SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

As long as you've lurked I'm sure you've read it many times. It takes two to R.

I don't know how a WS can ever be a safe partner if they're not driven to understand how they could have done such a terrible thing to a loved one. If they haven't identified the cause, faced it, and corrected it, they're just a time-bomb waiting to cheat again.

That fact that she wasn't open to IC but suggested a video series makes me wonder if she knows that she needs help figuring this out but doesn't want to face the shame of talking about it with someone. She absolutely should be doing more of the work herself. That should have happened years ago. But it's also important for you to let her know that you see those steps. You have to communicate if you want R.

Ask her to watch the next video. Tell her that you appreciate that she's trying something and then spell it out to her that you expect her to take the initiative on watching the videos and that you need her to follow through. You don't have to agree with everything in it. People have different communications styles. Maybe your WS heard one of those asinine analogies and it really rang true for her. Talk about it.

At some point if the videos are at all worthwhile the topic of IC will come up. Unless they're miracle videos and she can tell you exactly what led her to cheat and how she can be sure it won't happen again, that should be your cue to encourage her to go into IC to figure it all out. Communicate!

I'm afraid that your own feelings about therapy are not helpful in this process. I get it. There are a lot of therapists out there doing a lot of damage. Some of them should have big warning labels about blameshifting and enabling on their foreheads. Try to find a therapist specializing in infidelity. Ideally one who recognizes the trauma that it creates and handles it accordingly.

I'm sorry that you're this far down the road with so little progress. You can be happy again whatever you choose.

I don't know how a WS can ever be a safe partner if they're not driven to understand how they could have done such a terrible thing to a loved one. If they haven't identified the cause, faced it, and corrected it, they're just a time-bomb waiting to cheat again.

Truer words...

The problem is, I don't' know if that level of support she can muster is enough for me to really forgive and move on.

Very understandable. With time, comes clarity.

I would say this---You believe that the current trajectory that you are on will not be marriage-sustaining. If you aren't really looking to divorce, then why not take the risk to try and change it? Why not tell your wife exactly what you are feeling?

She may take offense; she may break down and cry; she may do nothing. But what she will have, are the words directly from your mouth telling her that what you have received, and are currently receiving, will not be enough to save the marriage. She will have your honest opinion of where the marriage sits today. I personally would tell her exactly what you have said here--that you believe that she may be as remorseful as her capabilities allow, and you don't think that she has enough to get you through this. I'd say it more as being my personal observation as opposed to an insult.

Then observe what she can/can't/will/won't do to show her commitment. If she does just what you expect, are you any worse off? But what if she does exceed your expectations?

This^^^^^^^^! I agree with this one hundred percent. Great advice.

Just want to chime in with a different perspective on an IC. If you can find someone who represents they 'specialize' in infidelity, be VERY clear about what that actually means (eg what training). AND be sure to have your own list of questions with your perspectives about what that should look like FOR YOU.

I say this bc I spent about 2 years with an IC who said they "specialize" in infidelity and while she did do SOME good, it was outweighed by the bad. I believe the reason is bc while she may have had infidelity experience - she was ground zero on TRAUMA. And IMHO, it's the TRAUMA that is what holds us back on the healing front. I've seen 5 (at least - maybe forgetting someone) IC since my dday 4 yrs ago. Of all of them, the two that were the MOST helpful in moving me and my healing forward, were strictly trauma IC (and I'd still be seeing the 1st one had she not retired; I continue to see the 2nd one today).

So, I recommend finding someone with SOLID trauma experience and training. It's only been the last 10-15 yrs that trauma was required coursework for someone who wants to do clinical therapy - something to consider. My 1st trauma IC was older but excellent, bc she'd devoted her entire 30+yr practice to TRAUMA and not a bunch of other stuff (IOW her list of specialties was all about trauma - the list was not padded with a ton of other stuff, eg depression, anxiety, ADD/ADHD, etc). I found that in the RARE instances when my either of my solid trauma ICs didn't quite grasp something about the infidelity, I could help explain/fill in any nuance needed.

