SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I am considered a bit of an R skeptic. Although to be more accurate, I am really someone who wants to believe R is possible (who wouldn't want R for themselves and others? who wouldn't want to see families maintained instead of ripped apart?) but who has a very high bar for what I would consider a successful, authentic reconciliation. I don't see very often a true circumstance of "stronger, better" after infidelity.

Regardless of my stance, I can say with a reasonable level of confidence that you're a long ways from R.

And, look, I get it.

In my own circumstance I've accepted unacceptable things (playing house in my home, unprotected sex in my home, a high level of gaslighting, intentional disrespect, trickle truth, a failed polygraph, footdragging on timeline and transparency, burying evidence).

There are, however, some distinctives to your situation that seem untenable from where I sit:

1. You both still work where this workplace affair happened. Normally, the SOP would be to seek new employment elsewhere. But maybe finances and circumstance prevent that. In any case, I'm not sure how you have maintained composure and didn't lose your mind the past few years.

2. The AP still works there, too, and went out of his way to try to provoke you. Again, I'm not sure how you were able to restrain yourself and why your WW could ever think this was a workable situation.

3. Your (f?)WW maintains a quasi-arm's-length relationship with a friend who enabled her wayward attitude after the affair came out. To this day, it seems like your WW (intentionally, willfully) doesn't get it.

Your WW should have stepped up a long time ago. She should have cut this friend out of her life immediately. She should have been seeking new employment immediately. She hasn't done these things.

And that's why you're back here on SI looking for advice. Read what Bigger wrote several times and let it sink in.

[This message edited by Thumos at 2:07 PM, August 5th (Thursday)]

About 3 months after dday, I had a "friend" who told me that she was cheating (I think it was just an EA, but was rapidly moving to a PA if it had not already) on her husband. I didn't tell her it was no big deal. I told her it was reprehensible. And then I sent the screenshots of our convo to her husband. I told her I did it and that I hoped that she would do the work to fix things and then I blocked her on everything.

That was a friend thing to do. There is no acceptable reason for cheating ever. And I would NOT be being a good friend to her by condoning or minimizing what she was doing - friends build each other up and make each other better people and hold each other accountable.

I don't blame you in the slightest for having an issue with your ww's 'friend' because not only is she not a friend to your marriage, she also isn't one to your wife.

ButAnyway Thank you for sharing. There was no coverup in my W’s affair. I asked her point blank, she said “No. Let’s just leave it at that.” I said “So you’re cheating”, and she left the house for the night. The next morning she came home and admitted to the A, leaving out some details. They all came out in the wash though. My W’s friend told her to deny the A on messenger that night, a conversation I was watching in real time (as soon as she left that night, I of course logged into her account). My W didn’t take the advice and came home guilty as shit. I am going to take Bigger’s script and pretty well plagiarize it (with permission?). It’s good…

Aletheia Just out of curiosity, is your name a play on “Althea” by the Dead? If so, I love that song! I agree with you about Bigger’s advise. He’s pretty much right on, and I appreciate it. I do think that friendship is fading, and I think it is because my W is seeing her for what we know she is. I’ll see, but so will she…. It’s funny, when I told my W about the concerns I had, she said she wished I could see how happy she was we were staying together! You couldn’t write that shit!

Thumos The work thing has been brutal. FYI, the OM was fired at the end of the school year following the A because he was bad at being a janitor. He did nothing. So it was just the one year, but it was pretty fucking awful (excuse the language). I’m not entirely sure how I made it through. I’m coming to terms, slowly and with help, with being in that building. Luckily, we are getting a new building in a different location in the next little while, so it’s temporary. To be perfectly honest, I am not proud I had to go through what I’ve been through, but I am proud I didn’t lose my career for punching a janitor (it would have felt awesome, but it would have given him what he wanted).

