SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

After nearly 5 years of lurking, I decided to finally tell my story and seek input from this amazing community. This is going to most lilkey be very long, and somewhat disjointed; I apologize in advance. Thank you to anyone who manages to read through this, and taking your time to respond. I apologize for any parts that are TMI, and I hope I don’t trigger anyone with my post.

Almost 5 years ago (02.15.17 to be exact), I caught my wife having an affair with a coworker. A married, guy who was 52 to her 36. I found his name under a different contact on her old phone (she had changed the passcode on her new one) and was able to recover enough evidence to confront. She came home for lunch that day, and I calmly asked her if she was having an affair with her coworker. Of course, she immediately lied and said I was crazy, until I asked her a specific question that I only could have known if I knew. She then said that yes, she was. I called the OM’s wife to tell her immediately- literally took me 15 seconds on Google to find her- and informed her what I had just found out. She said she wasn’t surprised, and had suspected that they were having an affair because—I sh!t you not…my wife was the spitting image of the last woman her husband had an affair with. My next call was to the AP. Apparently, he fled work, literally fled and left, and told his bosses that I was coming to kill him. He disappeared like a rat and dropped my wife like the side piece she was. I calmed down and didn’t do anything rash, thank God.

My wife was furious that I called her. She gave me a death stare; eyes narrowed etc. She asked what we discussed, and I told her that apparently her special bro was actually a player, and she looked just like the last affair partner he had. Her jaw hit the floor. I honestly relished the look on her face because it felt like such a small victory at the time. I told her congrats and said some choice words about a potential occupation she may wish to explore.

She told on Dday 1 that they had sex twice. Used a condom, in the car. That sounded about as truthful as the old "I only had two beers ossifcer" that drunks give when popped for DUIs. Come to find out a month later, after poking holes in the initial "version" of the truth, that whoops, it was actually about 12 times they had sex, made out too many times to count, and generally hooked up whenever possible. This all occurred either at work when they could, or in his car, or in parking lots, or in our condo that we own that is fairly close by. I was even graced by the knowledge that apparently, they had one cyber session in our master bathroom, while I was home working. That bathroom still makes my stomach turn. Come to find out that she claims he couldn’t perform, couldn’t get hard, and didn’t last. Oh, and they decided to ditch the condoms after the first encounter…because she believed him that he’d only been with his wife for the past two decades.

I was then told that out of all these encounters, she only had two orgasms. Once from digital stimulation and once from sex. Well, three, I guess, if you count the masturbatory session in the bathroom. To this day she swears this up and down. I think she’s full of it and is minimizing to protect herself. She also introduced oral into the affair- claimed it was only once. We haven’t done that in….years, due to CSA from her uncle. Amazing how that suddenly wasn’t an issue in the affair. She said they were fooling around in a park on the ground, and she decided to see if she could just "get past" her fear of oral. No, I don’t buy that either, nor the "only one bj" story. I don’t have hygiene issues either; I won’t turn heads in a room but I’ve got my physical self put together nicely. Always have.

Part of what I continue to struggle with is the depths of…sickness that these people engaged in. I would be at her work most days (she was a trainer, and I worked out there). I could not believe that she, and he, had the audacity to strike up an affair literally right under my nose. When I met this guy, I didn’t trust him. Kept it to myself, but kept an eye on her texts to him. Initially, he was under his name. I guess that changed when the affair actually started. I saw that he was texting her all the time, all about work stuff. But he was talking to her like she was one of the guys. Sexual hypotheticals about people in the gym, etc. I confronted her, told her I didn’t like the tone of the texts, and was going to go to the gym and square him away. She begged me not to, insisted that she didn’t like him (lol) and that she would tell him to stick to work related stuff only. I trusted her.

He started trying to befriend me at the gym. I still, at this time, had my suspicions, but had no proof (I could account for her time, or so I thought). It never occurred to me that they would leave work for lunch for quickies. I just didn’t see that coming. So, I tried to be cordial. He would spot me on occasion, too. This would have been well after the affair started in November. I asked her why she would let him do that..spot me, talk to me etc...she said she mentioned it to him and told him to stop. My suspicion is they both enjoyed the wool they had pulled over my eyes and it was as close to knifepoint as they could get.

