SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Positive steps - going no contact with your spouse and contacting an attorney.

If Reconciliation is in the cards then your cheating wife had better make some choices and get her priorities straight. She’s running out of time here.

Just look at her affair like an addiction. That will give you some insight into her mindset right now.

I hope she comes to her senses. And soon. Because you cannot live like this.

Recognizing and naming your feelings is a start to healing.

Of course, you're scared - you don't know what your future will bring. My bet is that you are also feeling grief, anger, and shame. Those feelings tend to come with being betrayed.

Here's the thing: you get to choose how you respond to your W's A. If you're not ready to pull the plug on your M, you're not ready. Look at the obstacles and knock them off one by one. Note that you own your fear ... and you emailed the lawyer. You can act in your own best interests even though you're inundated with feelings.

I'm sorry you have to go through this. I'm sorry your W is hung up on om. I hope she realizes she's effed up and decides to resolve her issues. I hope she decided to resolve her issues before you get so fed up that you don;t want R.

But you're the only one who can heal you, and you have to heal yourself to R anyway, so it's really good that you're letting yourself heal.

I totally get trying to make R work. IC is a good thing for both of you. However, and if it were me, I would have absolutely no time or space for my WW continue with the OM. If she wanted that, I would have dropped her off at his door and told her to have a nice life.

I think its starting to sink in that I don't have a wife of 7 years anymore. I don't have my best friend of 20 years anymore. As it stands right now, she's not thinking about any type of R. There hasn't even been a simple "i'm sorry" for the A.

Today was very similar to yesterday. Very little conversation between each other. Just dealing with kids stuff.

Q: Do I tell her what I just said above?

The more I think about it, I don't think I will go to the "family" vacation even just for a couple of the days.

I contributed to this mess because I didn't show my feelings to her. I know that. The funny thing is I have to continue to do this: Not show her the emotion coursing through my very core.

Geek42:

You may not have been a perfect H. None of us are a perfect spouse. Your WW was not a perfect W. A good marriage is a work in progress.

[This message edited by fareast at 8:35 PM, June 27th (Saturday)]

Hey FarEast. Yea. I get that it's not just me. I know the cheating part happened because something broke in her head that made it seem like a good idea instead of the "right way" to do things.

I was kinda referring to the irony that before the A, I contributed to her unhappiness because I was not forthcoming with my feelings for her the way she was looking for them. (I did it in other ways.) But now that we are separating at home, I have to go back to the hiding of my feelings from her.

However, the difference is that I am acknowledging my feelings plus I have this group, my brother and my IC to be my village for me.

The funny thing is I have to continue to do this: Not show her the emotion coursing through my very core.

Yes, this ^^^ is one of the fundamental purposes of IC. We need to feel our feelings honestly (not hide or lie), regulate them appropriately, and learn to self-soothe. Our emotions are very real, but our own compassion and words of affirmation are all we really need.

Please realize this. It is a false assumption that the destroyer of your heart will want to heal it. This is your job, and it can and will be done. You will be ok.

Q: Do I tell her what I just said above?

As long as you don't have a wife committed to doing what she needs to do to attempt reconciliation, it's much better to not telegraph what you're doing and thinking, generally. We've seen time and again here that it just opens the BS up to more manipulation by WS.

What really has an effect is enacting the 180. Not talking about it, not telegraphing it, but just doing it. Sounds like you're there, or almost there.

I contributed to this mess because I didn't show my feelings to her. I know that. The funny thing is I have to continue to do this: Not show her the emotion coursing through my very core.

Yeah, what fareast said. 100% of the affair and all it's doing to you and your marriage is your wife's fault. 50ish% of any marriage issues you had before the A are "your fault." Those things happen in a grown-up marriage with kids, and there are perfectly mature, reasonable ways to deal with them. The A and other "marriage problems" are very separate things. Separate universes, honestly.

~

Have you thought about what would happen if, say, AP got hit by a bus tomorrow and suddenly your wife was "back"?

Meaning, if she came "back" and said she wanted to try to reconcile, what would that have to look like for you to even be able to do it? What would she have to do and say? And would it be enough?

And if it's not enough, what would you do then?

Maybe what I'm really asking is: what would a perfect-world scenario look like for you?