You’re right about my W not doing enough. There is no way I should have gone through what I went through. That’s on me though, at the time, I was terribly afraid of losing my marriage and my family. Things are different now. I want to be married to her. There is way more I love about her than anything else. But I know, without a doubt, I’d be absolutely fine without her. Hell I might even meet someone who won’t cheat on me!!!!!! In the now, I’m pretty happy with our life. These triggers though! They have a way of bringing everything back.

EllieKMAS Thank you! I agree that she isn’t a friend of any of ours, and I do believe my W is coming to that realization too. It’s just going to take her longer! I totally wish my W had more friends like you! She has some super cool friends. This one is the only one she told about her A. Telling behaviour. I hadn’t thought about this until now. Fuck.

Again, edited for grammar

[This message edited by HardRain at 7:24 PM, August 5th (Thursday)]

Some friends have the notion that it's their responsibility to support a friend in whatever they do. HardRain, has your FWW discussed this with her friend and explained that regardless of whether she thought that she was being supportive in the moment - while she herself was buried in the dysfunctional thinking of a WS - it was not helpful at all. In fact, it was deeply harmful and could have helped destroy her life.

This ^^^ is what I was going to say. I sometimes find it hypocritical here that we give a WS a chance to rehabilitate but not the friends, family, colleagues, or maybe even APs who also made really poor choices along with the WS. Really? No one but our WS deserves a chance to fix themselves? How convenient. Not only that, but we essentially say, "Do as I say, not as I do" as we ask the WS to cut people out when we didn't cut the WS out of our own lives. The original perpetrator gets to stay in our lives, but all accomplices must go? It makes no sense. It's short sighted.

This is a very long friendship with a woman who seems to support whatever your wife wants in life. Sorry, I do not believe that's a bad thing. People with good intentions are hard to come by. Has your WW explained the whole issue to her friend? Have they had a long, honest discussion? Do you have any needs or requirements from this friend that could make you feel better or safe? Have you fully shared how she hurt and disrespected you? Does she even get it? Do you have any requirements for the friendship to continue like you did for your marriage to continue? A letter of apology she should write you? A public apology? A letter to OM telling him off? A long conversation with you?

Not every friendship or relationship can or should be saved, but many deserve a chance. It's just something to think about. Seems like this woman could learn a lot from you and your WW. That could be a good thing and make for a better friend. It seems to me you hate her because she really hurt you and has done nothing to make it right. Maybe she needs to fix that.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 6:06 AM, August 6th (Friday)]

I want to help you get on track. Like I stated in my fist post on this thread I really don’t think you are in true reconciliation…

Your updates make the situation slightly easier. Knowing that the OM is no longer working at the same place as you two is a plus. Just keep in mind that R is like a marathon only you BOTH have to cross the finish-line and you are learning and training while you are running. Having OM at your work would be like both of you doing the marathon while dressed as Big Bird. It makes an already hard thing even harder.

I want to challenge you to really think about a key sentence you made:

I spent the next year desperate not to lose my marriage and my family (we have two kids, 3 and 5 at the time). Honestly, with no kids I would have gone nuclear. I didn't.

I want you to really evaluate that sentence and really think long and hard WHY you want to reconcile…

Your kids are what… 7 and 9 now? Grow every year and hopefully eventually leave the home to start their own individual lives. Hopefully always returning to visit and hopefully always a part of your lives. But still – as “kids” they are only in your life for a relatively short period. Basing a MARRIAGE on your temporary role as parents… no… not a great idea. You will spend more years, more time with your wife and without your kids and/or your role as those that raise them.

Basing a marriage on “the kids” is never a good idea. It’s like deciding NOW that you need to drive a station-wagon for the rest of your lives because that’s the only type of vehicle that fits your family at the moment.

There are DOZENS of posters here on SI that will tell you they are only in their marriage for the kids. Many will add that the moment the kids leave for college they are filing. Over the years I have seen posters stating that drop off this forum when their kids reach that age… I have also seen many extend the period to “when they graduate”. I have seen very few – like 0 – that come here and share that at d-day they consciously decided to remain married until Joe jr. left for college and now that they have dropped him off at the dorm they are filing.

