SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Yes. I’ve been told and know that there is a cultural...idea??? (Not the word I’m looking for) that he cheated because I must not sexually fulfill him. Hell, that was one of his excuses. I had a woman tell me to up the bjs and buy more toys or he would cheat again. Yep. She used to be a friend.

above

People give bad advice because that is all they

know.

Yes. I’ve been told and know that there is a cultural...idea??? (Not the word I’m looking for) that he cheated because I must not sexually fulfill him. Hell, that was one of his excuses. I had a woman tell me to up the bjs and buy more toys or he would cheat again. Yep. She used to be a friend.

Okay, so take that feeling and assume it came from inside and it whispers you shouldn't call yourself a woman and then apply that feeling to literally everything you are and do and that's close to what emasculation feels like.

Which is different than the feeling of not being good enough. And different than feeling like you failed as a husband or father. And is different than the complete loss of pride. And different than feeling worthless.

So my sexuality is not linked to my feeling like a woman? NTV, I’m not arguing with you. It is inside of me, yes.

He chose porn sex with her. Dude. I seriously had some conversations inside. Furious used to have to fight with me in PMs. I had to ask guys pointedly about sex to try to understand (thank God for SI).

ETA: my tone is not snippy. I was simply stating that my question was a question and not a shitty tone meant to argue.

[This message edited by demolishedinside at 9:12 AM, July 22nd (Sunday)]

So my sexuality is not linked to my feeling like a woman?

How has this impacted your identity as a woman?

I would question the veracity of pain comparison. I don't think it is possible. Men feel emasculated after betrayal and women feel inadequate and lacking attraction. It is demoralizing for both men and women to be betrayed.

There may be a specialness to the emasculation just as there is a specialness for a woman not aligning with the image of photoshopped magazine covers that we imagine to be the AP.

I wouldn't want to be a betrayed man or woman - each have their own sense of dread. I can imagine that for a man where emotions are so tied to virility that betrayal is really tough. For women, it is no easier to feel passionate with our WS's but certainly our performance is not as tied to it.

I'm sorry for all of the betrayed spouses out there and I'm giving all of us (((hugs))).

Sadism.

it came from inside and it whispers you shouldn't call yourself a woman and then apply that feeling to literally everything you are and do and that's close to what emasculation feels like.

Yep, that is exactly what effemulation feels like, ntv.

Honestly, you don't think some women have those whispers? They start to question everything they thought they were as a women and to question their value as a woman. One of the worst things a woman starts to question herself about is being a mother because, generally, I find that a lot of BW's become somewhat neglectful mother's (raising my hand) as they are drowning in their anguish of betrayal.

I really don't understand how some men may feel that the emasculation part of this is worse for them than the effemulation that women feel. I do feel that some men have a hard time letting their anger go and coming to a place of acceptance but I hardly think that is a matter of just their feelings of emasculation and more of who they are as a person and how they handle hurt, pain and anger. jmo

I feel it maybe just as hard for some BW's to regain respect for their WH's as it is for some BH's to regain respect for their WW. Maybe we don't need a thread for it because we don't dwell on it as much? Meaning, maybe it doesn't concern us as much?

I was never worried about regaining respect for my FWH. I didn't respect him at all after d-day. Told him that in a MC session and the MC asked how he felt about that. He said it made him feel sad but it was understandable. I didn't worry about regaining respect for him. I figured I would either regain respect or not. I wasn't going to turn myself inside out trying to give him something that he caused me to lose.

Okay, so take that feeling and assume it came from inside and it whispers you shouldn't call yourself a woman and then apply that feeling to literally everything you are and do and that's close to what emasculation feels like.

Agree with Rasputina (my latest SI girl crush, man can she express herself).

It IS inside. But outer culture has a huge amount to do with WHY it's inside. How many articles are there about "keeping your man" vs "keeping your woman". It's not just a person or two telling us we weren't woman enough to keep him home, it's the whole fucking world. Which is WHY SI is such a lifesaver. It doesn't allow for that nonsense to be propagated. I have never found one article saying it's the man's fault if she cheats. And I've looked. Her FRIENDS might say that, but not the world at large.