[This message edited by Okokok at 11:46 AM, May 30th (Saturday)]

Yep. I get that our issues prior to the A were a 50-50 split. It's how she handled it that was 100% her, and 0% me. I don't think she's got that in her head yet.

So, I did tell her this morning that I have been looking stuff and that we should start to get things lined up because D in Pennsylvania takes a year (from date of separation) from what I understand. She asked if I was looking into this? I think I surprised her when I said yes. I was looking at it.

Okokok asked

Have you thought about what would happen if, say, AP got hit by a bus tomorrow and suddenly your wife was "back"?

That's actually a good question. I have some initial ideas for an answer.

1. Working towards NC with dude including agreeing to a deadline. (I understand it's not a light switch, but I need to at least hear a commitment to doing it to even start looking at repair. Right now she's not even in the state to go this first step.)

2. She should rejoin the "Family Life360" app with me and our kids. (It's a family GPS tool. We all can see where each other is.)

3. I want a timeline of the A. Also, given that the stuff prior to A was 50/50, was there any other A or close to A activities.

4. We continue IC for ourselves, and MC. But she needs to show she's actually doing the "homework".

5. She needs to not work at the homeless shelter. I know AP is not living there anymore, but that place is just evil to me.

6. Agree that there is no 3rd try to R. If she thinks this isn't working then she needs to tell me before another A.

7. Be willing to be patient with me. I do have my own issues to work out, some have to do with her and the A, but some have to do with just me.

8. I want to hear what she thinks I need to do. I'm not saying I would agree to the things she asks for, but to me this is part of our openness that needs to get fixed. I need to know what is in her head.

I think this is a start. First time I've actually put this down. So, I'm sure I'll tweak it.

So, I did tell her this morning that I have been looking stuff and that we should start to get things lined up because D in Pennsylvania takes a year (from date of separation) from what I understand. She asked if I was looking into this? I think I surprised her when I said yes. I was looking at it.

Funny how the record scratches and they take notice when they observe these things, huh? You dipped your toe in the 180 waters, and you saw a little something. How did that feel?

Secret tip: the more you can *really* do this, and not just talk, but seriously *do* the things in the 180, the more you're going to see the record-screeching taking-pause sudden-panic possible-change-in-attitude and "waking up" in your wife.

I cannot stress enough that this cannot be the reason you do the 180, and I cannot stress enough that despite any changes you may see in her, there is no guarantee that your wife will ever "come back" and be solid reconciliation material for you. And even if she does, there is no guarantee that it will be enough for you in the end.

But it is one very common side-effect of *really* doing the 180. Have you gone back and read up on it, really considered doing it? I'd bet that if you can fully commit to it for 48 hours without breaking (which means some changes to how you've been interacting with WW thus far), you'll come back here blown away by the sudden changes in your wife.

And then, by my calculation, you'll be in a much stronger and better position to really look at what's in front of you and make clear decisions about where to go from there.

Anyway, to this:

That's actually a good question. I have some initial ideas for an answer.

1. Working towards NC with dude including agreeing to a deadline. (I understand it's not a light switch, but I need to at least hear a commitment to doing it to even start looking at repair. Right now she's not even in the state to go this first step.)

2. She should rejoin the "Family Life360" app with me and our kids. (It's a family GPS tool. We all can see where each other is.)

3. I want a timeline of the A. Also, given that the stuff prior to A was 50/50, was there any other A or close to A activities.

4. We continue IC for ourselves, and MC. But she needs to show she's actually doing the "homework".

5. She needs to not work at the homeless shelter. I know AP is not living there anymore, but that place is just evil to me.

6. Agree that there is no 3rd try to R. If she thinks this isn't working then she needs to tell me before another A.

7. Be willing to be patient with me. I do have my own issues to work out, some have to do with her and the A, but some have to do with just me.

8. I want to hear what she thinks I need to do. I'm not saying I would agree to the things she asks for, but to me this is part of our openness that needs to get fixed. I need to know what is in her head.

I think this is a great start. It's important to know what your needs are.

Just to be clear: are you saying that, as sad as it makes you, you will move toward real separation and D if WW can't meet any/all of these needs?

[This message edited by Okokok at 9:29 AM, May 31st (Sunday)]

Yea. I gotta continue some of the 180. I'm not 100% compliant yet. But, even from my side, last night was probably the best night of sleep I've had in a while. Not great, but better. I didn't feel the obsession and depression to the same level as before. I'm in the mindset that I don't have a wife and best friend anymore because she hurts me every minute she still has the A. Maybe not quite at the Michael Corleone/Fredo relation of "dead to me," but something in the middle.