“The kids” is generally a bad excuse to possibly cling on to infidelity IMHO… It allows us – the BS – to accept not dealing with infidelity and the marital issues because the M is only a temporary situation. Sort of like we might patch a roof rather than replace it and be OK with strategically placed buckets in a downpour despite the damage caused.

Don’t get me wrong! Having kids is a great reason to attempt reconciliation, but only if one key element is present in both you and your wife.

Do you want to be married to each other?

The key factor IMHO is that BOTH partners are clear on this issue: Do you want to be married to your spouse?

Not can you be married or should you be married, but do you WANT to be married.

I challenge you to this mental exercise:

Sit down and think why you are married. What would divorce look like?

List down the reasons to remain married:

The kids? Well… keeping in mind that a) the main blueprint for your kids future relationships is how their family’s dynamics are so you are modeling a cold, disconnected and (slightly/possibly) dysfunctional pattern for them to learn b) they are only there temporarily c) although generally research indicates that the IDEAL pattern for a kid is two or more loving parents the second best is AT LEAST one loving parent and/or two loving coparents.

If your main concern is the effects of divorce on the kids… then do a divorce that does the least damage. Can be done if both parents set aside their interests and focus on the kids interest.

At the very least I encourage you to not simply ASSUME that divorce would irrevocably damage your kids, and to research what family-pattern is likely to be disruptive for them. I guarantee that non-married but good and loving coparents beat cold, dysfunctional and depressed married couple that see their kids as a project.

I really get that the above is a heavy task and I’m not suggesting it so you reach the conclusion to divorce. If you do… well… great… your marriage wasn’t built on a solid foundation. What I am hoping for though is that you can remove your kids as a reason to remain married and put them in the correct place: a good reason to work on the marriage.

Do the same with all other hindrances that “force” you to be married:

Finances? There are formulas in place to ensure a fair deal in D.

Custody? Same as finances.

Less time with kids? Many argue that with custody you get MORE time with kids because you can work your ass off, clean the house and do the chores the week you don’t have them and then spend your time with them with them…

Basically what I’m encouraging you to do is remove all the reasons to remain married until you only have one:

You WANT this woman to be your wife.

When you get to that point you realize that its only your WILL and your DECISSION that’s keeping you there.

To me that is such a liberating thought. You have both options open for you – the one you want and the one you might have to go if your WILL and DECISSION isn’t enough.

If you are brave (and sensible) you get your wife to do the same exercise.

Hopefully that leaves you two looking at each other and realizing that the ONLY thing keeping your together is your will to remain married.

It’s like the difference between being forced to run laps in PE, or willingly strap on your shoes and going for a run at your own time and pace. All of a sudden you are working on your marriage from LOVE and not FEAR.

Once you both decide you want to be married because of each other rather than some external factor you can start asking the difficult task-oriented questions:

What are your expectations in marriage?

How do we meet these expectations?

What can we do to reach our goals with the marriage?

Going back to the marathon comparison. What you have done with this is dispose of any Big Bird costumes and/or most encumbrances. You have increased the chances of you two both understanding what you are doing and where you are headed. You have created a tool to ensure one waits while the other catches up, and that both encourage each other onwards. Still a long way to the goal and no guarantee of reaching it, but it definitely is better than the present where the goal is at best the watering-station of needing-to-stay-married-for-the-kids-that-will-eventually-grow-up-and-leave-home-leaving-us-two-alon e-with-no-foudation-for-our-marriage.

This ^^^ is what I was going to say. I sometimes find it hypocritical here that we give a WS a chance to rehabilitate but not the friends, family, colleagues, or maybe even APs who also made really poor choices along with the WS. Really? No one but our WS deserves a chance to fix themselves? How convenient. Not only that, but we essentially say, "Do as I say, not as I do" as we ask the WS to cut people out when we didn't cut the WS out of our own lives. The original perpetrator gets to stay in our lives, but all accomplices must go? It makes no sense. It's short sighted.

