SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

If I am understanding DF correctly - I can say this about the affair:

At the time of the affair, did I feel that the AP was special and the sex was special? Yes, I did. I was completely enveloped in believing all that was happening was with the love of my life, my soul mate But, in hindsight, I just do not believe that at all because I can see the big picture of what was happening.

Now that I am out of that line of thinking and I understand psychologically what happened inside the affair, that is was all just a pack of lies, and I feel extremely remorseful for my actions - I now see that time through a different lens. That lens has killed any of those feelings, and I see now the root of them were more about me than anything else.

So, I can know what I thought at the time, just as I can know what I think of it now. I am not sure if that's what DF is saying or not. I am not sure if she ever was remorseful about the affair - and maybe because she received the full consequence of divorce there was a different emotional processing of the affair?

I feel like remorse happens because we are there listening to our spouse and having them share how it made them feel over about ever aspect of the A. We can feel regret or guilt about our actions, but to me remorse is having full empathy for the BS. If they aren't there to share that with you, then you likely would be left with guilt or regret? I don't know. I don't want to even try to speak for DF, obviously her situation is different than mine.

But, I did say the other day that I can know both things at once. How I feel about it in hindsight and what I was thinking at the time. I don't have (nor do I think the rest of you) have some magical thinking that takes away the gleefulness we were feeling in the affair. But, feelings are temporary things and when they are based on things that aren't real, and on the backs of people we hurt it's impossible to look back at any of it with glee.

I also think DF is in a place where she has become increasingly unhappy in her marriage and I think we may be hearing some of her regrets of getting back in that marriage. That is different from the rest of us as well.

[This message edited by hikingout at 1:58 PM, October 7th (Monday)]

Oh, I very much regret getting into a second marriage with H—but not at all because of the A or the AP. Neither of those things have anything to do with the current situation.

BS Only

[This message edited by SI Staff at 11:36 AM, October 8th (Tuesday)]

Am I crazy or right? If your A is over and outed, do you believe the sex and/or the person was special? Or do you admit that none of that was true? If you are not out of the A and not in remorse, please don't respond as you are still in the lying to yourself phase ("No, your body odor doesn't bother me at all! It's like flowers!") that has nothing to do with truth.

OIN, you asked a question, which was whether a remorseful spouse could look back and say that the AP was special to them. Then when DF said yes, the AP was special to her, you proclaimed that's just proof that she is unremorseful. If you believe that, what was the point of your original question? Were you looking for an honest discussion or just a rubber stamp validation of your own views? If the former, you're shutting down that debate. If the latter, it's disingenuous to ask what we think.

I asked some follow up questions to fully understand her position, namely if her H is aware of her feelings. If he is not aware, I would consider her to be remorseless as she is hiding things from him. I believe I actually said that if it was fine with both of them, to each their own. My objection is that he seems to know nothing. Do you support an H not knowing something like this, BraveSirRobin? I believe you have misrepresented my comments to suit your own notions about my intentions. What is the reason for that? Why did you skip over the parts where I asked if her husband was aware?

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 11:12 PM, October 7th (Monday)]

I asked the question in honesty, to honestly hear if a WS actually ever believes that an AP was special or that the sex was special. I am not aware of such waywards unless they are still actively in the A. If a WS says, "Yes, it was special" or "She was special," I would want to confirm that this knowledge is openly part of R. If not, I guess I am still wrong as apparently there are WS who are pining for their APs just as the BS fear. In which case, it's a fake R, correct?

Sad day for me, but I guess I will have to accept that there are more false Rs with lying and omissions than I realized. I will accept that then.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 11:17 PM, October 7th (Monday)]

WS Only

[This message edited by SI Staff at 11:38 AM, October 8th (Tuesday)]

What you seemed to be asking was, "Can there be true R if the WS thinks the AP was special?" DF answered "yes, I thought the AP was special." You essentially responded, "I didn't think any waywards felt that way. Guess there's a lot more false R out there than I thought."

DF didn't say she is currently pining for the AP. She said that at the time, the AP was a person who had genuine meaning for her, and she won't rewrite history to claim otherwise. He was the man she loved before her BH and would have married in the first place if that had been an option. It wasn't, so she moved on with her life and married someone else. Then the XBF reappeared, saying he'd made a mistake. DF wishes she had been honest about her feelings and divorced her spouse instead of cheating on him. Instead, they divorced when she got caught. She also regrets her later remarriage to her BH, which seems to have been based on guilt rather than true compatibility. I respect her honesty on these points.

It's worth acknowledging, for those who are not aware, that DF's backstory is unusual on SI -- not the affair itself, but the subsequent remarriage and mutual regret about it even though there is no repeat infidelity. From what I've read in other threads, I don't have the impression that he is under any illusions about his wife's true thoughts. They're both disillusioned and white knuckling it for the kids. It's a sad situation, but not a dishonest one.

