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I walked away and left him due to his attitude and got in the car and left the parking area. But I picked him up eventually then dropped him at this hotel and left for a bit with my kids. Not our finest moment. We just can't be together 24/7 we don't get along and vacations are always tense.

[This message edited by pinkpggy at 2:50 PM, February 14th (Friday)]

I don't know your story to be honest. But through with IC I always worked in small steps. Even letting go of my concept of marriage.

Maybe you and your husband need space?

It doesn't have to be Divorce. Separating in house. Setting out boundries on only household conversations? If you have kids, then kids talk. And that's it for a while.

Taking a distance from each other (I had the affair) helped both me and my wife. And actually, even down the line now, we go through periods where either one can ask for distance.

That space, as well, doesn't have to be final. Slowly gauge the distances that you're happy together. And work from there to figure out where your headed?

Here's the thing Pink...

I know the internet lacks voice and inflection and all, but I have to say, it doesn't even sound as if you're particularly sorry for this. And I'm not even talking about feeling sorry for your BS, which you absolutely should feel too, rather, you don't seem to be upset with yourself. Where is the part of you that says to yourself, "This isn't me. This isn't who I want to be or how I want to act or treat people. Even if someone else is being an ass, I will maintain my own self-respect and decency. Because that's who I am, and violating those boundaries would leave me unable to sleep at night, unable to respect myself"?

We all have bad days and we all sometimes get really angry and do/say things we later regret. We've all had "get out/let me out" days in the car. But afterward, a person with boundaries and self-respect looks back in shame and in shock.

I wasn't there and so I don't know the story, but to be honest, I don't need to. He could have been the world's biggest asshole that day, and who knows, maybe he had that coming to him? It's not the incident that is the main problem. The main problem is that you don't seem to respect yourself enough to not accept this in your life. And if you can't show yourself basic respect and decency, then how can you possibly show it to others? How can you expect it from others?

Have you considered maybe a little time apart? I'm not saying to get separated necessarily, rather maybe you can go visit a friend or family member for a few weeks and just allow some space and time for reflection. At some point, I think we need to see the world around us as a reflection of ourselves. If our life is a mess, sometimes it is because we are a mess inside first.

Oh I took responsibility for my actions and apologized. It's not who I am but I was done and had two whining kids. My BS absolutely deserves respect and compassion but you know what? So do I and at the point I walked away it was either that or lose my mind because zero respect was shown for me or my kids.

So that incident led to a discussion and we've had several since.

[This message edited by pinkpggy at 3:19 PM, February 14th (Friday)]

That's okay. I don't get why you don't get why someone would want to be there when a gift is opened by someone. Just because a person wants to share that intimacy or see the joy on another's face doesn't mean it is selfish or doing it for purely selfish reasons. If you have kids would you be okay with them opening their gifts Christmas morning without you? Or would you want to be there and spend that joyful time together?

Zugzwang, trying not to t/j too much, but 1. I would absolutely be okay with my kids opening up their Christmas presents without me. If it was up to me, we would't celebrate Christmas at all because a. we're not Christians, b. we already have way, way too much stuff and they have a closet full (I wish I was joking) of unopened toys from birthday and Christmas pasts that they never were into, or they got so much other stuff, and c. generally I feel like a LOT of waste gets created by Christmas (wrapping paper, empty boxes and plastic containers, etc.). Two garbage bags of single-use packaging after opening presents? Ugh.

Personally, I don't like getting material items as gifts, and I HATE opening gifts in front of other people and find it very uncomfortable, because while I appreciate the thought/sentiment, I hate having to feign happiness over something I don't need, won't use, and now have to work at to figure out how to regift and/or dispose of it responsibly.

[This message edited by ibonnie at 3:24 PM, February 14th (Friday)]

If I felt I was in a safe place to be vulnerable and share then I would. My husband is not a safe place for that.

That is just it there. You are staying in a place that isn't safe. How much healing and changing could you truly have done? To me that shows a lack of self love and respect.

I get you didn't want a show of the present. Yet, you did want him to know you thought of him. So, you wanted there to be what by showing him you cared? You mentioned it, so you clearly are bothered by the lack of emotion from it and the fact he didn't even bother by it.

It isn't assumptions I am making. I guess it is more what I would consider being healthy and healing to be. Staying and subjecting yourself to what I would define a lack of self love and respect just isn't healing to me. Projecting maybe. Simply because of my experience with a shelter and watching both my sister and sister-in-law stay in various degrees of dysfunctional to truly abusive relationships. All had one thing in common. They weren't healthy people because they stayed in an unhealthy environment. None of them had a good excuse or reason that didn't lead back to them not respecting and loving themselves to demand more and to choose to leave if the demands weren't met.

"This isn't me. This isn't who I want to be or how I want to act or treat people. Even if someone else is being an ass, I will maintain my own self-respect and decency. Because that's who I am, and violating those boundaries would leave me unable to sleep at night, unable to respect myself"?

