SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Agree this needs to be done asap for all the previous reasons.

Another thought - if her IC that she will see tomorrow is the same asshat that gave you gawdawful advice already, you don't need that quack interfering before your wife decides.

That counselor is likely to tell your wife to stand her ground because you're "controlling and manipulative." Or some other such garbage.

Uh uh. No Way!

You don't tell her to "make a choice", and you don't ask her to do something "by Thursday". Those are weak, ineffectual actions. You cannot control her. You can only control you. Also, you have to be willing to lose the marriage. You cannot "win" a marriage by drawing lines in sand.

As an aside, by far the weakest thing you could do is tell her to "make a choice by Thursday", then on Friday when she asks for more time, give it to her.

Sorry to beat you to death with this, but if she needs more than 10 seconds to give you an answer, see the lawyer tomorrow first thing.

If she has to "think about it", she ain't marriage material for you. Why would you even consider a woman that has to "think about it"?

You are getting some tough responses and hard 2x4s here, and everyone is right. But I know that's hard to hear right now. I know it. I'm sorry you are in this position, and you didn't choose it, and it's all SO SUDDEN that it feels impossible to upend your life like this so quickly.

But let me tell you, they are right. Everyone is right. You are still doing the Pick Me Dance, just a slightly mellower version.

I did the pick me dance for too long. I eventually did a hard 180--moved out, stopped answering texts, told her I was done, exposed her A to everyone--EVERYONE. Less than a single day later, she was begging me to come home. Begging. That is how powerful a true 180 can be. The A was shattered and the fantasy was over, and she was forced to look people in the eye who had full knowledge of the despicable things she had done.

Then, I came back too quickly. I moved back in. I didn't talk to a lawyer. I accepted too much contact with AP. I accepted too much responsibility for her A. And what happened?

10 years later, I had an awful D-Day #2 with the realization of multiple other A's.

Don't let that happen. You have to stand up for yourself, create REAL boundaries and stick to them. You need to dig deep for your self respect and remind yourself that, years from now, you're going to have to look yourself in the mirror and you will want to respect how you handled this situation NOW instead of being ashamed.

Sorry to beat you to death with this, but if she needs more than 10 seconds to give you an answer, see the lawyer tomorrow first thing.

If she has to "think about it", she ain't marriage material for you. Why would you even consider a woman that has to "think about it"?

I'm not quite sure. I keep telling myself she will eventually come to her senses. But I'm not doing that anymore.

I am going to tell her I am done with giving her time tonight.

Not positive about the outcome, but something has to be done.

Thanks again for all of the advice. I will keep you posted.

It's not your job to help hide her affair. If the other man is married inform his wife immediately. Her family too. Do not give her any more time or options. Do not tell or warn her just do it. Affairs only survive in secret. It's your best way to end it.

Don't be afraid of pushing her away. She already left. This will be your best path to bring her back.

Your lack of action just lowers your status while making her other man look strong. Never ever feed a cake eater. They just want more cake.

She's married to you. If she wants her other man then let her go. Take yourself out of the equation. Right now you are giving her the best of both worlds.

The worst thing that can happen here is you staying in limbo hell. The only one that can keep you there is you!!!!

Wake up!!!!!

[This message edited by Marz at 7:04 PM, January 22nd (Tuesday)]

Right now she is comparing you to her other man.

You are paralyzed living in fear and waking on egg shells to try and keep her.

Her other man is boldly taking what he wants.

Which one of you is more attractive at this time?

Get strong and stay there. It's your only good path.

[This message edited by Marz at 7:07 PM, January 22nd (Tuesday)]

How about you stop giving her choices and allowing her first move.

Try this instead.

See a lawyer or 2. Get a lay of the land learn your rights and obligations and what D will look like. Get the initial filing paperwork. Fill it out.

Then confront her. Ends now or we are done. You have a minute to decide. Of she chooses to stay you lay out rules and guidelines. Complete transparency. Establish NC. Tell parents what she has done with you present. Of she chooses to not choose or to go forward with D then you hand her the papers and call her parents right then and there. Blow this thing up.

Fire the MC. Fire the IC. Find one for each of you that specializes in infidelity.

You have given up control. Take it back!

I am going to tell her I am done with giving her time tonight.

Remember and use these words: "Wife, I will not share you with another man. You can have as much time as you want to sort out your feelings for him, but not as my wife. I'm finished discussing this topic with you."

Period.

Don't threaten. Don't say anything along the lines of "if you do/don't to X, I'll do y." Implement the hard 180 and meet with a lawyer.

Itendslikethis, how'd it go?

If you haven't acted yet, I urge you to change your mindset.

Your first concern and focus has to be on you and on your healing. You need to define your boundaries. If your boundaries are weak, your best bet is to strengthen them.

