SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I think you are setting yourself up to fail if she doesn't get some counseling on why she allowed her self to do this (twice now). If you want to R that is your choice, but I wouldn't let her know that until you see demonstrable changes in her behavior for a long period of time (6-12 months) and a real effort to fix what is broken in her with a professinal.

Also, after reading many WW stories on this site, and having repeatedly seen how the truth trickles out, I think she is full of shit about no intercourse. Like you said though, in the grand scheme of things what she freely admits to is bad enough.

IMO The 4 biggest steps to take next would be:

1) has she written no contact letter to AP? Do they still work together? If so, that has to end now. NC is required. If she hears from him she does not respond and tells you.

2) she starts IC to figure out why she could so easily go outside her vows. You could use IC to in order to get thru the pain.

3) full confession with timeline to you. Every detail. What where when. If something comes out later state that D will be a certainty.

4) she must agree to a poly. You'll probably get confessions before she is even hooked up to it. Number 1 question: did you have intercourse.

That's just the start of many steps to R.

Best wishes

it doesnt really matter if they went at it like bunnies 1000 times or if they 'only' had oral sex 20 times, its cheating, its betrayal, its lies, and it hurts.

what does matter is that she tells you the truth. without that truth you have zero basis to reconcile. the full expression is actually "truth and reconcilliation".

i do want to point out your ww isnt the bad liar you think she is. 4 urs she keot a doozy of a secret. shed meet up, blow him, and come home. and you didnt have a clue. youd ask how her day was, have small talk, and never sensed shed been intimate with him. thats a pretty damn good liar not a bad one. and yet shes got you believing now that shes a terrible liar. THAT is a huge red flag.

the only thing we do know is that it was at least 4 yrs. that they had 'at least' oral sex. the rest is unknown. maybe longer and maybe more. because the only two people who know the full truth are both liars and both are quite good at it.

what active steps are you taking to ensure the affair is really over and/or doesnt restart? they met at lunch from work. hard to monitor that. how do you know shes not going round now and what will stop her from doing so in a week or a month? 4 yrs is a long affair and its not easy to be sure its really over/wont restart - especially if shes got you convinced you are able to spot her lies.

have you considered a polygraph? the main advantage is that you can be reasonably sure you have the full truth. beware the tear filled confession to a little more in the parking lot and the plea that since you 'now' have it all to please cancel it so we can go home and put this behind us speech.

what consequences has she faced?

I think the sex - the amount and the kind - often does matter to a BH early on after d-day. Now, over time it doesn't matter all that much because the "weight" of a blowjob vs. anal really wanes over time. They both become the same - ugly, disgusting, horrifying to imagine & view in his mind. But at the beginning it seems BH's flounder with all aspects of the sex. I'm convinced it's because they are in emotional shock and refuse to accept the impact this is going to have on their life. They want their old life back...they want things to get back to normal so they knit-pick things like "only oral" in order to rationalize why they didn't just pack a bag and walk out the door on d-day.

OP: the sex matters to you right now - big time. Maybe it will be the thing that prevents you from reconciling or maybe to you it's "just sex". I guess you'll find out over the next few weeks/months. But one thing that pretty much everyone on here is telling you is that she's lying about the sex. Are we all wrong? Collectively, we have read hundreds and hundreds of stories and most of them are nearly identical to yours. If any facts are in doubt, if she believes that you have no hard evidence regarding the sex, she will lie, lie, and lie some more.

Just to get the details out of the way; according to her and OM:

... it wasnt more than a friendly relationship with a sexual undertone. They rarely met up privately and they never met up to do "hook-ups".

They had about 20 sexual encounters were about 4/5 of them were oralsex (not to completion). All random encounters happened at work/office when everyone was out to lunch. She did admit they were close to having intercourse but they eventually backed out. They were afraid to cross that line and she was afraid of getting pregnant (i had a vasectomy years ago).