That's just my experience. I don't think there is ANY standard for what constitutes specializing in infidelity - or trauma for that matter. I just found that the key FOR ME to move to healing was really all "about" the trauma of dday (and past trauma too).

I also agree with jb3199 - to tell your WS what is going on and what you need. Not as part of an argument, but as a peace summit, so to speak. Alas, while I've done that with my WH, he is not able/willing/whatever to step up and make the changes I NEED to remain our M. I'm in a VERY similar boat to you on this front. We are good companions, have a long history together, compatible in a TON of ways.
And while honesty, self-awareness/reflection, empathy, and monogamy are no longer on our "shared" list of values, many do remain. The thing is, those values that dropped off due to his cheating, turn out to be CORE values for me... things I really NEED in a relationship (and for ~25 years THOUGHT I had). I say this bc I think it's helpful for a BS to start thinking about what life looks like for them if the WS can't get there. And it may be that a good IC can help you navigate things if your WS just can't get back to the things YOU need to stay.

Godspeed.

Hey DaysGoneBy.

Tell me, do they still work with each other? Have they had any legit work reasons to see each other or communicate?

I couldn’t find it in your posts.

I’ll send other thoughts in another post.

Thanks

Hello DGB.

I'm going to make a few guesses, based on the assumption that you are close in age to your WW. She (and thus you) were mid-30's at Dday 5 years ago, meaning early 40's now. Your daughter was 7 then, meaning she's probably now on the threshold of high school.

I think you know from lurking here that your marriage is not in any version of actual Reconciliation as it is generally described here. There are so many things she hasn't done, or has omitted doing, or simply hasn't even contemplated. It seems clear that what is on offer from her is what you have. A lifetime of détente.

There is a phase of infidelity recovery often described as the "plane of lethal flatness". This phase arrives after the roller coaster of conflicting and wildly vacillating emotions after Dday, after the anger has ceased boiling and has reduced to a slow steam of resentment. Usually about 2 years out, plus or minus. It's that point where the BH lifts his head and looks down the road forward, and it occurs to him that, for the rest of his days, as far as he can see, the reality of his WW’s A will be a permanent Plus One in the marriage. It never goes away. Sort of a dull throbbing headache forever lurking just behind the eyes.

As an aside, this is one of the several reasons that the strong recommendation for R is complete, detailed disclosure by the WW, coupled with free and open discussion of it as often and as prolonged as the BH wishes. If you have to live with the Devil, it's best to get to know it intimately.

But I digress. It's clear that isn't going to happen in your marriage. Betrayeds tend to initiate D at various common nodes. Some betrayeds initiate D right away, as soon as the A is discovered. Some wait until the wild, passionate emotions subside and then, when they glimpse the POLF, they decide to D. However, many white knuckle it and soldier along. That’s you, out in the burning sun in the middle of the Mojave, staggering along, dogged determination or stubborn force of will or just habit, maybe a combination of all three. That's the 5-year mark.

Many remain married for life under these circumstances, even knowing they will never get the truth, never get 100% both feet all-in commitment to R from their WW. There are a lot of reasons. Sunk time. The kiddo. In your case, you describe points of light, small oases in the desert: some decent sex (though is Sir Topham Hat enjoying frequent trips to Tonsil Town?), some laughs, steady housekeeping. To me it sounds like a species of Stockholm Syndrome – often, for a BS, the years of marriage following Dday are a species of that – though maybe it’s enough for you.

There is a thing I call that "ephemeral matter of the heart". Over and over we see betrayed spouses bemoaning the reality (or the perception) that they aren’t getting what the AP got in terms of passion, attention, generosity, sexual brio. There is a logical explanation for this, which is proffered by a poster above, but logic does not necessarily dictate the heart’s desires. As a steady good provider and generous companion, you absolutely deserve what the AP got, in the sense of "deserve" as a function of cosmic debit/credit.

As you know, there are plenty of posters who decided to D around the 5-year milestone. It’s another common node, for precisely the reasons discussed in this thread. It’s why I think you found yourself surfing the internet about affair recovery, finding this place, creating an account, and posting your cri du coeur.