Suppose your W agrees to NC, with the idea that she can hide contact from you, and you find out she has broken NC. How will you respond? There is no point, IMO, in demanding that your W make a choice now unless you're willing to enforce your boundaries.

I suggest considering IC to help you set and enforce your limits and to process the pain of being betrayed.

***********************

R is a lot more than NC. NC just breaks up the connection between your W and her ap. Rebuilding your M requires a lot more than MC. What are your requirements for R going to be?

**********************

You do not get to call the tune here. You get to set requirements and your boundaries.

Your W gets to accept or reject or negotiate about your requirements.

If your W accepts your requirements only out of fear, R will not give you what you want. You need her to agree willingly to meet your requirements for R. If she doesn't, she's too likely to blame you for her discomfort when R gets difficult, and she's too likely to act out again.

R is the process of building an M that both of you want. If it's an exercise of your power over your W, you'll be setting yourself up for a very painful life, IMO.

*************************

So ... my reco is:

1) set your boundaries

2) set requirements for R

3) present to your W

4) if she agrees, R is possible

5) if she doesn't agree to meet requirements, or if she violates your boundaries, go directly to D.

[This message edited by sisoon at 12:31 PM, January 23rd (Wednesday)]

I agree with the others. You get someone off the fence by making the fence extremely pointy and uncomfortable.

You have already been more than generous with her. Now you need to take the luxury of time away from her. Start moving on without her, and start making your own plans. Whatever she then does, and whatever the end outcome YOU will be better off. It can't be doing your mental health and esteem any good being in the current situation.

It's hard, we all know it's hard. Especially when you're in the thick of it and not really knowing what to do next.

One day, you'll realise that she isn't a prize, so please stop trying to 'win' her. Sending strength and best wishes your way.

I’m with Tushnurse but I’d also say to hell with giving her any choice or ultimatum. Tell her you need some space to decide what you want for your life, you don’t want her around and ask her to leave the house for a few days.

The only choice SHE needs to make is between the cheating, limerant, deceitful unloving woman she currently is and the whole, honest, loving woman she might hope to be.

Love is a verb. It’s something you enact through doing, not by letting yourself fall into limerant illicit ego stroking with someone else.

Edie makes a good point. Maybe you need a little time and space to re-evaluate whether you want go on that long hard journey of R. ( And it ain't an easy trip, either)

Having her leave may indeed push her to the OM, however she will not have you as a plan B at that point, if it doesn't work out. That would indeed be a shove off the fence if she thinks you are seriously considering your options. You may decide it's would be easier to start over, with someone new perhaps, instead trying to cobble your marriage back together with her.

I thinking a minimum of two weeks, at a friends, at a hotel, at her parents, whatever. That should old pretty quick.

Don’t think of it as sitting on the fence. Think of it as one foot on the boat and one on the pier. Then the solution becomes obvious, you start driving away. They all of the sudden start deciding things when that happens.

UPDATE

Sorry for the delay in posting. Yesterday was a whirlwind.

I told her I was done Wednesday night. She got so angry and still is. She said she needed time for counseling first, and couldn't believe I wasn't giving that to her.

I didn't waiver though. I told Thursday had to start NC (we spoke late Wednesday).

She says she ended and will go NC. I told her I needed access to her phones and will get cameras for the house. She didn't say no, but is mad about it.

I know I'm probably still doing the wrong thing, but she does know I'm prepared for a divorce now.

That is the big change that happened this week, I know I am ready to end things. This thread helped me get there.

There is no way I could have said that previously. I was too codependent and didn't want to lose her.

I now know I've already lost her. Whether or not we can build a new relationship is the only question. I'm not sure I have too much hope for that right now.

If you haven't already, I'd suggest seeing an attorney to find out what to expect, and what your rights are. You have small children, and want to get as much time with them as possible. You don't want to get caught off guard if she turns that anger against you and tries to hurt you more.

Hang in there. You're moving out of infidelity. She may wake up and come with you, but she may not. Right now you need to look out for the best interests of you and your kids.

ItEnds:

I suspect that you, like most betrayed men, have difficulty communicating with your WW about things that hurt you emotionally. I would suggest that your communication to her is still not quite on point. You said:

I told her I was done Wednesday night.

My suggestion would be to change your message somewhat. Instead of saying "I'm done", you should say: "I will not share you with another man."

"I'm done" is another line in the sand. Now, if you decide to give R a try, you have to retract that. It looks weak and indecisive. Further, I suspect it's not true. I suspect that, in your heart, you are not in fact "done". My sense, based on your posts, is that there is ambivalence in your heart about whether to R or D. That would be normal. Most BH's would feel that way at this stage.

But what is honest is that you will not share her. The follow-up to "I will not share" is this: "Therefore, as long as you are in contact with him, in any way, or pining for him at all, I will take steps to move on with my life."

