a shorter one, but didn't have the time."

[This message edited by livinganew at 11:22 AM, July 4th (Friday)]

The bottom line is that the person I loved doesn't exist anymore; and now I'm unsure she ever did. She was who I imagined her to be.

What transpired for me over the 4 years following DD was interesting to watch. I didn't go to any newspaper and place any stories about WW's adultery, however, I opened up and told EVERYONE who expressed interest exactly what happened.

The people who knew her for most of her life prior to her marriage also KNEW what kind of person she was, and were not surprised. They had observed her for lots of years, leaving a string of broken relationships.

Her deception abilities were completely "professional", she had lots of practice. And, the con man's greatest "tool" is the desire of the listener to believe what he's "selling".

Living anew-- Thank you SO much! You really helped me see my XWH for who he really is also!

Jb

First of all – SI is all about personal growth IMHO.

Frankly – I don’t post for other people. I post for myself. I get a feeling that sharing and helping others… it helps me.

So the years spent on SI… well… they have made YOU a better person. They have made YOU more capable to personally deal with this crappy situation your wife has chosen to land you in.

OK – So back to your situation. Since you are an experienced poster and have been here for some time then I’m probably going to hit low…

Don’t talk to her about how she’s a bad mother. She is not your mother and it’s not really your job nor role to grade her as a “mother”. You don’t want a competition with the kids over who’s the better parent.

Is having an affair, taking part in false-reconciliation and having a substance-abuse issue conductive to good parenting? No… each and every one of those issues could and would diminish anyone’s abilities to be a good parent. But the fact your wife has been in an affair and the fact that this affair might end your family… IMHO does not entitle you to call her a bad parent. No more than she can claim being in an affair because you were a bad husband.

You know the drill. Focus on YOU. Focus on what you can do to detach. No need for dishing out blame or having long talks about what’s wrong with her. If you are determined to divorce then get that process going ASAP. Find ways to cohabit while that’s necessary but work actively at getting out of this situation.

IF you want to R (and frankly your need to talk to your wife indicates to me that you really aren’t clear…) then prepare your requirements and how they can be enforced.

Just remember: YOU and only YOU can get yourself out of this shithole.

jb,

Brother, my advice is simple. Third strike. She needs to be out. It doesn't matter if she starts to fight for the M now. It really won't imho but I don't believe she will. Quite frankly I think you don't believe she will either. You want her to. You want her to be the person you know she could be yet chooses not to be. That's the problem. She is being who she chooses to be.

Her attitude about the A tells me that three years of AA meetings have just a charade. She hasn't learned one bit of personal responsibility. I've met some recovered alcoholics/addicts and the ones who "get it" don't simply stop using/drinking. They learn to take responsibility for their choices in all aspects of their life. They may still struggle with it from time to time but they know what they should do and it isn't looking at other people and asking "What role do you think you played in my messed up life choices?"

Please file and reclaim your life. I do not make that suggestion lightly. Your head is screaming D because the facts of who your WW is as a person is undeniable. Detach and truly leave her alone to her own life and the damage she continues to wreak.

IMO she didn't really work her recovery. There's a difference between not drinking and sobriety. Had she worked the program, telling you to look for your blame in the cheating would've never crossed her lips.

She would have owned her choices. Taken that whole deep, personal inventory and made amends where possible. That's not just for drinking, that's for all aspects of your life.

She's been a dry drunk.

And yes, she's been a crappy parent. As an ACOA I feel pretty secure in saying that. One parent a cheater, one a drinker. Both lead to bad parenting IME and from what I've observed.

My dad will be getting his 25yr chip soon. He's been the sponsor to numerous men (refuses to sponsor women as a boundary). We discuss the issue and my upbringing in detail. What I've learned is knowing the phrases and making the motions doesn't matter for squat if it doesn't sink down deep.

I would say not just a new IC is in order, but a new hard-ass sponsor.

I need to move forward...as fast as possible.

I know that you know all the advice so I'll spare you. Your WW is all sort of broken and it's having a major impact on you and your family. You know how to minimize the pain by acting quickly. Ripping off the bandaid so to speak.

She probably did exchange one addiction for the other and she's probably still has faulty wiring. She clearly hasn't fixed it if she thinks you are going to be around. Maybe she will once you are gone? Too late for her at that point.

Sending you continued strength and courage.

yop

ETA - go to a hotel and get some sleep if you can.

I need to move forward...as fast as possible.

Yes, you do. At this point, anything other than detaching (seriously detaching) is emotional suicide.

Blameshifting and the 'mememe' attitude that often occur after an original Dday is bad.....but dealing with those things after *new* betrayal causes a LOT more damage.

Take your hand off of the hot stove and get the heck out of the kitchen.......

((((JB))))

It is the return of insomnia that stings the most for me on your behalf right now--I remember having my ability to sleep just stolen away from me by what had happened, and being incapable of getting it back. All those long miserable nights. They really don't understand the impact at all, are too selfish and lacking in empathy to realize what it does to us.

You deserve better.

Some people just don't know how to own their shit.

But you will be okay. Hang in there.

[This message edited by norabird at 10:32 AM, July 4th (Friday)]