I have participated in this conversation before with DF as part of a bigger thread and I think she means it as “at the time”. That’s why I chimed in and said “at the time I believed all sorts of things that wasn’t true”, but I could be misinterpreting. I don’t believe I heard pining in any of the ws answers, but maybe I am misunderstood.

During the A, I would be hard pressed to believe any WS that claimed neither the sex or the AP was special. I know I felt that way, after all she was my soulmate.

Now all these years later, I see that neither was true.

I think we have some viewpoints that can get conflated in the post-A WS.

1. I never loved the AP.

2. I loved the AP and am struggling with still having those feelings.

3. I loved the AP but don't anymore.

4. I thought I loved the AP, but now realize I didn't.

Those categories have subsets. For instance, #s 3 and 4 could end with, "I now loathe the AP, I'm now indifferent to the AP," etc.

I think every BS wants #1, with a second choice of #4. I think everyone agrees that #2 is a barrier to R. The debate here is #3. Is it possible to have loved the AP, actually had a real bond with them, and still be a candidate for R?

It's sort of a taboo question on SI.

These are really good points, BSR. I think DF is saying number 3. I am clearly a number 4. What are you BSR? And OIN - what number are you?

I think some of us have experienced more than one of these in the road to R. I had to move from a 2 to a 4.

And the level of acceptable is probably best decided with the couple who are trying to R. I think OIN was saying it could be any of these things if it’s not hidden and agreed upon by the bs. Most bs are not going to R with a number 2 - but some may choose to give the ws time to move to number four. While others would not accept a number 2 out of the gate and separated immediately. Probably the most important thing is the bs had the truth and is given the agency to decide based in that truth.

When I was a number 2 I didn’t want to be at all which was what my h recognized. I haven’t seen many ws who come here want to be pining they want people to tell them how to stop. I doubt that makes sense to many bs, but it is torturous for the person in it. Telling them they are a bad person and why might be true but it isn’t what breaks them if it. It has to be old fashioned withdrawal. NC and time frames have been one proven cure for limerance. When someone has it for a longer period of time I always suspect social media stalking because even though it’s indirect, it’s a break of NC and allows the fantasy high to creep back in.

BSR - I can firmly categorise myself as 1, however I'd question about the idea that is what a BS hopes for.

The removal of any notion of 'love' in the affair highlights something else - that I was capable of using another person that way without any special feelings for them (which ultimately a lot of WS begin to understand they did i think, when they realise the feelings of love weren't real)

I think my WS particularly struggled though with the notion that, if i did not make any declarations of love, if i knew i didn't, then am I capable of it and did i ever love her.

Transactional sex, categorised as 1 is i'd suspect a different story - as at that point there is a fair argument it is purely and only about sex.

I think that is true, changeme. I have heard some bs’s prefer a 1 and a number of them express they would rather have had a 4. To some there might not be much of a difference between 3 and 4, but many understand why there is a distinction. I think the worst one for anyone is a two and I feel like that’s where OIN was putting DF. But like I said before I think from all I read from her she is a 3. Which might be a category that’s unique - that perhaps the relationship existed in a time or space before the affair that there was love before. But OIN said she had that as her affair too so I may be confused. We all know our own category best I guess. I relate to the limerant ones because I have been there done that. There is specific psychology about it.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:13 AM, October 8th (Tuesday)]

I thought my AP was special. Though not in some "soul mate" way. Anything that gave me what I wanted was special. Hell, if it was my male DM feeding my ego with praise- he would have been special. You really got to define special. Special to me was the act. Not the person. I had several specials going on in my life. Three in fact at the same time. Though I can see if one feeds you the most, they are going to become even more special. The longer the time spent and the longer the feeding the more emotional attachment develops.

DF I have to wonder if you two really started a new marriage and relationship. If the before was erased away like a clean slate or if it was that he happened to rugsweep and just had divorce in the card. I can't possibly see how what you did wouldn't factor at all just because you two divorced and he could claim all sorts of stuff, doesn't mean he really knew the extent of how it might have been still affecting him or might still do.

What I am floored by is the the coldness of this statement.

why would I care what his opinion was about something from 10 years ago that he divorced me over?

Why wouldn't you care? It isn't like being hurt by someone just disappears because they say lets make a new beginning. When I read the posts from you, you sound resentful that maybe it does still matter to him and you come across as not having the empathy to understand (due to resentment) because he portrayed it a different way when he decided to remarry you and you don't like having that consequence against you. If you had known he was still going to have issues with what you did 10years ago, you wouldn't have married him so you wouldn't have had to deal with that consequence of his mistrust or loss of intimacy. Just saying. That is how you come across to me. It may not be the case or your intentions or even how you feel. It is just the way you phrase it.

Zugzwang,

In part, it’s a cold statement because of the current state of our marriage. In part, it’s because that relationship was over 69 days after D-day when the paperwork came in the mail rubber stamped DIVORCED.