As to "the list", I think some of those items are a higher-priority requirement than others. #1 is #1. No if-ands-or-butts. Stuff like #5 and #8 can be "later". But still needed to "close the book" for this stuff.

And yes, if she's not willing to do these things at all, then yes. I'm ready to go to full S and D. And even while she's mulling things over more (I know I'm letting it drag on more), in the background I plan to meet up with my lawyer this week. Just to look the legal and fiscal ramifications of everything. Again, I don't want the kids (including my 2 step kids) getting screwed because Mom and Dad couldn't communicate years ago.

It's gonna be tough. And I still tear up thinking about it. But yes, I don't want to stay in this limbo dance for the next 3 months.

#1 is #1.

I agree with you. And this is not to nitpick, but I am interested in how you feel about your wording here:

1. Working towards NC with dude including agreeing to a deadline. (I understand it's not a light switch, but I need to at least hear a commitment to doing it to even start looking at repair. Right now she's not even in the state to go this first step.)

I do want you to know that I get why you're thinking this. I remember thinking the same way.

When you have moments of clarity, take the time to step out of the absolute absurdity of this situation when you can. A boyfriend is not a medical affliction that happens to married women that they need to wean from like a methadone step-down program.

It takes about five minutes to write a proper no-contact message and about five seconds to send it.

However, it would appear, from other posts around here (check out the Wayward Side forum, and in particular "Maia's Withdrawal Survival Guide") that WS's do go through a withdrawal/grieving when they give up their AP in favor of BS. Awesome feeling for the BS

But seriously, there is no reconciliation when WW is "working toward" no contact. I suppose reconciliation can be in process while WW is withdrawing/grieving (though I struggle with that concept), but not if there is contact. Just be aware of that. If WW is in contact with AP, you should be in full 180 mode and actively working toward D.

Yea. I gotta continue some of the 180. I'm not 100% compliant yet.

Remember: neither I nor anyone else is advising you to do the 180 and work toward separation/divorce (fyi, working toward S/D is just a part of the 180) because we *only* care that you get a divorce; we are telling you to do these things because it is what gets the results that you are seeking. *So* hard for a new BS to believe that or even understand it. It's why it keeps being repeated here on your thread over and over and over. You want results, you have to buy in.

"Some of the 180" will get you "some" of the results. But WW still has a boyfriend. Maybe consider *all* of the 180 and see what happens.

(Standard disclaimer, which I will repeat whenever I remember: there is never a guarantee that WS "wakes up" or "comes back" with a well-implemented 180--it's just a thing that very often happens. It's also not a guarantee that after nuking the marriage for months and treating you like trash that you'll feel very good even if she does do a 100% turn-around and begs you to give her another chance [again, another thing that often happens when the BS does the 180]. But without implementing the 180, in your situation, all you have is continued, indefinite limbo.)

I still stand by the statement I've made several times to you: commit to the 180 and *really* do it, 100%, for 48 hours, and I believe you'll come back here marveling at how right I was.

I'm writing to point out that the 180 minimizes communication, geek42, and right now you need to maximize it, because without communication, your W won't be able to find out your requirements for R, and you won't be able to find out if she becomes a candidate for R.

Part of the 180 is about building your boundaries, and that's what you need to do. Other aspects of the 180, not so much.

I agree with Ok on #1 - pulling the plug should be the easy part. Your W may have to go through the withdrawal that Maia talks about, but your W can stop actually getting in touch with om with a simple text saying, 'This is the last time I'll contact you. Please don't contact me.' Add an agreement to report any contact to you, so the 2 of you can decide how to respond, and that's NC.

I recommend reading https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/healing_library/reconciliation/what-every-wayward-spouse-needs-to-know.asp?

If it makes sense to you, print it off, cut off the URL info, and ask your W to read it. If she does, then ask if she's willing to do what the author recommends.

I am sorry, but I disagree with Sisoon (who I usually agree with). Your wife knows how you feel, she just doesn't care. You can also see someone working toward changing while doing the 180. That's exactly what happened with me, and it caused me to want to give my WH another chance.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 11:13 AM, May 31st (Sunday)]

I am sorry, but I disagree with Sisoon (who I usually agree with).