Here’s my 2 cents. You’re at the place where the adage about "keep doing what you’re doing/keep getting what you’re getting" clearly applies. What you’ve got is what you’re gonna get. Is that enough? Early 40’s is plenty of time to start over. If you’re gonna split the household and become a co-parent to your daughter, pre-high school is a better time to do that than either mid-high school or, worst, ages 18-22. If you split now, you could even strategically plan the household location to get her into the high school of choice (if you reside in a metro with multiple school districts).

With that in mind, I’d like you to look in the mirror and have a conversation with DGB at age 45. Age 50. Age 55. Will that DGB thank the present-day DGB for choosing, yet another day, to not take steps to end the marriage? Will the future DGB look back over the past 5 or 10 years and thank the present DGB for his decisive action? Every day you make a choice, my friend. At the end of that day, the choice for the day is irrevocable and irrecoverable. Will future you be happy that present you has chosen to give those days to this level of married life?

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 7:12 PM, Thursday, January 20th]

Lots of great insight here. I appreciate everyone taking the time to respond.

She works with me now running our business. We were closing on it shortly after Dday; in hindsight, probably should've pulled the plug, but we were under contract with a substantial deposit to be lost. She worked exactly 3 more days after Dday1 at the gym. Ap was never there except for one time on the last day. He walked past her with her head down and she said he wouldn't make eye contact with her. I would ask her if she ever thought about him, and she would say "I sometimes wonder if he's suffering with the consequences like I am." In hindsight, I think that's a deeply telling statement about her mentality regarding the affair.

She never once reached out to him as far as I am aware. Is it possible? Sure. I doubt it though; this jackass was looking for an easy lay with no strings. One of the texts that sticks out in my head was him telling her "You said you weren't looking for the chaos, just a quiet run here and there". ("Run was code for sex"). That one text is part of what keeps me...stuck? I guess. It seems pretty obvious that she was looking for sex. If you go out looking for filet, and you get served a cube steak, you're going to send it back. Not settle. If he was such a poor lover....you see where I am going here.

She called him after I confronted her to tell him it was over. That I found out and that she was going to come clean about the affair (well, you know, other than TT and DDay2..). He apparently said his life was ruined now and his wife was going to kill him. I called him, he begged me not to tell his wife, and the second time I felt joy on DDay was replying, "I already did."

She did seem absolutely horrified about what she had done. I would say her "fog", if even present, lasted 15 minutes. She never blamed me for the affair, she does apologize profusely when we do discuss things. I think, however, what I'm seeing is all I can get- she will not do any deep self reflection other than saying she was lonely, felt like a broken person, relished the attention she was getting, felt alive again, etc. On DDay1, I told her she needed to call OBS, if they would take the call, and fall on the fucking sword for nuking two families. OBS told me via text that was ok, so she did. I was surprised she had the guts and basic decency to do that. I was equally surprised that OBS was receptive to it, but then again, it wasn't her first time on the infidelity rodeo.

She has expressed that from the beginning as to her why's. In my mind, she's only scratching the surface- and she's too afraid to dig deeper. I think she knows IC would help her have a better understanding of her demons, but she doesn't have the will to try and face them.

I agree with the advice of not necessarily giving up but laying out what I need from her. If I'm honest with myself, though, I need to work up the energy to care enough to have that conversation. Insert "It'sallsotiresome.jpeg". Right now, I just literally can't be bothered. I think I may have hit a temporary (or not) IDGAF stage.

DGB

I am very sorry to hear what you are going through. You seem to be an intelligent, strong, and sensitive man.
As BH myself, I can relate to your feelings.
I want REALLY to W.
I love my WW so damn much, and she is doing incredible work in R.
In my attempt to R, I try to align my approach to oldwounds and sisoon. There is power and truth in their words. However, despite my desire, I find myself more and more aligned with Thumos's perspective.