A BS only has so much grace to extend. Sometimes there’s barely enough for their partner, much less for a menagerie of cheerleaders who “supported” their wayward in the destruction of their marriage.

A BS only has so much grace to extend

Improved relationships do not detract from one's life, they enrich it. It is not a zero sum game.

Wow, this post took a turn overnight! Seeking2Forgive and OwningItNow Thank you for your perspectives. I get the importance of that friendship for my W, and I will not ask her to get rid of that friend. I hadn't really put in any thought about what it would take for me to bury the hatchet. To be honest, until right now I hadn't even considered it as a possibility. I guess I should. I think the idea of a conversation with my W where she fully and honestly explains why her words were so hurtful would go a long way. For me, a simple, heartfelt admission of guilt and apology would go a long way. Knowing that the friend understands is important to me. "Not every friendship or relationship can or should be saved, but many deserve a chance. It's just something to think about. Seems like this woman could learn a lot from you and your WW. That could be a good thing and make for a better friend. It seems to me you hate her because she really hurt you and has done nothing to make it right. Maybe she needs to fix that." This feels 100% accurate.

Bigger Again, thank you. Are you a social worker or counsellor? I did almost that exact exercise with mine a little more than a year after dday, and then did it with my W during couples counselling. It wasn't exactly the same questions, but independently, the goal was for me to realize I'd be fine if I stayed married or got a D, either way, I could be happy. It helped set me in the right direction, and it helped me realize I didn't have to or need the marriage in my life. I wanted it there, but it wasn't something my happiness relied on. It makes me happy, and I do want to be married to her now. As far as the kids go, I love having them in the house when I wake up every morning. But the idea of a week on followed by a week totally to myself is pretty appealing! My W during the couples counselling exercise was just like "I can't imagine my life without you!" I asked her what she thought she was doing during her A. I think it drove the point home. She has come back to it, and she doesn't say she needs me or can't imagine her life without me. It is more focused on being happy with me and with our life together. Maybe I shouldn't hesitate to use the f in fWW. I guess we might be further along than I let myself believe. I often teach my students that writing things out can help you come to a new or deeper understanding. Who knew it is true?!?!

In that first year, it was the constant presence of the OM in my immediate life that made me want to go nuclear. It was the external pressures that I was struggling with. I could have absolutely destroyed my W's reputation, as both a teacher and community member. Don't forget, during this time, I was really dealing with the abuse the OM was throwing my way alone. My W has come to see it, but at the time her survival mode was to put her head in the sand and pretend everything was awesome for both of us. It really, really wasn't. The A was as much her as him, that is for sure. So me taking it on myself to go after him would have probably exposed everything (at least it would have how I played it out in my mind at the time). This would have meant totally and absolutely humiliating the mother of my children in a very public way (again, this is how I played it out in my mind). There was no way I was going to do that, and it meant protecting her when she didn't really deserve to be protected. The hardest part was it also meant protecting the OM. Fortunately, there were a couple other teachers who knew what I was going through and took it upon themselves to complain relentlessly to the principal about the state of the school (he was pretty terrible at his job) and left the principal no real choice but to fire him. I've also taught two of his kids. They've both called me "dad" on several occasions!

[This message edited by HardRain at 8:27 AM, August 6th (Friday)]

Aletheia Just out of curiosity, is your name a play on "Althea" by the Dead? If so, I love that song!

It’s not! But I looked up the song and I like it ☺️

This one is the only one she told about her A.

We all have friends that have different functions. Bff #1 is my ride or die #2 is fellow empath #3 is bb. If I were a wayward, I’d be comfortable telling all 3 about my A, but none would support or encourage. Not even naughty #1. I have had friends in the past that would aid & abet if I had an A, and because they are that type of people, they’re "former" friends.

THIS is who your wife went to share the A. You’re spot on when you say it’s telling.