They met up once for jogging in a nearby forrest and while jogging they had a quick oral-session on eachother. This happened only once according to her

This is complete bullshit. Your head is in the clouds. You are very naive. Your wife is volunteering details about the sex now IN ORDER TO KEEP YOU FROM DIGGING ANY FURTHER. They all do it. You will find that what I and others are telling you is true. You will find that she and her AP got their stories straight in case they got caught. I mean, how long would it take for them to agree that their story is:

"Ok - if we ever get caught our story is that it was only making out & some oral and only at work. We met up maybe 15 to 20 times. Oh yeah - and we didn't orgasm."

Does it prove anything at all that they are saying, basically, the same thing? No because, really, is their story too complicated for them to remember?

I understand that you want to believe this with all of your heart. You are looking for ANYTHING that will mitigate this ugly truth. But if the truth matters to you than keep digging on your own and pushing her for the full truth.

[This message edited by anoka at 5:48 PM, June 23rd (Friday)]

Sorry you found us :(. Anoka hit it perfectly. I'm a BH and he is so right on with the sex part. I'm at nearly 2 years and the sex part really hit me 6 months to present day. I agree with everyone, she is full of shit. My WW was too, took me a year of interrogation and PI work for my WW to finally realize "he's not accepting my story, he won't let it go, I have to tell him everything". Did I get everything, who knows, only her and POSOM know the truth. Polygraph should do the trick.

So its been about a month. Luckily the kids have been away for weeks now so we could figure out on how to move forward. Im not angry, depressed anymore and im thinking less and less of what happended. But I am still getting a few glimpses a day of what happened. I am still thinking of what went down on D-day. I guess D-day really affected and has probably altered me in some way. Im currently all out of questions to ask her so i kind of stopped digging for more details of the affair. Anyway I dont really care of what happened anymore. It was as bad as could be in my mind. To be honest I feel kind of detached from the situation. Not sure if im having the right response or feeling. But when i read other posts here about affairs, the betrayed spouse often seems to have it way worse than im currently feeling. Maybee im the weird one?.. But everyones different i guess. :)

She is still doing everything to make me happy. It obvious to me she feels real bad of what she has done and she tells me 100-times that she cant believe what she did and how she was able to hurt me. I kind of believe her. We have been talking alot since D-day of this and im not feeling shes holding anything back.

Regarding sex, I have discovered from her and new sexuall side of her in wich she was to afraid to tell me before. She likes light BDSM with domination were i am the dominant. Its alright i guess, its new and good fun. She gradually got interested after seeing a few clips on a pornsite. To bad she thought i would judge her. I have always been the most open one when it comes to sex. So yeah.. we`re having sex again.

As to other activities we try to keep active with hiking, kayaking, bicycling, dating and setting up romantic evenings together. We have done this almost every every day last 3 weeks. Next week we are meeting up with the kids again. I cant wait.

The kids were feeling that something was wrong with us after D-day. They got very clingy and did everything to get attention. They are 7 and 8 and i got kind of worried. School was out since right after D-day and i was kind feeling bad for letting them staying at my wife parents house(in another country) while we worked and trying to figure things out.

But we are starting our vacation next week together again. Hopefully i will be able to enjoy myself. :)

[This message edited by justanotherguy80 at 8:40 AM, July 5th (Wednesday)]

Thanks for the update.

I think you said they no longer work together right? If so that is good.

But how do you know they are no longer meeting up or even just chatting or sexting? Do you monitor or did u decide just to take it on blind faith.

Have you done all of these things to ensure a relapse doesn't occur? I see you have done some. Just want to make sure you are not rug seeeping and headed to DDay2

You may feel you are doing them all and that's great. It's just good to make sure you are doing all you can to save the M or move toward happiness thru D.

Good luck.

Examples of what to put in a plan to becoming safe.

1) a letter of NC to the OM that you see and approve and watch her send.

2) real NC. Meaning she quits her job so she can never see him or run into him again. Real ghosting. Blocking him from everything. If He tries to contact her she does not respond and she tells you. If he persists your lawyer can send him a cease and desist.