Your story makes me realize even more that you cannot "fix" or "heal" from betrayal and infidelity.
It's the ultimate offense, second (perhaps, I am. not even convinced of this) to a murderer. You don't heal; you only accept it, actually, SWALLOW.
It is clear that it never goes away; it always lurks and whispers.
What a horrible and reckless act of destruction.

Your story really resonates with me. I see myself in your path.
I want to ask you, why did/do you stay? For the children?
What would you do if you could go back to 1 year past Dday?

I am turning 40 this year. We have no children, no significant properties or assets.
It is worth to keep fighting and then finding myself four years from now with still a broken soul?

"You said you weren't looking for the chaos, just a quiet run here and there". ("Run was code for sex"). That one text is part of what keeps me...stuck? I guess. It seems pretty obvious that she was looking for sex. If you go out looking for filet, and you get served a cube steak, you're going to send it back. Not settle. If he was such a poor lover....you see where I am going here.

There have been some long threads about this concept. It is common for waywards to minimize, and one way they do this is to try to describe the affair sex as poor quality sex. My own belief is that if the A was a drunken ONS or such, it's possible that the sex was poor quality sex. But if the WW returns repeatedly for sex, and specifically for sex, over a period of time, the sex was good. Your WW's messages corroborate this. Keep in mind that the biggest sex organ lies between the ears. If your mind/imagination/libido perceives the sex as thrilling, hot, forbidden fruit, etc., then the sex is good sex. Period.

Hence my comment about how a lot of BS's feel, among other things, a persistent sense of "I deserve what AP got."

So to be perfectly frank, if I could do it all over again, with the obvious caveat being that I wish none of this had happened...I would have divorced immediately. There's a shit ton of hopium to be smoke in the early days of recovery, and some days, it's pretty good stuff. But, like all drugs, when it wears off all you're left with is the realization you may be chasing a pipe dream with YOUR ws. Honestly, now, almost 5 years later, and I couldn't accurately describe where my feelings are toward her. It's like watching a one legged kid run against 2 legged competitors- you sincerely applaud their effort, you feel for them, you are proud of them for putting themselves out there...but...they're gonna lose the race. Maybe not right at the starting line, but after 30 yards it's pretty clear what the outcome will be. That may or may not be a great analogy. I apologize if that offends anyone.

I think one of the most insidious things I've encountered after Dday is the signs of caring, of nurturing, of attempting to do the right thing...as the BS you feel that they just really can't measure up. Or are they even doing enough? I think that's why it is so difficult to just pull the plug. You keep seeing signs that the person you love is in there. And yet again, I think some BS's feel that it's there responsibility to stay and try and pull the WS' head out of the mud. Or ass. I know that's what I have done, looking back. I would cling on to the signs that she cares- she does, I know that- but is it enough in light of the affair? Million dollar question right there.

I've also decided to attempt to find a trauma specialist. I have been through some shit. I have seen some things that should give me nightmares. I'll leave it at being shot at, stabbed etc.

I never once felt that I needed help processing life experiences- until now. It's a humbling realization that you can't do it alone. Although, part of me feels that I can just eject and stop worrying about helping her heal herself.

What I really want, what I think ALL BS's want, is just the truth. In my opinion, I could heal...if she was being completely honest. The problem is, I have no way to know if she's being truthful or placating my wounded ego. If she just had the guts to admit what the affair was really all about...then I could know what I am fighting against, and fighting for. And I could decide if it's even worth fighting at all.

There's been great replies. Really wish I could quote. I hope I am not leaving anyone's questions unanswered, nor am I avoiding any questions asked. It's beer thirty.

ETA: Butforthegrace nailed it. I was 38, she was 36. 43 and 41 now respectively.

[This message edited by DaysGoneBy at 10:04 PM, Thursday, January 20th]

What I really want, what I think ALL BS's want, is just the truth. In my opinion, I could heal...if she was being completely honest. The problem is, I have no way to know if she's being truthful or placating my wounded ego. If she just had the guts to admit what the affair was really all about...then I could know what I am fighting against, and fighting for. And I could decide if it's even worth fighting at all.