I really have to say the same in this instance, no offense to sisoon.

As always, definitely take what makes sense to you, but please be wary of "maximizing communication" with a wife who continues to have a boyfriend. As far as I can tell, you have been in maximum-communication mode for a long time, to include marriage counseling, while your wife has continued her affair.

It's not working.

What you've been doing is akin to "nicing/explaining" her back. That never, ever, ever works. Explaining your reconciliation needs right now is quite premature.

I have personal experience in laying out my list of reconciliation needs and expectations with my exWW, when she still was actively in her affair, and I regretted it and still do (though I'm actually glad that I ended up divorcing, but I'm not you). She threw it back in my face as me being "controlling" and as "evidence" that she was justified in her A. Fair warning. In my opinion, it only fueled the flames of the ongoing affair. Her affair never stopped and we divorced.

In my humble and experienced opinion, the only thing your wife needs to know right now is that as long as she has a boyfriend, you are moving in a different direction, because it's impossible for you to share your wife. You already know the answer to whether she is a good candidate for reconciliation; right now, she is not. Can't be a good candidate and also have a boyfriend.

There will be plenty of time for conversation and communicating your needs down the road. But she is actively in an affair. She does not need to hear how you need a timeline, etc. That's step #10, and you haven't even achieved step #1 yet.

Again: as long as there is an ongoing affair, you should be in full 180-mode. Please really hear that.

[This message edited by Okokok at 11:29 AM, May 31st (Sunday)]

What you've been doing is akin to "nicing/explaining" her back. That never, ever, ever works. Explaining your reconciliation needs right now is quite premature.

Yes.

I spent years "explaining" my hurts to my WH, and from what I read here that is a very common mistake. The day that I finally stopped explaining and started detaching, doing the 180, and ultimately beginning divorce by finding us a mediator is the day that he magically started hearing me. Of course, it took a year of solid action on his part--all while I was in 180 mode and in house separation--to stop the divorce. I did not fall for his empty promises as I had done in the past. I truly felt done with his behavior, just done. And he knew it.

Detaching, soft 180, hard 180--these things are about choosing yourself as a human being who deserves dignity and kindness over the continuation of the abusive marriage. I started to respect myself, value my hurt, and take strong actions to stand up for myself against his abuse, as I saw it. I ask him now, "Why did you not change earlier?" and he says, "I was scared to change, scared to even look closely at myself. Nobody in my family does that. I felt in completely unfamiliar territory and I resented it. But when you took steps to leave, I knew that it was time to stop running and avoiding."

This is NOT a guarantee, but it does happen. Cheating is an avoidance and denial coping mechanism for those who do not like to look at themselves. That's why they hide their pain under layers of fantasy. These same people naturally fight against the looking and analyzing and accepting of their flaws when it comes to reconciling and fixing themselves. They are too uncomfortable to do that and most likely always have been. It is only when the pain of what we are about to lose exceeds the pain of what we are avoiding that we step up and face our fears. Some waywards cannot; they simply cannot and will not look at themselves under the microscope. But some, when faced with a terrifying and painful loss, will finally do the work.

Good luck to you. I hope that you can find respect for yourself which you deserve. Everything else gets better from there.

Thanks for the feedback gang. I have related the idea of item #1 to her. She knows that in order for us to start repair, AP needs to go. I think when she's decided that she's ready to do that, then we can go over the other items on my list.

I think my difficulty with the 180 and NC with my WW is when drawing the line with just stuff about her and me, and stuff about the kids. Sometimes they are intertwined in the conversation. Like wanting to know when she's leaving/coming back. Do I care what she's doing? Of course, but I don't let her know that.

I guess my uncertainty is around what NC really means too. Like cold turkey don't talk at all? Or just be polite don't ask questions. Like "good morning", "hello" stuff, but not "How was your day at work"? Do I want to create the almost "hostile" place where we give each other the silent treatment? That seems a bit overkill. I also assume that I just do it. I don't announce what I'm doing.

As it is now, she's living here (in her own room.) So, we have to get along to a point. I also said before that I wasn't pushing her to an answer. So I guess I left that door open. But maybe by just doing the 180, that will force her hand to pick her future sooner rather than later. I am currently under the mindset that we are done. I did notice that she has a new book in her room that is more of a self-help book "The Strength in our Scars". That is actually out-of-character for her. So, I at least know she's trying to "fix" herself as well.