We all have bad days and we all sometimes get really angry and do/say things we later regret. We've all had "get out/let me out" days in the car. But afterward, a person with boundaries and self-respect looks back in shame and in shock.

I wasn't there and so I don't know the story, but to be honest, I don't need to. He could have been the world's biggest asshole that day, and who knows, maybe he had that coming to him? It's not the incident that is the main problem. The main problem is that you don't seem to respect yourself enough to not accept this in your life. And if you can't show yourself basic respect and decency, then how can you possibly show it to others? How can you expect it from others?

Glad I am not the only one to see this.

Yes I agree with all of that. I'm the healthiest I can make myself in this environment. I fully see it for what it is. I know I'm not the best version of myself AT ALL. I guess I'm trying my best for the situation im in. And I need to figure out why that's enough for me when it shouldnt be. I know that.

I start with a new therapist on Wed. So we'll see.

[This message edited by ISurvivedSoFar at 6:56 AM, February 16th (Sunday)]

Then demand more for yourself. When it isn't working, it is healthy to divorce. It was a healthy choice to begin with. You did what you can after you made some bad choices. You tried to fix it. Do you have fear of that? That you can't fix this? Does that impact your self confidence? Did you maybe get an ego boost from being enough for him to choose to fix him for you? Please don't take this an attack. I am not. I am just practical and a straight shooter. I just choose to not beat around a bush like I did before I owned it. Do you need to understand it why you don't before you take action to do what is right for you both? I know he will not do IC, did you guys do MC. If not, it is okay to just put your foot down and make that a hard demand for R moving forward.

[This message edited by Zugzwang at 1:40 PM, February 15th (Saturday)]

Wow, I find myself in such a similar place right now. Limbo. No real joy or love, just taking it day by day. I don't really have any advice to offer, just know that you're not alone.

You DO deserve more, even though you feel guilty and don't think you do. But I get it it. I also feel guilty for thinking I deserve more.

I am going to tell you the way I have viewed your situation, I might be off base but sometimes it helps me when someone does this for me.

I think your marriage was already in a bad state before the A, but you didn't have the strength to leave and like many of us you took the cowardly way of having the A. Then, the A made you feel guilty and you wanted to ascertain there wasn't a way to fix your marriage.

Your husband has been not just a regular BS but has had an issue with alcohol and has also been somewhat abusive in many ways. To what degree, I can never really tell. You have wanted a divorce off and on for at least a year that I am aware of, and you know that your marriage is a bad example for your kids.

Since the time of the A, you have worked on yourself so the things that you were dealing with prior to the A are worse and the marriage even prior to the A would have been untenable with the growth you have made.

I think the one positive thing is your husband has stopped drinking for a little over a month, and if he stays that way he may in fact begin to move towards growth rather than staying stuck in the rut he has been in. Perhaps without the alcohol he may be to the point that he is sick of being stuck too. So, I think you have the decision to give that more time, or just as BPguy says what you are doing is not working it might take really moving forward with something to provide more clarity over what both of you want. Staying stuck is something I don't think is good for either side of things.

I also don't think you should berate yourself for wanting a loving, connected relationship. But, the going in circles isn't getting you any closer.

I think your marriage was already in a bad state before the A, but you didn't have the strength to leave and like many of us you took the cowardly way of having the A. Then, the A made you feel guilty and you wanted to ascertain there wasn't a way to fix your marriage.

Going on to add too that your character traits, coping skills added to the state of your marriage and your choices to having an affair. Not just the marriage. The person that had the affair is the same person that married and stayed in an unhealthy marriage. The same person you brought into a marriage. Making the person more responsible and not the marriage. Otherwise, to newbies- this statement

but you didn't have the strength to leave and like many of us you took the cowardly way of having the A.

makes it sound like blameshifting the marriage. Even in bad marriages it boils down to two people. One of which you can only control. If you choose to not take control of yourself in a healthy functional way...then the blame sits squarely on your shoulders if you choose to say your marriage contributed to the fact you were too afraid to divorce but cheated instead. The reality is you were too afraid to function in life for yourself in a healthy way. Marriage put aside. A bad marriage is the side effect of the people in it. When most WS dig deep, they see they lacked healthy functioning in many areas of their life...it is just easy to use the marriage or who they are married to as a scapegoat. Myself for examply, my biggest issues were actually FOO and relationship issues I had with my mother. I tried to bring that into a marriage that didn't function like my relationship with my parents. My wife, was healthy and I took advantage of that...looking for dysfunction. My ego and emotional bucket wasn't being filled by acts of service and KISA with my wife...so I took what I wanted and looked for more. Is that a marriage problem, no...it was my character issues.