Completely get where OwningIt is coming from. I grimace when AP is family, or family adjacent, but BS immediately drop kicks them, some going as far as to ruin them, concurrently asking SI how to salvage the marriage to WS, AP’s co-conspirator.

Near comparison, BS has severe hatred of AP, dedicated to destroying that person’s life, but hate the OBS for feeling that way about WS, scared the OBS will exact the revenge on WS just as BS wants to do to AP.

HardRain isn’t hypocritically dumping the friend, he was never close to her. No one’s proposing to destroy her.

Some people support their friends in anything they do, good friends draw the line when it’s destructive. Had WW said she wanted to commit suicide, should ‘friend’ support that? Buy her the gun? Less extreme, had WW wanted to get a terrible hair cut, guarantee ‘friend’ would try to talk her out of it. Refuse to drive her to the salon.

Here WW was engaged in an affair, destructive to WW’s entire family. ‘Friend’ supported the A. ‘Friend’ blamed HardRain & defended AP. HardRain’s relationship with his WW didn’t improve until there was distance with ‘friend’. JMO, she gotta go.

Good luck HardRain, no matter what, hope it all works out for your family.

edit: spelling

[This message edited by Aletheia at 4:06 PM, Friday, August 6th]

It doesn’t sound like your WW has experienced much, if any, consequences for her betrayal.

That’s the thing with removing toxic friends from your life … you don’t have to deal with their toxic influence going forward AND your WW experiences some tangible consequences for her actions.

I don’t think you’re wrong at all. This friends does not seem to be a friend of your marriage. This is obviously (and understandably) a trigger for you. Your wife knows that.

In maintaining this friendship, your wife is demonstrating to you that this friendship is more important to her, than your feelings of safety in the marriage. I think you need to talk to your wife about cutting or at least minimizing this person from her life. Right now, her focus should be on you.

Your wife's behavior implies that since the affair was a long time ago - you should be over it by now.

IMO you should get angry (but civil) and lay down a hard NO. Inform your wife that just the mention of this woman triggers all the pain of your wife's betrayal. How dare she even suggest that you should relive the affair.

It doesn't matter if it's fair to the 'friend'. The only relevant issue is how you (their victim) feel.

Recovering from infidelity is an ongoing life long process that is difficult enough without worrying about reconciling with some distant acquaintance/'friend' from your wife's past life of adultery.

This 'friendship' is just a relationship from the past that has been on and off over many years. This is not some deep heart felt daily friendship.

It's a relationship that is forever tainted by your wife's affair. And NC is a consequence of the woman's complicity in your wife's affair. Time doesn't cleanse it.

IMO the woman envies your wife; is jealous; and compares herself to your wife (and checks in hoping to hear bad news).

Why? because friends do not remain silent when a friend is acting out of character or self destructive.

She had a chance to save your wife from self destructive behavior - and chose not to.

She had a chance to save your kids from a broken home - and chose not to. In retrospect, your wife should be pissed as hell over this woman's failure to not just be a friend but to protect the kids.

A true friend encourages you to be the best version of yourself. This 'friend' failed. She was not a friend in any meaningful sense of the word.

IMO it's time for you and your wife to inform the woman that she is not welcome (and why).

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 10:44 PM, Friday, August 6th]

I am not going to try to control my wife’s friends.

The concept of controlling your wife does not apply here.

NC is a consequence (collateral damage) from your wife's affair. Your wife did this to herself.

IMO you should be drawing a hard line in the sand - and going nuclear over the suggestion that your wife will even speak to this POS.

You went through a special kind of hell with the janitor tormenting you/gloating (every day for a year) over fucking your wife in his pick up truck. Specially, I recall he just drove her to a secluded place on his farm and she had sex in the pickup truck.

I'm surprised that your wife would do this to you. It's not evidence that she fully understands the life long trauma her betrayal (including her acting like a farm animal) caused you.