3) she writes out a full timeline of the A. Full details. And you review it with her.

4) she writes you a letter of apology telling you why she thinks she did what she did and what it would mean to her to have you stay and work on the marriage.

5) she agree to a polygraph. You may or may not have her do it, but don't tell her that. If she really wants R she will agree

6) you both do IC. Her to figure out why she was willing to go beyond her vows. You so you can work thru the pain. You should do this whether you head for D or R.

7) at a later point you might start MC to work on what was missing from the M. But only after you both work on yourselves first.

8) Expose. The affair needs to be exposed to both your families and close friends. They need to be able to help you make it thru this R. Doing it alone with just the both of u and no one else knowing is doomed for failure. If she is truly remorseful you will both go to them together and she will admit what's she has done and what she is doing to make herself a safe partner for you. If she is not willing to do this, then probably just end it here and move forward with D.

9) contact the OBS. You do it. She should help you. If she is truly remorseful she will want to do that for you. You should want to do it because it's the right thing to do for the OBS. If she won't tell her then tell her I can only assume you are protecting him because you are still in the A with him and you'll be getting the D papers this week.

10) look at implementing a postnup. Others here can give you more details on how this works.

11) she provides open access to all her technology from now on. On demand. No time to delete stuff. If not then she's obviously more interested in having secrets than your M.

12) No more going out without disclosing where she is. If "going out with the girls" has been an excuse to meet with AP in the past, then that ends

13) Does all required reading. "Not just friends" and "how to help your spouse..." etc.

14) find a friend or family member for you to confide in. You shouldn't be going thru this alone.

15) STD testing for u both. Visual proof of the results is required.

Again friend, you can only decide how to proceed out of infidelity. But if you use the power of the brain trust here you will see that the most successful BS's find happiness sooner by acting from a stance of strength not weakness .

It may be thru R (which will take years of hard work but may be worth it to you) or D, but in the end you will be happier and feel better about standing up for yourself and your family.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 10:13 AM, July 5th (Wednesday)]

There is alot of stuff that i havent written about yet here.

Just to get the details out of the way; according to her and OM:

According to her it wasnt more than a friendly relationship with a sexual undertone. They rarely met up privately and they never met up to do "hook-ups".

They had about 20 sexual encounters were about 4/5 of them were oralsex (not to completion).

Damn, dude, you're drinking the Kool-Aid by the gallon.

What you're going through is Hysterical Bonding. Very normal, but believe me, those angry/sad/scared, etc., feelings are going to come back, friend. You cannot sweep this under the rug, even if she's moving heaven and earth now. She needs help - to find out why she did this to begin with (because you know it is not your fault). Once the "hysteria" euphoria wears off, I fear she'll be back to the OM in some way, shape or form if she does not get help to fix what is broken in her. Or it will be another OM when she gets "bored"...as she told you in so many words as the reason she strayed to begin with.

There is no way (in my humble opinion) that she's "all done" with a man with whom she had an A for four years.

And please, please...both of you need to get STD testing.

Not trying to be negative, and of course, the mantra here at SI is "take what you need and leave the rest" - but it's only because my gut says that this debacle is not over.

Congratulations! You made it through this mess really fast and, with a little luck, soon you will never think about it again.

You may be absolutely right. I might not get the truth ever. BUT!.. Against me she is a terrible liar. A really bad one. Shes tried lies a few times and failed every single time. She might have been good at concealing but with snapchat and the physical stuff just happping at work this would not require alot of effort to hide.

Im not navieve with my head in the clouds on this one. I really dont think so..

Says the guy whose wife has been cheating on him for four years.

Regarding sex, I have discovered from her and new sexuall side of her in wich she was to afraid to tell me before. She likes light BDSM with domination were i am the dominant. Its alright i guess, its new and good fun. She gradually got interested after seeing a few clips on a pornsite. To bad she thought i would judge her. I have always been the most open one when it comes to sex. So yeah.. we`re having sex again.

