SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

And yes, one of the biggest issues WW and I have had over the years is that she is an absolute bully and something of a control-freak.

I'm backing up what sharkman says about seeing a lawyer. I STRONGLY suggest you do that BEFORE doing anything else. Your WW has been manipulating you this whole time to the point that even you can't see her actions clearly show she has been having an affair with her boss much longer than you think and Charliedeltabrav dod a pretty good job laying that out there for you. I also think the OBS knows more about what's going on than you do.

Denial and fear are our biggest obstacles for making the toughest decisions in dealing with infidelity. Defeat those two obstacles by seeing an attorney ASAP to get an idea of what your rights are and how the D process works so it can guide you on how to take action to handle your own situation.

If your WW is as stubborn as you say, she WILL make your life a living hell because in her eyes you will be denying her the deserved happiness she thinks she has in her affair. When you start exposing the affair to the OBS, family and friends you will soon get to witness another facet of her stubborn controlling personality and that is the attitude of absolute entitlement.

I think you need to see an attorney and I think you need to be ready for anything.

OK, now this is left-field stuff and it's definitely worst-case scenario but just think - she's already got the kids out of the house. She says that when she returns from the conference she'll go to grandma's instead of her own home. (Doesn't want to face things with you?) Whether she returns that night or the next day, who knows? But when she does finally contact you it might well be to announce that she wants a seperation and that she and the kids will not return home until you are out of the house.

I hope this isn't the way it's gonna go down but she's played fast and loose with the truth when dealing with you for a long time already so be prepared regardless.

[This message edited by Ironstorm at 9:48 AM, April 21st (Friday)]

WW has threatened separation/divorce time and time again, saying that counseling is pointless because the marriage can only improve if i become more like the way she wants me to be.

So fast forward to yesterday. My wife was about to leave for a few days (and nights) to attend a couple conferences, located back-to-back in the same hotel. Something smelled funny about it, and after picking up a couple clues that she was planning this "work" trip as a getaway with some OM, I confronted her about my suspicion. She denied it, but the nature of her denial only made me more convinced. It's since become obvious that not only was I right to suspect her, but that the OM is someone I know very well: her longtime former boss.

This morning WW confessed that, yes, she has developed strong feelings for OM. She says she only realized them upon leaving for her new job.

WW left this morning to return to the conference. Yes, he's there. Indeed, one of the biggest clues I had was that I dug up the attendee lists for each of the conferences. OM is not even registered for the earlier conference. WW is not even registered for the latter one. Yet they traveled together for the former and planned to return together from the latter.

I pieced together the pertinent facts to get some sort of timeline. How do you know there is a conference? Let me guess... your wife told you? I believe she has been in at the very least an EA for years with her boss. Very doubtful that they haven't had sex yet...for sure at the conference.

You are repeatedly falling into two common mistakes made by betrayed spouses.

1. Tipping your hand. STOP telling her everything you suspect or know. It only allows her to minimize, lie and deny while simultaneously helping her learn how you are figuring out what is going on so she can change her tactics. If possible, hold your tongue for several days and do some of the things recommended to you already (VAR in the car, hire a PI, take advantage of her conference time to see what is actually happening, run text retrieval on her phone, check previous cell phone bills, see if she has an app for hidden communication like WhatsApp or even Facebook Messenger, etc.). While you will need to tell the other betrayed spouse, you will want to weigh the timing carefully to not further tip off your wife and the other man just before you get the solid evidence you are looking for.

2. Doing the "Pick Me!" dance. You've been begging her for attention or some focus on the marriage, but then standing by without having her face any consequences while she disrespects and abuses you. Please get a copy of "No More Mr. Nice Guy" to help you see how this pattern works and why her respect for you is spiraling downward.

If you change those two things, you are going to be in a MUCH better position. However, based on what you've written, your wife has significant issues with control, stubbornness and selfishness. On top of that, it seems that the other man is happy to keep his wife/family while being able to have "fun" with your eager-to-divorce wife with no commitment beyond that. It sets her in a position where all she has to hold onto is the kids and assets within your marriage, so you should be prepared for her to try to go on the offensive once she sees her power slipping. See an attorney, learn your rights and, whatever happens, don't be drawn in to a position where you lose your temper and/or make any kind of physical contact with her (i.e. giving grounds for her to make a false domestic violence charge).