Many of the many overwhelming feelings from my journal after D-Day.

No one is interested in me sexually. No point in divorce. Not like anyone else wants me. I gave this H all the sex and head he wanted...not enough. No way at 45 was I going to be able to compete with the "ideal woman".

He makes all the money and I'm stuck with him financially (Feeling trapped is the thing that made me consider suicide. I have a goddamn MBA but I stayed home because HE wanted me home with the kids....then said I was boring because I stayed home. My hire ability definitely went way down in those years.)

The kids begged me not to divorce him (15 and 12) and that was it's own form of torture, although I don't blame them at all. They were kids. I'm a terrible mother.

I am useless beyond my ability to cook and clean.

I apparently (according to him and I believed it for a while) wasn't interesting because I stayed home. For a while I thought no one in the whole world wanted to discuss anything at all with me. My opinions, my beliefs, my experiences were all worthless.

I'm not sure what you think women experience...but I can assure you, it's about every part of our identity.

Love this thread.

What Rasputina was saying about a cultural expectation for women to expect and accept a certain amount of mistreatment, and to be sooo thankful if we're with someone who is exceptional (and to be even MORE thankful if he doesn't leave us for someone else) - all of this teaches us that we aren't good enough for anyone. That we have to work even harder, that we have to emotionally manage ourselves and be a support to our men AND to know how this all works without his help in the matter - all these expectations about how we are to be supporters in our men's lives, and yet it will never be enough. As women, we will never be enough, because there are women everywhere who could fill our shoes for him.

I see emasculation as different because men were raised to expect the best for themselves. They weren't raised to see themselves as someday being a woman's supporting cast member as their end role - they've always been in the starring role of their own lives. In a way, compared to women, they were each on a pedestal - and infidelity knocked them off. So they feel they've lost everything about their identities. For women, our identities never being enough is a basic part of the identities many of us were raised with, and are still treated as. We weren't allowed to be on a pedestal in the first place. We were told that we were to be supporting stars in our men's lives, and that we failed at it, and he found a new, better supporting lady that we can never compare with. Oh - and he's going to treat her as his leading lady instead of merely as his supporting one.

The pain of effemulation has always been equally bad for us. Just historically, we weren't allowed to talk about it.

But we're still blamed for everything that went wrong, just like the BHs are. We're still told that we didn't satisfy our man, that we didn't take care of his house enough, that we weren't nurturing enough, that we didn't give him enough time because we were too focused on the children, that we failed to be his wife and lover and only became "mother". All things we're judged for as women.

The betrayeds - women and men both - are blamed, because no one on the outside wants to think they could be a victim someday too. They want to think that if they do all the right things, then they can avoid that same situation of being betrayed. So men, women, it makes no difference - people will find different ways to blame the survivors for the betrayals they endured. We're blamed in more similar ways and demoralized in more similar ways than we acknowledge sometimes.

As for the BW thread... We had one a long time ago. At the time, there were more women than men on this site, so more women posted in General. Now, it seems as though there are an equal amount of men and women on SI. So I think a safe place for BWs only to post would be very welcome and would probably see a great deal more traffic now than it did before.

YMMV.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 7:06 PM, July 23rd (Monday)]

Wow, Silverhopes. That. I don’t need to add a word. I’m so sad for all of us. And i pray for my daughters that I am able to instill in them something very different. Damn these societal narratives.

The social narratives swing both ways. "Happy wife happy life"? "Her money is her money and my money is her money"? I could keep going, but you've already heard most of em.

For women, it is no easier to feel passionate with our WS's but certainly our performance is not as tied to it.

For me, my performance is intricately tied to the pain. The PA aspect is what haunts me. Sure the emotional garbage hurts but the physical aspect of not being enough of a "woman" to keep him satisfied. (Of course I know that is bullshit in my thinking brain but getting my subconscious to stop talking about it is much harder).