It is often said here that what a WW does after Dday can be almost as impactful, or even moreso, to the success/failure of R than what the WW did during the depth of the A. There is a famous WW who posts here. Her A went on for months, was highly sexual, etc. Her BH found out via happenstance. As awful of a train wreck of any thread on her. But after Dday, almost instinctively, she was bluntly and brutally honest with her BH, to the level of locker-room blunt. It was tough for him to hear, but the blunt honesty eliminated any nagging doubt and, quite frankly, it resonated with a certain degree of respect for the BH, a recognition that he deserves to know and own his truth and make his decisions in the light of the truth. That couple has reconciled.

There have been other threads with much more "minor" degrees of cheating, followed by a long period of stubborn, persistent gaslighting, lying, DARVO, minimizing, etc. Many of those couples end up divorcing.

The heart knows what it knows. Is this wife and this marriage the wife and marriage you'll think back fondly on when you're 75?

So to be perfectly frank, if I could do it all over again, with the obvious caveat being that I wish none of this had happened...I would have divorced immediately.

Life doesn't give Mulligans. But you still own your future. As I said above, each day you decide to remain married, or to leave it. The 5-year mark is a common node for a betrayed spouse. By 5 years, you have a decent sense of what you're going to get in the marriage going forward.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 10:57 PM, Thursday, January 20th]

DaysGoneBy

Thank you for your honest and articulate answer.

You gave me a lot to think about.

I wish you what I always wished myself since this horrible alternative reality state. I wish you to find the clarity that you seek, and the strength to act upon it.

[This message edited by alucard at 10:38 PM, Thursday, January 20th]

What I really want, what I think ALL BS's want, is just the truth. In my opinion, I could heal...if she was being completely honest. The problem is, I have no way to know if she's being truthful or placating my wounded ego. If she just had the guts to admit what the affair was really all about...then I could know what I am fighting against, and fighting for. And I could decide if it's even worth fighting at all.

I'll tell you the truth that you don't want to hear.
The affair was about the excitement, the seductions, about feeling alive, new, chased, sexy.
It was about playing a character, a new persona that she cannot play in your marriage.
It was about sex, a lot of it. Wilder, better, more liberating. She wanted it. She wanted him. she chased him. She HAD to stop once you found it.
It was about scrolling off her shoulders whatever problems your married life had. It was about the illusion of being free.
It was about her. It was selfish.
This is true for your WW, mine, and any other WS.
There will always be reasons: problems in the marriage, lack of intimacy, attention, whatever they can say. B
ut the truth is what I just wrote.

Of course, after realizing the destructive nature of the act most (some) WS wake up. I'm sure your wife loves and cares about you. So does mine. She is amazing, and yet, after crossing that line, there's no going back. We Bs (BH) will never fully heal and accept that our wives have been with someone else. I know I never will. And it seems to me that you never will either. And my personal opinion is that NOBODY TRULY DOES. We are just swallowing it, at an incredible expensive cost, which is our souls.

There have been other threads with much more "minor" degrees of cheating, followed by a long period of stubborn, persistent gaslighting, lying, DARVO, minimizing, etc. Many of those couples end up divorcing.

And this right here describes my circumstances to a T. The betrayal I experienced doesn't even nearly rise to the level of heinous that many of you have endured. Yet, her defiance and hubris in the aftermath was what I ultimately couldn't countenance.

In my opinion, I could heal...if she was being completely honest. The problem is, I have no way to know if she's being truthful or placating my wounded ego. If she just had the guts to admit what the affair was really all about...then I could know what I am fighting against, and fighting for. And I could decide if it's even worth fighting at all.

Thing is, you can heal YOU. You cannot heal the M, especially if the WW is not a willing partner.

So far, her actions to date have not shown herself to be invested in the healing of the M, by taking actions (not saying words) to prove to you that she is making herself safe for you.