Horrible story;

1) Yes, this affair has been going on for 4 years and is ongoing

2) Your WW is a bully and a cheat (Based on what you described) and she began this behavior immediately after bestowing upon you a young family that needs a loyal, loving, caring family.

3) You better get some legal advice, combined with the VAR.

4) Crushed, Jduff, WK are among the most recent posters here. They are some of the best. Is it possible that you can get a PI up to that conference if you want the evidence you seek ?

5) Yes, the attendee list is clearly a huge red flag.

6) You need to take control. You take control by assuming the worst and stop playing the 'pick me' dance.

7) When she comes home, continue to go James Bond on her. When you get the further evidence, then contact the Other man's wife. Blow up their world while having her monitored. The phones will blow up and he may dump her but that's not the purpose. The purpose will be to gain further evidence.

8) Upon confrontation, tell her no more contact and she is to give you all of her electronic devices. if she refuses, file for divorce. If she agrees, you better be prepared to go to the mat.

You can't do anything but either live in infidelity like you have for the last 4 years or be willing to risk your marriage. I am not sure if I would want to save a marriage with a bully and a cheat.

I would also get some individual counseling. Living with a 'suspected' cheat for 4 years causes damage and you have been conditioned to trust or rugsweep. The next task ahead of you will be very tough. You need all the strength you can have

Voice activated recorder and private investigator.

The biggest issue in your marriage is that you put up with it. In what you describe, she has not proven to love you. She openly told you she has feelings for him and has been for at least since she left her job, yet hides it from you.

What is your deal breaker? The point where you say, "Enough! No more! This is unacceptable to me in my marriage! I can't stop you from seeing other man, but I can control whether I decide to stay in this marriage or not!"?? And then if she doesn't meet what is acceptable in a marriage, you start to leave the marriage? When do you reach that point?

They have been having sex for a long time. Too many times to count. This cheating stuff is very predictable.

Voice activated recorder. Private investigator. If you want the truth. I think maybe even DNA on your child.

After you catch her having sex, then you ask her to take a polygraph. Then you see how long.

This is not complicated.

Digifuwill,

As far as VARs go, this advice comes from other posts here:

Sony ICD-PX333 VAR, some Lithium AAA batteries, and an 8GB micro SD card. Learn how to use it and carry it on you at all times.

Go to Walmart find the aisle where they sell velcro. they have different strengths of Velcro's get the strong level you don't want it to come loose and fall out so your wife can find it. Then place it underneath her seat in her car make sure it's secure. Oh yeah buy energizer AAA lithium batteries. That is definitely a must the lithium batteries, if you use alkaline batteries the recorder won't last as long. You have to set it up to voice activate. I don't think that the default setting so you have to going to settings. Play with it for a while make sure you get it to work.

If you can get a few of them, it might be an idea to have a couple at home, in places where you tend to have your significant discussions with your wife, to catch any confessions like the one she made before heading off to the conference, or any temper tantrums.

I agree about the private eye idea; it costs, but you can get a lot of independent evidence that way.

If you discover they meet regularly at lunchtime at a certain time or place, you can always show up unexpectedly and join them. I imagine their face would be quite a picture!

You do need to talk to a lawyer too; things are getting out of hand your WW's relationship with the OM, and you need to know where you stand if it did come to divorce. Of course, if the OM's wife decides to divorce him, chances are she'll take him to the cleaners. He will be very aware of that, and very few cheating husbands seem willing to lose everything just to be with their sidepiece, whatever lies they may have told the woman in question.

When the affair does get exposed, the OM is likely to throw your WW "under a bus", as the phrase in this forum goes. You may have a stormy time of it, but it has to be better than what you have been going through for the past few years.

Dear digifuwill,

Why in the world do you continue to put up with this? Have you no self-respect?

When your WW first flew off the handle four years ago over the Disney outing and said she wanted a D, you should have nipped the problem in the bud by saying "fine" and filing for D. That would likely have jolted her back to reality and taught her that she could not control you. Instead, you have repeatedly begged her to come back to you and have knowingly shared her with another man for so long, that she no longer has any respect for you. Her focusing on your supposed faults and all of her other devices are merely ways to keep on under control, and are working just fine for her.