I think what we all can agree on is individuals process pain and trauma differently. Women are not a monolith nor are men. We react based on our own histories and psychological makeup. No one wins a prize when we play the pain olympics.

T/J -

...getting my subconscious to stop talking about it is much harder.

I was taught it's really, really difficult - maybe impossible - to stop messages. The way to go is to replace attacking messages with new nurturing/supportive ones.

I've found that works - it's not easy, but it has gotten less difficult as I've gone along.

End T/J

I could keep going, but you've already heard most of em.

But that's just it, NTV. I haven't. Those weren't the social narratives I was raised with. But I absolutely believe you were and so were other men.

The social narratives swing both ways.

That's our point. When you say this:

Okay, so take that feeling and assume it came from inside and it whispers you shouldn't call yourself a woman and then apply that feeling to literally everything you are and do and that's close to what emasculation feels like.

It comes across as you saying that effemulation doesn't feel like that (was that what you were saying? I don't mean to put words in your mouth - that's just how I interpreted it). But it does. This is exactly how effemulation feels. You might not recognize it the way we do, because we were raised with different cultural narratives you don't know, just because as a guy you wouldn't be hearing the same ones we hear. It doesn't invalidate your experiences. It means that we have some too, and it would be nice to talk about it in a safe place for women. Just so we can process these shared experiences and the specific narratives we were fed as women. Does that sort of make sense, or am I rambling?

silverhopes, Yes you are rambling but you are making sense too. Sometimes it's really hard to see the other side of things. Even tougher to have to grow and change somethings about yourself.

Just want to thank you and all the Lady's here for helping me learn about women. I have seen the inner thoughts and feelings of more women than I ever would have in any other situation.

For most of my life I have always thought of women as "all knowing" when it came to relationships and love. I mean SOMEBODY has to know right??? Nope you have no more clue than we do. All this time (I'm 68) I thought you gals really had some kind of "playbook" or SOMETHING!

Strange it turns out you are just as in the damn dark as we are. You are not some superhuman being just a woman as scared and confused as anybody else.

Thank you for showing all your flaws and all your GREAT STRENGTH!!!

You're not rambling, silverhopes, and that makes perfect sense to me, sistah!

The problem with this thread is that EVERYONE is right. Men and women all feel the pain of infidelity equally under the same umbrella. But there are different types of pain in the raindrops. We are all lying to ourselves if won’t acknowledge the evolutionary traits of each type of pain. First, we must accept that women are the gatekeepers of sex (not talking about the horrors of rape). Men are essentially opportunists when sex is available. For me, my emasculation comes from my WW that she “gifted” another man with her womb. In my reptillian brain, I now have to potentially care for a child that is not mine.

Of course there are social constructs that dehumanize women. It’s a sickness in our society that I pray disappears so my beautiful daughter doesn’t get subjected to it somehow. I know her worth and I tell her everyday.

Let’s agree, all pain sucks. And I’m sorry my brothers and sisters here are suffering.

It hits us as women in a different way when we're older than the APs. It reinforces the idea that we're only sexually valuable when we're young and by the time we're 40, it's time to shop for a newer model. As if we aren't people. As if we're just objects. We don't look like the women in the movies and magazines, but at least our spouses thought we were hot, right? There's so much emphasis on appearance and youth for women in our culture that this stuff hits us right where it hurts. Yes, logically, I know that I'm plenty attractive enough in my mid-40s and I should be happy that I'm healthy as well. I was like that before DDay. I was okay about getting older. I didn't expect to get thrown away for women half my age. I really didn't. I don't know if effemulation covers that exactly, but maybe it does. Maybe that's the woman side of emasculation in a sense. The feeling of being reduced to a meaningless object.

The feeling of being reduced to a meaningless object.

I feel that is a big part of it, DevastatedDee, that culturally we are only valuable when we are young women. And, it kills me when a younger OW, or the trophy wife, feels they are better women than older women. Because, ya know, they aren't going to age. Ha Ha! Such a betrayal of the sisterhood.