Around December, after about a month of the affair being in full swing, my wife mentions that she, another trainer, and this guy want to do a nighttime training class. I was on board because there was going to be someone else present. I figured it was more proof for me that there couldn’t be anything going on, because how could there be? Well, the other trainer backed out, my heart sank, and I knew what she was going to ask next. She asked me if I was ok with her doing the class with the AP. I told her I was fine with it because she knew I didn’t like him, nor trust him, and I just didn’t think that she could actually be so evil and cold. I told her that she knew I wasn’t comfortable with him, but I would support this class if she felt it would help advance her career.

So they would text all day, even at work, being five feet apart. They developed their own code language to communicate how horny they were and needed to be with each other. Unfortunately for me, I cracked the code. She was sexting him more than she had done with me in our entire relationship.

Around mid-December, we get invited to go to the Christmas party for her work. Of course, this guy and his wife are there. I still just have an uneasy feeling, and nothing concrete to fall on. We all make small talk, but one thing sticks out at me to this day- his wife had the 1,000 yard stare. Her eyes were sunken, and she looked empty and hollow. Heavily medicated would be a more apt description. I still can’t believe my wife wanted to go to the party, with me. To me, it seems especially evil that you would intentionally put your spouse n the presence of the AP, in what I can only describe as a move so bold it defies logic. She said it’s because they (WW/AP) didn’t want the spouses to get suspicious so they decided we should all go. How very nice of them.

She also introduced him to our only child, who was 7 at the time. I have a hard time forgiving that as well. Seeing as how I’m adopted; my child is my only known blood relative on this planet. She means everything to me, and I am angry that I’ve lost some good memories with her because sometimes, I’m just sad and didn’t want to play at the time.
I can’t believe that she had an affair basically right in front of my eyes. This has been the most humiliating, degrading thing I’ve ever experienced. I trusted her completely, which is why I did not take more decisive action at the time. I also did not want to appear to be controlling. Newsflash: go with your gut, until it proves you can’t.
Anyway, my parents worked out there as well. So they were blessed with meeting this prick and conversing with him on occasion. I never told them about the affair. My dad is suffering from dementia, and my mom is just a mentally unstable person.
Following Dday, she went NC immediately. Dropped him like a hot rock. We had many nights of long talks. Read a couple books at the onset. She briefly would browse the internet and read some articles. She would answer questions, and still does, when I have them. I am not concerned that she would cheat again- I frankly don’t care, nor am I going to play marriage police; it’s too mentally draining.

However, there are plenty of things that make me question if she is regretful or remorseful. She would not take a STD test after the affair. I had to go take one. She said she was scared "and didn’t think that she needed to". Even after she found out that he had screwed around on his wife before. She stopped reading anything infidelity related; if I read something and wanted to share it, she would read it eventually. She never went to IC, never made an attempt, and thinks we can just kind of power through this on our own. I own my failure in not seeking IC, and that’s mainly because of my negative view of therapists. That’s my fault.

We had a big blowout last weekend. I told her I was sick and tired of feeling like I am driving the recovery and that I needed to see actions from her. I told her that something needs to change, and quickly, because I’m tired. I’m worn out, and I am sick of feeling like I am fighting this alone. I told her I think we should start figuring out how to divorce.
She had signed us up for an internet counseling course (I was comfortable with that) back in April of 2021. She decided after that argument last weekend, that we really need to start it this time and dive into the course. So, we did. We watched 45 minutes of the initial course. I wasn’t impressed- therapist calling cheating a mistake, using stupid, asinine analogies- I was disgusted. She wanted to watch these videos every night before we started watching our other shows; we haven’t done it since the initial time we watched the video. Yes, I could have brought it up, maybe she just forgot…. but that’s not my responsibility, and I wanted to see if she actually does view this as important for recovery.