Your wanting to know the details of her infidelity is understandable but, frankly, all you are doing is delaying the inevitable. Your WW is long gone emotionally and this has gone on for so long that she is never coming back.

Stop your begging and cut your losses. Find the best lawyer you can afford and file for D. Employ the 180, detach from her and start to rebuild your life. Concentrate on taking care of yourself and your kids. If you seriously question one of your children's paternity, have it tested.

I know you won't follow this advice right now. You are obviously too emotionally dependent on her to do so. My hope, however, is that it will plant a seed in your mind so that, when you finally get sick and tired of being treated like part of the furniture (and not an especially valued piece of furniture at that), you will begin to formulate an escape plan.

In the meantime, and while you spin your wheels spying on her and trying to cajole her back, please read "No More Mister Nice Guy!" by Dr. Robert Glover (you can download it for free here: https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf). It will help you understand why you have put up with this for so long and what you can do to become the kind of man that doesn't allow his WW to control him.

Good luck to you.

For those of you asking "why?" the answer is that everything I do or seek to do is for the kids. I want to continue raising them in our house, without her. We live in a no-fault state. The only other family member in the area is my mother in law who is certifiable - just bonkers crazy to anyone who has gotten to know her (except for my kids who just don't know anything else) - but has watched the kids daily since nearly the day they were born. I've long wanted to put an end to that, but how? I love my job but I work an hour away from home (so does my wife).

I don't want to R. I just don't want my kids to be hurt or to lose the amount of time I spend with them. So when I say that I'm trying to learn more about what's what, it's exclusively so I can strengthen my custody case, since there are so many cards stacked against me.

Also the reason I tipped my hand is because the MC forced me to. It was completely against my strategy. I thought going to an MC would be the step that forced everything out. I tried to dodge showing any of my hand but the MC saw it as sort of a tit for tat. She wasn't going to push WW hard to come clean until I demonstrated that I wasn't just paranoid and crazy. Then when I did that WW nevertheless continued to deny everything. The MC wasn't fooled. She even let out a giggle about how ridiculous WW's denials were. She made it clear that WW needed to be honest about what happened even if the marriage was over, for purposes of working out an amicable separation. But WW is a piece of work. She literally ran out the clock. Session went overtime and still nothing. The next session isn't for weeks due to WW's schedule limitations from her new job. WW has homework: come clean between now and then. I have no faith that she's going to come through on that though.

Anyway some outside SI have advised me that the person who first meets with a divorce lawyer gets a knock against them in the custody battle. I want to be prepared first but I don't want another card stacked against me. Anyone know if there's truth to that advice?

You want to be the first to get to a lawyer. It gives you guidance and time to prepare.

some outside SI have advised me that the person who first meets with a divorce lawyer gets a knock against them in the custody battle. I want to be prepared first but I don't want another card stacked against me. Anyone know if there's truth to that advice?

I've been reading these websites for many years and have never heard such a thing. Nor does it make any sense. How is the court supposed to know who first spoke with an attorney? In fact, the legal system is designed to encourage people to consult with lawyers (more money for the lawyers).

[This message edited by Alchemy at 3:02 PM, April 21st (Friday)]

Digi,

For those of you asking "why?" the answer is that everything I do or seek to do is for the kids. I want to continue raising them in our house, without her. We live in a no-fault state...I don't want to R. I just don't want my kids to be hurt or to lose the amount of time I spend with them. So when I say that I'm trying to learn more about what's what, it's exclusively so I can strengthen my custody case, since there are so many cards stacked against me.

Given what you say above, you really need to talk to a lawyer about the best way forward, because what you want can only happen as a result of decisions made in court. A lawyer can advise you of how to build the best possible custody case, and the kinds of evidence that a court would consider.

A lawyer may also be able to say whether it would be better for you to divorce her, or for her to divorce you. It is a shame that her affair is not an 'exit' affair, because if it was, you could simply lawyer up, watch and wait for her to file, and then present yourself as a person who wanted to hold the marriage together for the kids, and your wife as the person knowingly breaking up the family home. Maybe I'm being too simplistic in that; an expert in the laws of your state would know better.

Childcare is definitely an aspect you need to investigate if you would like the majority of custody to go your way. I am sure many other people have been in the same position as you before, and there must be solutions to it. Maybe you could start a new thread in the Divorce section of this forum, asking for advice on childcare options and what others have done. This thread can provide support with the evidence-uncovering part of what you need, and the other thread can harvest information about childcare and custody from people who have gone through the whole process before.