Really? She cheated on you, comes up with new sex desires, and you think she learned it from porn clips?

Glad to hear that you're doing better. Your cheater got off easy with you. Hopefully she'll keep herself together.

Just a couple notes so you're not to taken aback if/when you find out. I doubt that she learned the sexual things only from watching videos. It's more likely that she learned them from the OM. Also "(not to completion)" is a common lie that cheaters tell. You'll see it often when reading other people's stories.

I do honestly hope that you've got a unicorn that can actually keep her new vows to you.

@Nuckingfuts, thank you for saying the obvious

OP, I'm sorry you had to find us.

I feel you are being hoodwinked. I would bet this month's mortgage payemnt that there is soooo much more that you don't know.

What you are doing is rugsweeping. You are trying to push things under the carpet and pretend it didn't happen. What is your wife doing to figure out why she did this in the first place?

And I am sorry, but saying they were "afraid" to cross the line to full on sex is 100% BS.

If you feel so sure she is being truthful with you, then I suggest you book a polygraph test for her so she can prove it to you. If she is telling the truth she will pass with flying colors right?

People who have nothing to hide, hide nothing.

Anyway I dont really care of what happened anymore. It was as bad as could be in my mind. To be honest I feel kind of detached from the situation. Not sure if im having the right response or feeling.

To be honest, there is no 'right' feeling. Some people want to get to the bottom of things, others would rather just move on. You have to find a solution that works for you, because you are the person who is going to spend your future with your wife, and you want that future to be as happy as possible.

It could be argued that it dropping everything and moving on is ideal. It is certainly the easiest option, in the short-term. It could also be argued that if you had your wife sit multiple polygraph tests, and a lot more details were revealed, the fact that you know about them would not undo a single one of them, so why try to find out anyway?

The reason people here advise against buying into half-truths and not getting to the bottom of problems is not because knowing everything can undo anything that has happened, but because knowing how and why your wife was able to cheat, and 'fixing' that, can make her a safer life-partner for the future, and through that, make your marriage stronger and less likely to be hit by her infidelity again.

You say that she is a bad liar, but a fantastic concealer. You need to think about, because what you are saying is that she is perfectly happy to cheat on you until you catch her, but she folds under questioning. That is different to being an honest person that has boundaries that will prevent her from cheating again. The reason people here have suggested she gets counselling is to try and change her, so that instead of being fine with cheating as long as she can hide it from, she establishes new boundaries and values that mean she will stop herself from cheating again, rather than you having to keep catching her and questioning her.

If you have read a lot of threads here, you would see that the things your wife is telling you about her activities is textbook minimising. Fully grown adults who embark on extra-marital sexual affairs are not shy of 'completion', nor are they likely to be utterly guilt-free when they get into bed together, but then become so guilt-stricken that they cannot bring themselves to have sex. If they felt any guilt or self-consciousness about what they were doing, they would not have been together in the first place, would they? Completion is the whole point of getting together sexually, and once two adults get rolling, how easy is it to stop short of the finish line? Could you do it?

Sorry if any of that is harsh. I don't want to rain on your parade, but the whole point about getting a full and honest disclosure is that it helps both parties move on from the same place. It provides a sound foundation for trying to save the marriage. It is easier and less distressing to say, "I don't want to hear anything more, let's just move on", but what does that approach actually fix? Nothing at all. It is like building your house on sand.

It may well be possible to salvage the marriage, but that can only be done by uncovering the mechanism in your wife's personality that allowed her to cheat more than once, and for long periods of time. Once you drag the components that enable her to cheat into the sunlight, there is a real possibility that they can be fixed and neutralised for good. And that would be good for both of you, wouldn't it?

I hope that you do enjoy the upcoming vacation, and seeing the kids again. That's great. By all means enjoy your time together, but please do follow the advice that people are giving you here. It is being given not to try and damage your marriage, but to disinfect the infidelity, and to help your wife fix the mechanism that enables her cheating. If that hasn't been fixed, she can do it again.