She promised that every Saturday we would spend time in the evening going over anything we wanted, affair or relationship related. I waited to see if she would initiate the conversation this past Saturday. Crickets.
She is a great mom, a hard worker, and she’s giving me all she’s capable of, I think. I just don’t know if it is enough. I wish I could just get her to be honest about all the sex stuff so that I could at least have a level playing field to start from; I can’t shake the feeling that she is just continuing to lie to "protect" me (read: herself). I don’t believe for one second that no inappropriate pictures were sent- she readily admits sending him pictures of her with friends, a wedding picture, etc….yet claims they never sent racy pics because that would be "too risky". To say that I don’t believe this, especially given the admittance of the cyberish aspect in the bathroom….I mean…come one. I am insulted she thinks I am that stupid.
I’m a man. I have no female perspective to bounce my thoughts off of (hoping for some insight here), but it just makes zero sense that someone would go have sex with someone else, at the risk of imploding your marriage and life, for only a couple of orgasms, bad sex, and an impotent(ish) AP. I don’t buy that either.

So I don’t know the point of this post. Maybe a cautionary tale. Could definitely use some insight and advice. She’s told her brother and one friend what she did, and that’s it. I haven’t told anyone, other than the people who will read this.
If you got to the bottom of this and respond, thank you. I provide any more details I can. What a mess. Believe it or not, I am actually pretty happy still (with me and life) outside of her affair. I just think the biggest thing holding me back is my perception that she is still lying about the intensity etc of the affair. And I don’t know whether to trust what she says, backed up by her actions to be a good wife, or trust my gut, realize it’s a dealbreaker, always was, and start working to pull the plug.

It is obvious that you have been lurking here for a long time.

I couldn't find anything unreasonable in what you told and what you suspected.

All I can suggest to clear your doubts, which I'm sure won't be surprising to you, would be a detailed timeline of the A and polygraph.

Good luck.

I am sorry to hear you are still struggling with your WW's affair five years later. I did the same for six years until I caught my ex-WW again cheating. A lousy MC helped us reg sweep her first affair. I don't blame you for not wanting to be the marriage police. I made the same decision after my ex-WW's first affair. Unfortunately, If I was more vigilant I could have moved on much more quickly. It was simply so mind-draining, I couldn't do it. I spent so much energy the first time catching her.

Maybe I missed it in your story, but what excuse did your wife give for having the affair? I don't think I ever got a clear reason from my ex-WW.

Five years is a large chunk of time. It seems that you are not close to getting healed. At the five-year mark after my ex-WW's affair, I felt pretty dead inside toward her. I had strong suspicions that she was in the midst of an affair with a very close friend but I just couldn't summon the energy to force the issue. We had a three-year-old at the time. Thankfully, at the six-year mark, I discovered irrefutable evidence that ended the marriage. I felt absolutely liberated! Co-parenting worked out great BTW. But years later, I slapped myself in the face for not pulling the plug much sooner.

From your perspective at the five-year mark, I can certainly understand your reluctance to pull the plug on the marriage. I was in your shoes. I was "blessed" with her continued infidelity to make my decision so easy. But in retrospect many years later, it is obvious that I would never be happy with her after her first affair and I should have ended it then.

That is my experience. I don't know the dynamics of your marriage other than your wife's affair. But, if she hasn't become an awesome partner or is working her rear end off to become that way, don't sentence yourself to such an unfulfilling and painful marriage. Decades down the line you may slap yourself in the face for not moving on.

There have been thousands of similar posts such as

Why won’t the cheater tell the truth?

Why won’t the cheater do more towards reconciliation instead of the bare minimum?

Why is everything swept under the rug?

And on and on.

I didn’t give my H an option. He begged to R and I declined. I planned to D him. But somewhere along the way he started doing things to make amends. And that made a difference.

We reconciled and it’s been 8 years. Initially he tried to hide certain facts for fear if I knew I would D him. I reminded him if I found out later he lied about anything I certainly would D him.

The betrayed have expectations some of the cheaters cannot or will not meet. Whether it’s fear or they don’t care or whatever - you will be left with less than the full truth and some of the things you need to heal.

Question is - are you able to accept that. I was not. I let nothing go. I got the answers to everything I needed. Not 100% of the truth (IMO) but enough.