Keep in mind that D is a very slow process. It takes a year or more in most states. You can change your mind at any stage of that process and dismiss your D case. Filing a D is not like a guillotine chopping the head off the marriage. It is a first baby step on a long journey.

Starting that journey does not involve drawing any lines in sand or posing any ultimatums that you would later need to retract if you were to pursue R. It therefore cannot put you in a position where you must look weak. Instead, it is nakedly honest. Most BH's, leaving a WW in these circumstances, feel a great deal of pain and loss in the leaving. It is a "lesser of evils" type of choice.

The strength of giving the message "I will not share you" and then starting your journey is that you tell her, as part of your message, that if she wants to try to reconcile with you, as an initial step, she must be fully NC with him -- preferably via a NC message that you have reviewed in advance -- and fully transparent with all of her prior messages with him. So when she is ready to do that, she can come to you and, depending on where you are in your journey, you might consider it. You have drawn no lines in the sand. You have issued no ultimatums. You have given yourself room to exercise discretion, in the future, about whether to R or D, which will depend on her actions.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 8:06 AM, January 24th (Thursday)]

Agreed with Wifehad5. You would do well to go ahead and see an attorney. You've got a lot at stake, and even if there's some expense involved, having a solid plan is peace of mind.

I'm sorry you had a bad marriage counselor. Sometimes they get so caught up in keeping the cheater engaged in the process that they give away the store. It's like they forget that all the damage done to the BS is cumulative. There really does come a point at which you don't even want your WS back if the cheating is allowed to persist. And it really doesn't help when the counselor is actually ADDING to the cheater's delusions.

She said she needed time for counseling first, and couldn't believe I wasn't giving that to her.

This right here is crazy. It's hard to believe that cheaters get their thought process so twisted, but it's par for the course. They typically believe their own bullshit rationalizations. Your situation is compounded by receiving bad professional advice from the counselor you went to for help. Just when you needed a clear-minded third party to rebut the crazy, your MC pussed out and let your WW intimidate you both. Understand though that you are right and they are wrong.

Your marriage cannot survive continued cheating, and not because your WW can't decide what she wants, but because if she continues to pile on the damage, you WILL decide it for her. The BS eventually runs out of gas. We reach a tipping point where the love is gone and we don't want them anymore. Standing up for this one point, that the cheating stops now, actually improves your chances. You've got a wound which needs healing for every single particle of the flagrant disrespect and unlove you've been shown. That's the damage pile. Refusing to allow her to inflict one jot more can keep that damage pile smaller because it allows you to engage your self-esteem.

Get your ducks in a row. We sometimes have to be prepared to lose a marriage in order to give it a fighting chance. That's where you are now, so you need to have a plan for either eventuality.

Strength to you.

The counselor also stated she shouldn't ask for NC with the AP while she figures things out.... because if we asked for no contact we would set her up for failure and then I would be disappointed.

I hope you've fired this counselor by now. That is the most ridiculous thing ever said.

If the other man is married inform his wife immediately. Her family too. Do not give her any more time or options. Do not tell or warn her just do it.

Tell me you have done this. If not, do it today. Time to take offensive action. This is your future, don;t wait for it, make it happen. TAKE CONTROL NOW!

If she breaks NC, or refuses you access to phone,texts, etc, ( I mean full access and transparency) show her the door without any hesitation or regret. No discussion, no argument, no negotiation, just give up and let her do her thing, and you get to do yours.

And get your lawyer working.

My guess is she'll will break NC.

The absolute worse thing you can do is give her another chance at this point.

You are getting stronger, IILT. This is good. If you want to have any hope of saving your marriage, you will have to get stronger. If you eventually D you will have to get stronger as well, so you can be a happy and healthy man--for both you and your kids.

I know I'm probably still doing the wrong thing, but she does know I'm prepared for a divorce now.

I know it feels like you are doing a lot of things wrong, but don't beat yourself up--NOBODY is prepared to deal with this kind of sudden trauma. There is no roadmap. Humans are inherently inclined to trust the people we are close to, and infidelity makes people go legitimately crazy. The wife you thought you knew doesn't exist right now, so most of the skills techniques you have been using throughout your entire relationship don't really work anymore. Be nice to yourself, lean on this forum.

That is the big change that happened this week, I know I am ready to end things. This thread helped me get there.

There is no way I could have said that previously. I was too codependent and didn't want to lose her.

I now know I've already lost her. Whether or not we can build a new relationship is the only question. I'm not sure I have too much hope for that right now.

This is the sad truth, and I know it pains you to say it--but you did already lose her. Each of you need to decide if you want to try and build a new relationship. Right now, she's in crazypants land hoping that she can have both you and her lover--you should not and cannot accept that as an option. As long as she is showing this lack of remorse and complete disregard for your wellbeing, she is not a candidate for R.