Point blank: you are rug sweeping.

Without *absolute* honesty you will have nothing to reform a bedrock of trust. Right now you're distracted with kids, new sex things, etc. But unless trust comes back, your marriage will not.

You're not even 100% sure that you're still not being cheated on to be absolutely frank with you.

She did admit they were close to having intercourse but they eventually backed out. They were afraid to cross that line

I am so sick of reading this sentence. There must be a website for cheaters where they tell them what lies to rehearse. This is just a variation on the one I got:

"We never had sex. We just kissed once but it was awkward."

It's giving just a little bit of the truth so you think you have everything and stop asking questions. Just enough to quell the questions but not enough that you would ask for a divorce. It's a cover your ass answer.

For six months, my husband and his second AP told identical stories to me and her husband. If my husband hadn't broken after an email I sent him describing all the ways his story didn't line up and how it was torturing me, he never would have told the truth and neither would she. They began rehearsing their lines the very first night. When her husband caught her, they met one more time to make sure the rehearsed stories wouldn't break down.

Here's the thing, you've been betrayed. Whether they had sex every time or it was just oral sex doesn't really change the circumstances. It was a betrayal either way. The reason it matters is 1)The possibility of STD is higher with intercourse 2)If she is still lying, she has rated covering her ass as more important than being honest and authentic with her husband. Continued lying indicates regret rather than remorse.

Now, on to why the truth matters for you:

As long as her story doesn't add up with what you know of her as a person and what you know of human beings in general, your gut is going to gnaw at you and gnaw at you. You might be able to tell yourself it doesn't matter but it will creep up over and over when you're not expecting it. The truth matters for your peace of mind. Deep down, you know that you would not stay in a four year relationship with someone for the occasional grope at the office and oral sex once in a while.

You've described yoursself as not caring and feeling detached. It sounds like the plain of lethal flatness many BS describe. I believe there is an article about it in the healing library (the yellow box to your left). It sounds a lot like rather than continue to dig and question, you have decided it's easier to just give up. If that's the case, it will only work for so long. As long as what you have been told doesn't align with logic, this is going to keep rearing it's ugly head. Your heart wants to believe but your brain keeps questioning. The truth matters because it finally allows you to have some peace from the disparity between your brain and your heart.

I'm sorry you're here.

No Soliciting

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:09 AM, July 6th (Thursday)]

They had about 20 sexual encounters were about 4/5 of them were oralsex (not to completion).

Please, please, please. This is not true.

Really, think about it. You are a guy. There is a woman you like that is willing to give you head 20 times; but she will stop before you are done? How does she know? You tell her to stop when you are almost there? And over that period you never get to have full sex? The only men capable of that are gay, and they wouldn't fondle your wife to start with.

You know, the "cheater's handbook" has an appendix, with the conversion scales. Here are a few:

"We only kissed twice with clothes on" => "we had sex every week"

"We had sex once but we stopped immediately because we felt guilty" => "we had sex several times a week and we went on vacation together"

"We had sex twice" => "we did it very often, we tried every possible place and position, and we did all those things I told you I would never do".

Your wife sounds around this last one. Sorry to be blunt, but please try to read your posts as if they were written by someone else, and you'll see. And please read other threads, inform yourself, and you'll see the pattern.

4 years co worker affair = sex did happen

What does it matter, oral, sex, anal??? Nothing what matters is that she is still lying about what happend and in a sense with you drinking the kool aid she is serving she thinks it was a close call and is now doing everything to distract, deflect, and sweep under the rug. All the while never addressing the deep character flaw that resides inside her own self. Never fixing the self worth, self image that is damaged, leaving open the doors for further affairs, breaking of NC, or just small little lies about money, kids, anything.

If this is how you want to move on and live your life that is completely your choice. However please know there are many many here that are trying to help you save you, your wife, your kids life, and your marriage by offering advice and observations. Head the words. Think.

[This message edited by sneaker at 6:14 PM, July 6th (Thursday)]