I guess my uncertainty is around what NC really means too. Like cold turkey don't talk at all? Or just be polite don't ask questions. Like "good morning", "hello" stuff, but not "How was your day at work"? Do I want to create the almost "hostile" place where we give each other the silent treatment? That seems a bit overkill

In your situation, NC (between you and WW) is impossible, so definitely put that out of your head. You cannot go NC with WW, and you never will, actually, because you have kids.

And no, you definitely don't want to give the silent treatment. No sulking, huffing around, rolling your eyes, scowling, frowning, and making your silence "known." That is not 180 behavior and it has the opposite effect of the 180.

Instead, you treat her like a business associate who no one really likes, but you have to work with anyway. You're not mean, and you're not a jerk; you're kind, but distant. You absolutely can say "good morning" or talk about "business" (for you, that's the kids and finances), but otherwise your focus is elsewhere.

I also assume that I just do it. I don't announce what I'm doing.

Correct. You just do it. No more engaging, no nothing. You don't ask her where she's been or where she's going, and you don't offer the info to her. Your time is your time, and hers is hers. You don't follow her around the house, you stop doing things for her, don't make her food, don't do her laundry, you don't engage in any conversations at all unless they're about the kids or finances. When the kids are in bed, you're done for the day--no hanging out and drinking a glass of wine with her on the couch. If that's what she's doing, then you go into your bedroom and play a game on your phone and go to sleep.

And so on.

As it is now, she's living here (in her own room.) So, we have to get along to a point.

Totally. Just like the person you have to work with and be nice to but otherwise have no interest in hanging out with. You're kind and pleasant, even smiling and helpful when with the kids. But then the whistle blows and work is done for the day.

"The Strength in our Scars". That is actually out-of-character for her. So, I at least know she's trying to "fix" herself as well.

People who are actively doing (or have done) something that is generally shunned by society and against their own ethics and value system have a psychological *need* to justify their own behaviors. Hence, for your wife, this book.

I've seen it a lot here and my exWW did the same. Cheaters find books and articles that almost "back up" what they're doing and thinking, even if they have to twist the author's intent. I was frantically reading everything I could related to healing a marriage from infidelity, and she was suddenly a Brene Brown (who is awesome, don't get me wrong) expert, reassuring herself that she was a strong, self-actualized woman for sleeping with the 25-year-old kid at work while still married to me.

I haven't read this book, of course, so maybe I'm wrong. Doubt it, though.

~

Anyway, back to the 180: it's not the silent treatment, and it's not being mean. It's just a way of being that gets good results for someone in your position.

Thanks for the feedback gang. I have related the idea of item #1 to her. She knows that in order for us to start repair, AP needs to go. I think when she's decided that she's ready to do that, then we can go over the other items on my list.

One of the problems in this dynamic is that you seem to be allowing her to have all the cards and are "waiting" for whatever decision she makes, instead of "reacting" to her moves, you should take control of your life, you KNOW she has a boyfriend and refuses to give him up, that alone should be ALL you need to know to file for D and have her served, the spouse who files the D has control over the proceedings, this is you being "proactive" and taking firm steps out of infidelity, if she comes around and commits to NC IMMEDIATELY (not over time), then and only then should you entertain the idea of slowing/stopping the D process (it typically takes a long time), otherwise just let it run its course and get out of infidelity.

I think what I need to do is resign to the fact that shes not coming back. The 180 really seems to emphasize repairing myself without having a partner to be part of my life anymore. I am working to rebuilding myself too. I've started doing more exercise. Trying to get back on my weight watchers program and being more involved with the kids. Covid has made visiting and my trips to the local craft brewery pub difficult. But today I went shopping for some clothes instead of ordering online.

I have reached out to my lawyer and will hopefully be meeting with him this week. I have not told my friends and family at this point except for my brother and his GF. They have been supportive as well.

I think I get some of this 180 stuff now. Just have to do it better. Funny thing is I think our MC had been suggesting this too without actually calling it a 180. Interesting...

I think my last conversation with ww was yesterday. And part of that involved me also saying that I don't have a wife and best friend anymore. And that I have started looking into divorce and separation. The rest of our taking was just kid oriented. Or me telling her I was leaving for a bit so she knows she's got kid duty.