I never once begrudged him the decision to D. If anyone is still here who remembers me from that time, that is all I ever said—that I completely understand it, that he was not only perfectly within his rights to divorce me, but that I would have divorced me too. Even after we had been divorced for two years and had started dating again, I asked him if he had anything to say about my infidelity, any questions, etc. He said no. I would occasionally share things I read on SI. He finally got mad. He told me very bluntly that I was living in the past, I was staying stuck in a cycle of negativity and putting him in it with me, and that not only did he never want to hear one more word about SI, he did not ever want to discuss the A at all, ever again. A continuation of rugsweeping? Maybe. Was I capable of changing it? Nope.

As time went on, I began to believe that he really meant it and it all was irrelevant to him. He’s not interested in talking about it. He doesn’t check my phone or talk about triggers (he doesn’t talk about anything) or monitor my social media or ask me to check in when I’m out and about. I am aware that being divorced doesn’t erase what I did and doesn’t erase him being hurt about it. But I also know that if we got back together—at his initiative—and he, years later, had an issue with how I felt about an ex? That wouldn’t have been a relationship in which I’d have had any interest in participating. That is my choice just as much as it would be his choice to not accept that.

Hiking is right in that I am #3. She is also right in that I don’t fit the standard SI definition of remorse if a necessary condition of remorse means repudiating the reality of things at the time of. I personally believe one can be remorseful for a behavior or a series of actions while still retaining the truthful nature of the events in question. I am remorseful for having committed the sin of adultery and for hurting my H so much. I am, however, not going to lie and say my feelings for the OM at the time weren’t what they were. Remorse, to me, also = no more lies.

BSR’s analysis of my situation is spot on.

It is not my intention to cause conflict in this thread. I am merely trying to be open and honest.

I think that is where things went adrift- this was your feeling at the time - not now. I get it. And I didn’t mean to say you were not remorseful or wayward. I don’t think what you have said has been dramatic or hostile.

Honestly even though I didn’t pick number 3 there are still similarities in that I believed at the time it was true. If you base love on an emotion, rather than the wider thing it actually is, then you could combine 3 and 4. Having those feelings for me wasn’t based on anything real but the feelings did exist.

What are you BSR?

I'm a 4. The feelings I had for the OM were classic mirroring, and it made me ignore serious red flags about him. I don't hate him, though. I realize what a broken and inadequate person he is and that I pined for the ego kibble of being admired rather than for him. But I don't think he's an unqualified shit, either. Just a weak, manipulative person that I'm way better off not having on my life on any level.

I think my WS particularly struggled though with the notion that, if i did not make any declarations of love, if i knew i didn't, then am I capable of it and did i ever love her.

I can see how that would be true. And I'll put my foot even deeper in shark-infested waters: it not only calls your love for her into question, but arguably her love for you, since she's discovered that she didn't know you nearly as well as she thought she did. If you need to truly see the other person in order to love them -- and if realizing that they're a total shit, and you fell for it, is supposed to automatically kill those feelings post D-Day -- then what does that mean for the BS? Does it mean that those loving feelings they had for the WS were just as foundationally flawed as the WS's feelings for the AP? If not, why not?

It is not my intention to cause conflict in this thread. I am merely trying to be open and honest.

I actually think it's sparked a pretty interesting conversation, and one that is hard to start here. I don't mean to be disrespectful of any BS by asking these questions, but it is something I've thought about. What is the definition of love? And once you write the definition, does the original marriage meet its criteria, given that one of the participants was coldheartedly manipulating and deceiving the other?

I do feel I knew what love was prior to the A. I believe I truly loved him for all those years. And that he always loved me. I think he knew me as well as anyone ever has and sometimes better than I knew myself. I don’t feel there was a lot of manipulation, other than we started the marriage in distinct roles that I grew to resent later. By not recognizing that I had been living out a vision of what I was supposed to do rather than what I wanted to do I lost who I was. But fundamentally, I lived out what I saw in my parents marriage. Except my mom had no education no career, less ambition and none of that factored in for me and who I was. But no, I loved my husband and kids and I truly believe I was always doing the best I could do during those years.

DR-

I completely understand what you are saying. I don’t fit the SI script either.

The definition of special is “better, greater, or otherwise different from what is usual.”

Ex: "they always made a special effort at Christmas"

The sex was special. Not better or greater but otherwise different from what is USUAL.

The sex for me at the time was amazing bc I had been rejected sexually and intimately for years. I also am different than many other women in my abundant appetite for sex. (Underlying issues here of course on my end). Either way it was amazing AT THE TIME.

Looking back, meh... it still feels special in that it was significant. But remembering the sex and knowing what I know now about infidelity, it likely wouldn’t have been considered amazing.

AP and his BS were in our lives for many years before the A. That is my biggest regret. I love the family. I love AP and his BS. That will never change. What happened was special. It was significant. It was not amazing. I only thought it was at the time bc I was sick.

This post tho.. it’s like setting a person up for failure if they don’t answer it just right. There’s trggers and loaded questions... I’m sure some people are just straight up not answering it bc they don’t want to fall into the center of a circle filled with people pointing and chanting ‘still a wayward. Still a wayward’.