I’m a man. I have no female perspective to bounce my thoughts off of (hoping for some insight here), but it just makes zero sense that someone would go have sex with someone else, at the risk of imploding your marriage and life, for only a couple of orgasms, bad sex, and an impotent(ish) AP.

It's not his prowess in bed because by the time she had the answer to that she'd already set off the bomb that would have imploded your marriage once you found out. Five years does seem to be a milestone for many BS. It's almost like that's how long most tolerate fighting alone before the resentment becomes just too much. I didn't make five years, but I do remember the major lesson I learned is don't stay in a relationship where I felt I was fighting alone. Believing alone. Personally I'd push for IC for her if she asks what she can do again, because you want her to be as healthy of a mom as possible. I'm not sure it's not too late for you even if she has an epiphany at this point. Five years of little effort is hard to overcome.

Since I can't (or don't know how) to quote, I'll just answer directly.

guvensiz: Polygraphs are notoriously unreliable (past career had me intimately involved with polygraph and the art/science behind it. I'm not knocking anyone for using this tool, but...if someone knows how to lie, and can do so without skipping a beat...the polygraph will not work.) The lack of her ability to write the timeline is starting to really seem like a deal breaker to me. She has the information; she knows what I am asking; she will not do it. Not out of conscious malice, I think, but more because she's afraid to see what a crap person she was during her affair.

src: thanks for sharing your story (briefly). to my knowledge, there haven't been any affairs since. We have always had a a good relationship, and certainly nothing that would explain the need to step outside the marriage to seek whatever it is that these people seek.

the1stWife: thank you for your response. What kinds of things was he doing to make amends?

DaysGoneBy,

If you have been lurking for 5 years, you know the three main sins of a WS attempting R. Minimization, blameshifting, and rugsweeping. I sometimes throw in a fourth "catastrophizing" which in other contexts has been used to minimize and blameshift, but here I mean the WS saying something along the lines of, "No matter what I do, it will never be enough!" This may or may not be true, but importantly, is usually delivered after the WS has done some fraction of work after being asked to move a mountain.

"I tried to get us to start watching an interactive video series and you didn't like it!"

Just an example...

Anyway, based on your story you are at the very least quite worried about minimization and are at least a tacit participant is rugsweeping (other than blowing her out of the water on DDay, good move there).

Each of us has our own limit on what we can tolerate, and it appears you have let yourself get worn to the bone carrying this burden alone. She is doing nothing to make you feel safe, and it seems you have done very little for yourself to deal with your anxiety. More of a bottle it up and ignore it method. You've basically had no emotional support in real life. It doesn't seem like you were able to really open up to your close friends about it much. I do think you should go see an individual therapist even if you think it's "too late now". Find one you click with. It has been very valuable in my healing.

I told her I was sick and tired of feeling like I am driving the recovery and that I needed to see actions from her. I told her that something needs to change, and quickly, because I’m tired. I’m worn out, and I am sick of feeling like I am fighting this alone. I told her I think we should start figuring out how to divorce.

Let me tell you, I had an extremely similar blowout when I asked for a D in writing. Honestly can say that when my wife made a turn for the better. I don't know if that will be the case for you. But you'll need to see actions. In my case, she came back with a written plan of action and took the necessary steps to implement it.

I suspect, though you haven't talked much about blameshifting, that your WW is basically not taking responsibility for her actions. There is no real remorse here. She hasn't owned her actions, made profuse apologies, and attempted to make recompense. More like said, "Yes I cheated on you, and?" If she doesn't have real remorse, if she hasn't tracked her why/how she gave herself permission to cheat, she won't be able to show you she has done the work to make herself a safe partner again.

If you are looking for signs of growth and remorse there are some great articles in the healing library, and DaddyDom's admitting/getting/owning/living it post in the wayward side.

DaysGoneBy:

Here are a few things he did immediately: note: I gave him no suggestions or advice. I was planning to D him. So there was nothing to discuss.

In front of me deleted her contact info on every device and blocked her (his idea)

He became 100% accountable as to where he was. Prior to dday2 he spent 25+ years saying I’ll be home at 10 pm and showing up at 1 am without a call. That pattern of MIA has not occurred in 8 years 😃

He willingly went to therapy on his own

He answered every question I had no matter how often I asked

He did everything he could think of to make me feel like our marriage (and me) were the most important thing. It took years before I started believing it however.