You ask her to do something (read articles/books, or watch a video clip), and she drags her feet to do it. Not because she wants to help everyone (this includes your daughter in a related sense, as a healthy M will help make a child healthy also), but because you told her to. She is still very invested in HERSELF, and not the family.

She is probably comfortable knowing that you will not leave, as all you have been doing is talking, with little actions on that front. Yes, you chased her little friend away, but what other consequences had she had? Okay, she has quit her job and is now working for the Police (you), and now possibly harbours some resentment that you made her do it. Poor little me... and you entertain this, as you do not take any action (i.e. no consequences).

So, she has done nothing of great value to contribute to any form of R.
- No IC.
- No STD test.
- No long term (and consistent) actions to make herself safe for you and your daughter.

Have you ever enforced any boundary that was set (did you set any boundaries in the first place)? If not, you are actually enabling her behaviour.

Has she ever given you a written timeline? If not, it may be a good time to make her sit down and come up with one. This makes the A tangible. It gives it a physical form, and hence becomes real, and not just a memory (which can also be passed off as a fantasy she had). Handwritten is best (IMO), as the action of using pen to paper makes things more 'intimate', more 'real'.

You dictate the level of depth for the timeline (G, PG, or R), or you can request (not demand) for two. One PG rated, and another R rated (if you are not ready to dive straight into the down and dirty stuff) for you to read at a later date.

Her reaction to this task can give you an indication on how invested she is in trying to save the M, and try and win a chance at R. Dragging her feet or giving a half-hearted document, will indicate how much she values you and the M.

You do not have to d right away, you do need to stand up for yourself, your family and marriage. That is where so many fall short and fail to recover.

Healing from an affair is two to five years. It is two to five years from the last lie.

Time to stand up for yourself and tell your wife no more lies. See an attorney, time to step up.

Polygraphs are notoriously unreliable (past career had me intimately involved with polygraph and the art/science behind it. I'm not knocking anyone for using this tool, but...if someone knows how to lie, and can do so without skipping a beat...the polygraph will not work.)

Polygraphs are not infallible but are widely used by the FBI, CIA, big corporations and many other entities for a reason, I would personally put more weight on the poly results than the words of proven liar at any day (all cheaters are proven liars), however despite their accuracy rate (multiple studies show over 85% accurate), polygraphs often cause the infamous "parking lot confession", the prospect of that alone would be worth it and yes we've "seen it" happen here on SI and other forums many times over the years, and whether she passes the poly with flying colors or not, at least you can cross that out the list knowing you did everything you could to try to get the truth, and then could try to focus on something else. Before the polygraph make sure she writes a complete and detailed timeline of the A, tell her it would be subject to a polygraph and that the M hangs in the balance, after that demands she reads it out loud (could help with remorse). Don't forget to tell her to get tested for STDs, tell her she's got 1 hour to set up the appointment, the walk of shame to the doctors office also helps with remorse, finally she should apologize at least to both sets of parents if alive for her huge betrayal.

That being said, if you really think this was/is a deal-breaker for you, and based on what you posted I think it may be, just be honest with her and tell her you want to D.

Did you ever try a separation?

You might consider carefully laying out what you think you need from her. Maybe you have before, but do it again, in writing. But you need to add something that tells her you are different this time. I think a separation might do it. Even short term, leaving for a week or two, suddenly while at the same time giving her your needs clearly identified.

This would signal to her you are thinking of leaving. She would feel it. And you would get some space to consider what it might be like to D. Two weeks might turn into more, depending on what you learn about her and yourself.

DaysGoneBy

A simple yet completely complex question you need to answer is just this:

Is it enough?

You’ve described in depth some of the many things she is doing to rebuild. But you e also described what she is not (no IC, no STD test, no initiating discussion)

So you’re the one how has to decide if you can live with what she HAS done to recover with you. Is it enough for you to stay and try to rebuild with her.

Or is it not.

Once you decide that we can help you figure out how to communicate that to her. Perhaps it will resonate enough with her when you tell Her that she amps up what she is doing.

But if not, and if it’s not enough, with no change on the horizon, you’ll have to be willing to walk away.

Are you?