[This message edited by Zugzwang at 10:03 AM, February 17th (Monday)]

f you choose to not take control of yourself in a healthy functional way...then the blame sits squarely on your shoulders if you choose to say your marriage contributed to the fact you were too afraid to divorce but cheated instead.

Just going on further from there. That same person is just going to bring that same person into their next relationship. It will not be any better than the current one. Going back to it not having anything at all to do with marriages/environment. It is the person that cheated not the situation. That situation is just going to keep cycling itself with new players.

Why does either party want to stay in a marriage where they are not completely fulfilled.

Kids. 💯

Zug, I don't disagree with you. And, I waited for someone to say blameshifting, it did sound that way, but it wasn't the intention.

I should have said I think that Pink's marriage had two unhealthy people in it already. I think the affair has caused her to want to change and examine herself. It instead I believe (based on reading her past posts and I might be assuming) made her husband turn even more towards alcohol and gave him more of a "reason" to show some of his abusive side. If he was just verbally abusive for some period after DDAY I would say that was probably pretty normal for what we see here. Years past dday? No, that's who you are.

I didn't mean to blameshift...more I was trying to describe the mentality of someone in an exit affair. And, if Pink has worked to become happier and healthier that marriage is going to be more untenable than before if not addressing the issues from both sides.

Darkness Falls, I hear what you are saying. Though I don't buy it. I can't imagine it is better for the children for parents to stay together. For two reasons,1. what it shows the children what to expect and settle for. 2. I also bet in most cases the environment with two parents not treating themselves with respect and each other raises children in a dysfunctional and toxic environment. Unless those two parents can put their issues with each other aside and really co-parent with respect to each other. I just don't think that probably happens very often. Most likely they are just showing their children what an unhealthy relationship is and continuing that cycle when they grow up. IDK, I just question what lessons they are teaching their children?

I read all the responses but I need to process them all and re read.

This weekend was quiet. He opened my gifts when he got home and was happy. I received flowers and chocolate. I cooked dinner and then he reciprocated on Sat. Everything was fine until last night.

He wanted to have sex and I was down for it but said I needed more than 5 minute sex. I rarely am touched during sex nor can I even get close to orgasming. There is no kissing or foreplay for my benefit. I told him it would happen later if he wanted it too. But then he went to bed and I said I wasn't feeling great. When I got into bed he rolled over and said he didn't love me anymore and he wanted me to move out. I was taken aback but I didn't argue. He said he was tired of me and my crap and getti g nothing from me. We talked for an hour then ended up having the 5 minute sex.

He apologized today. My head is spinning.

[This message edited by pinkpggy at 6:28 PM, February 17th (Monday)]

DO NOT MOVE OUT WITHOUT YOUR CHILDREN. If he wants to leave, he can.

Wow.

So reading everything you posted up until he told you he didn’t love you and wanted you to move out, including that he doesn’t satisfy you sexually, I would’ve guessed that you would have been relieved, maybe even happy that he was finally ending it. But you only say “you didn’t argue”...were you emotional about his statement at all? What did you say? How did the 2 of you go from his statement that he was done to the unsatisfying sex and his apology? Did you somehow give him hope again or did he talk himself out of it?

At this point it appears you are both done but neither one of you wants to actually pull the trigger.

I understand I'm the WS. But we are years from dday. It's not like it was yesterday and today I'm hopeful (not expecting) to be in a marriage where there is love, intimacy and fulfilling sex and some level of trust and an outlook for the future. My marriage was falling apart long before my affair so reaching an end goal at this point seems impossible.

Post affair we had hysterical bonding. Then no sex, then normal sex and maybe the past year back to no or infrequent sex. I initiate it 90%. He told me sex is only for his benefit now and he doesn't need me to enjoy it. It's not about unsatisfying sex. It's about feeling lacking and less then and unwanted during sex. I asked for more. I don't think that is unreasonable. If I work at it I can enjoy it but it's all on me to make it happen. And it just feels sad after. It's more depressing to me to have pity sex or sex where I feel unloved then no sex.

We discussed what a separation would look like and we left it as maybe that's the best thing. Just to get space. He said his head and emotions were all over the place and he felt crazy. I suggested marriage or individual therapy again but he's never wanted to go. I ask him over and over what more I can do and he never has an answer. So we both have a lot to think about. I start with a 3rd therapist tomorrow. We are 3 weeks from our 3 year dday. It's just been a very long road.

ETA: I also have to say these are things that have been going on and we've discussed over the past year. It sounds like I'm complaining but it's all been an ongoing discussion in my house while I still work on myself and the marriage. He tells me there is nothing more I can do. That I've done what I can and he appreciates it. I've never wavered in my commitment to fixing my marriage, my honesty and transparency nor have I had any new ddays or wayward behaviour in 3 years. I think we both just are scared of what's next. We've been together 22 years. None of this is easy.

[This message edited by pinkpggy at 4:47 AM, February 18th (Tuesday)]