Digifuwill - I'm not a matrimonial lawyer but I am a lawyer and that outside advice makes no sense to me. I can't imagine the context it could possibly come up "who sought legal advice first"? And as a public policy matter, I can't imagine there being any sort of rule that would discourage someone from seeking legal advice i.e. if you seek legal advice then you will suffer in determining custody, or anything else for that matter.

I think that has got to be absolutely wrong. I think the advice you're getting here to seek legal advice to learn your rights and to protect yourself and your children is spot on.

I hope that helps.

For those of you asking "why?" the answer is that everything I do or seek to do is for the kids. I want to continue raising them in our house, without her. We live in a no-fault state. The only other family member in the area is my mother in law who is certifiable - just bonkers crazy to anyone who has gotten to know her (except for my kids who just don't know anything else) - but has watched the kids daily since nearly the day they were born. I've long wanted to put an end to that, but how? I love my job but I work an hour away from home (so does my wife).

I don't want to R. I just don't want my kids to be hurt or to lose the amount of time I spend with them. So when I say that I'm trying to learn more about what's what, it's exclusively so I can strengthen my custody case, since there are so many cards stacked against me.

If you live in a NF state and "don't want to R," then just file for D, as there is no benefit to you in the D process to being able to prove her infidelity.

As for wanting to raise your kids in your house, that probably won't happen because, unless she is an unfit mother, you and she will likely share physical custody.

Speaking of custody, there are no more cards stacked against you than against your WW in most U.S. jurisdictions. The courts routinely award joint custody unless one of the parents is unfit.

What did her boyfriend's wife say?

I just don't want my kids to be hurt or to lose the amount of time I spend with them.

You need to ask your attorney at what age can your kids ask the court to modify the custody agreement. For example in the state of Texas that age is 12 yrs old where the judge will give great weight to the child's opinion on their preferred primary residence. Let's say your worst case scenario will be 50/50 joint custody with the possibility that when you youngest reaches 12 then both your kids can ask to stay with dad more. If you sit on your ass and rug sweep this, let your bully WW control and manipulate the situation and you not take legal advisement and actions to protect you and your kids then your worst case scenario is a false DV charge, getting kicked out of your own home with an RO where you don't get to see your kids at all for an undetermined amount of time.

Look, the process of divorce take time anyway. Between the time of filing and the ink drying on the finalized decree, your WW just might see the error in her ways and pull her entitled head out of her entitled ass to start making things right with you. But, unless you actually take action to protect yourself and your kids then what motivation does she have to fix anything? Until she completely ends her affair those MC sessions are a huge waste of time and money. You've been her doormat too long for her to think otherwise.

Thanks for the good advice. I'll lawyer up asap.

I told the BW (she was on the phone with OM when I knocked and he was right next to WW at the time so I ended up just ignoring WW's frantic calls while I shared my bad news with BW in her driveway). She didn't have a clue but she appreciated that I had come over. No idea what the fallout will be there but I feel really free and happy at the moment. I went and picked up my kids and have just been playing with them at home and generally having a good time. WW is on the way home (way earlier than she planned) but I'm not nervous or angry or anything. Her sister and mom both called me and let me know that they, like me, just want to make sure things go smooth for the kids and that they know that that means keeping my relationship with the kids as unchanged as possible. I had provided my SIL a lot of emotional and some financial support over the past year to help her through an incredibly difficult personal crisis so her willingness to call me out of the blue to pledge her support to all of us (including me) was earned but very much appreciated and, I think, very legitimate.

Basically, for now at least I feel good and pretty liberated. If my MIL is able to turn the corner and accept that there was a PA, then I'll really really be gold. If not, well, I'll take things as they come (with the help of a lawyer, and some good friends and family members who I'm looking forward to seeing a lot more of). Thanks everybody. I haven't followed your advice as well as i would have liked, but I'm glad I found you. I know I did a very good thing today, something that I would not have done if not for you, and that I would have regretted all my life had I not done it.

Sharkman

What did her boyfriend's wife say?

^This^

Great fucking job, my man. It's a shitty situation but feeling empowered and in control beats the shit out of shivering in the corner.

You've got this.