Robert22205https Yup, that’s pretty much how it went. Wasn’t on his wood lot like I thought, it was on the back roads. Gave him head there too while I was at home cooking her and the kids supper (it was a carbonara, one of my wife’s favourites. I don’t make it anymore). All in his truck. Makes it more scuzzy. I’ve seen those mind movies and felt that pain. It was hard, but I’m on the other side of that. I get where you are coming from and you’re not off base. A part of me thinks I should be far more pissed that she is going to see her. It is certainly triggering. I am not interested in doing anything, and, to be honest, my wife’s choices are hers. She absolutely knows how I feel.

Aletheia I get what you’re saying. Friends are there to talk us down from the ledge, not push us over. I was lucky. The people I went too were pretty even footed, but certainly supportive of my position. We talked this afternoon. I’ll get into it below. But in the convo (no fighting at all) I asked why she only told this friend. She said because this friend wouldn’t judge her. It kind of fits the personality type.

Thank you all. I’ve found this to be a quite positive and helpful experience. A lot of very constructive criticism here, and I thank you for sharing your experiences and views. They’ve all helped. We talked tonight and it went very well. I was a little stunned to be honest. I was expecting more of a fight. We started talking about plans for the next week, and she brought up taking the kids for a hike with the friend. I looked at her and said “I am not ok with that now. It’s already a trigger for me and right now, she is not a friend of our family. She’s your friend, but it starts and stops there.” I then told her that I don’t see it as irreparable. I kind of went towards what Seeking2Forgive and OwningItNow were saying (you guys… thank you). I told my W I felt it was up to her to explain why her words were cruel and hurtful to her friend. I then asked if she thought they were, and my W said most definitely.

So I guess that conversation might happen. I guess the friend might apologize and hopefully grow. I guess I might be in the process of burying a hatchet I never expected to bury.

Thank you all. None of you know me, but you’ve helped me. Thank you.I feel good about the situation. I’ll be back and let you know whether or not peace has been made. Forgiving a wrong doesn’t feel bad.

[This message edited by HardRain at 10:20 PM, August 6th (Friday)]

Can I ask you, what does your wife say about her A and the abuse you took from the scummy janitor because of the choice she made?

Does she actively acknowledge the pain she caused you? How does she see herself back then and does she express how your pain affects her?

How does she see herself and who she was to go do the things she did in his truck?

Finally how does she see you as a person. She’s damn lucky to still have you in her life. Do you think she knows that?

Stevesn We don’t really talk about the actual A much anymore. We/I beat that horse to death a while ago. The aftermath of her A is something she knows is still a little raw for me, and the feelings are at times worse due to the environmental factors Bigger mentioned in an earlier post. She is getting to the point where she can read the situation and give me what I need, be it space, love, support, or a beer. She often says she wishes she had been stronger in that year and not such an incredible coward. When times get hard and I trigger, there is a physical reaction, I know this is cliche, but the wind is taken from her sails. She sort of looks hollow. It then generally goes one of two ways: a shame spiral or complete support. The shame spiral is selfish. It doesn’t help me or our situation. These are becoming more and more infrequent but do still happen. She will regularly say how cruel she was to do what she did to the person who loves her the most and who she loves the most (even though she doesn’t say she’s talking about me, I choose to believe she is).

I think the issues I was having on the friend topic relates to the main problems I still face in processing the A and the following year. I find it easy to believe my W will never be able to have my back, to defend me and our relationship when challenged. We’ve become quite united when it comes to our kids, and logic would say that unison will extend to our family unit, but I find I am still doubting.

[This message edited by HardRain at 11:17 AM, August 7th (Saturday)]

I would doubt too. To my mind, her truly owning her actions means going nc with ap as well as going nc with anyone who supported or condoned the A. Just mho, but the fact that she has kept this toxic "friend" (sarcastic air quotes) doesn't really display an attitude of wanting to do whatever it takes to fix things.

Your gut is talking to you about this. The trick is filtering out all the noise around it. I think you are well within your rights as a BH to tell her she needs to dump this friend. Her staying in contact with someone like that isn't much different than her still talking to the ap.

Just my 0.02.