When she contacted him after dday2 — he came to me to show me her email immediately. He was so upset b/c he knew I could have assumed he was still in contact with her and decided to D him. But he did the right thing and showed it to me. He never responded.

He started communicating with me (he was more interested in talking with others than me)

He apologized to my family

I hope this helps you.

If you just throw up your hands, I think D is in your future.

If you think you might still want to R, I recommend figuring out your requirements, aying them out for your W to understand, and ask if she agrees to meet them. If she agrees, R can proceed (assuming you don't change your mind); if she doesn't, you know D is likely to be your best choice.

If you want some guidance on requirements, check out the 'Things every WS needs to know' thread at the top of the WS forum and the Beyond remorse and regret' thread in R. Also, you can get guidance by posting in this thread.

My reco is to think about how you hope your W to change from reading what you recommend. Then ask for the changes specifically. NOT "Just Friends" can be read as a manual for seducing friends and conducting As.

I emphasize asking because R works only if both partners agree to do the necessary work. Both partners are free to say 'nope' - and if your W wants to say that, the sooner you know it the better, IMO

guvensiz: Polygraphs are notoriously unreliable (past career had me intimately involved with polygraph and the art/science behind it. I'm not knocking anyone for using this tool, but...if someone knows how to lie, and can do so without skipping a beat...the polygraph will not work.)

Yes, it is known that it does not give 100% accurate results, but it is said that it still gives highly healthy results in these matters. In addition, the person who will take the polygraph test may feel obliged to confess before the test.

On top of that, given your opinion, getting this test won't make anything worse for you; if she passes the test, you will continue to have the same doubts that she has succeeded in lying, but if she fails, you will be sure that she is lying.

If you worry about her passing the test by lying and using it against you, you can request the result not be reported to her (and act like she failed, if you want her to confess).

You've been tormented by these doubts for 5 years, and it's unclear how long it will go like this. I think it's worth it.

[This message edited by guvensiz at 11:47 PM, Tuesday, January 18th]

You said that you had a great marriage prior to the A. Post A through now you’re dealing with a person who is unrecognizable to you - a selfish, narcissistic wayward only concerned about herself. Totally not unheard of and not out of the norm by the way.

Did she explain to you why she cheated? Did she offer any way to prove she’s telling you the truth other than her word, which as you mentioned doesn’t mean anything,

What you have on your hands in its current form is not a recipe for successful R. You’ve white knuckled it for five years, and maybe you could do five more, but inevitably this M will most likely end in D. You already know it will. If you settle for that’s all she is capable of offering, then deep down you know where this will all end up.

My recommendation, as has been stated already, is to list your non negotiables for R (see 1st wife), and if she’s unable then move to D. However, you must be willing to go through with D and not use it as a negotiating tool. Why waste more years of your life living like this? Your time is worth more.

The betrayed have expectations some of the cheaters cannot or will not meet. Whether it’s fear or they don’t care or whatever - you will be left with less than the full truth and some of the things you need to heal.

This is the essential nut of the issue. I would only amend to say "most cheaters" cannot or will not meet a betrayed spouse's expectations for R, because it is in their essential nature to fail to meet a standard of worthiness. That's why they cheated in the first place, and they bring that deficient toolkit for life, and that twisted worldview, to an R attempt. Much like the frog and the scorpion. The scorpion stings because that's just what the scorpion does.

The wayward spouse demonstrates regret but little or no remorse, drags their feet, demonstrates apathy, blameshifts, minimizes, lies because that's who they are.

Some of them are able to overcome this. Some.

It's pretty obvious your WW has continued to lie and minimize, deflect, drag her feet, demonstrate apathy toward helping you heal and so on. You're getting what you'll continue to get from her. She's not a dumb woman. She is smart enough to figure this out. She just doesn't want to.

That's who you are married to.

I remember reading a stat that suggested R success rates seem to drop precipitously off a cliff after the 5-year mark. Most of the "success" numbers for R seem to be based on short-term surveys a year or two after D-Day.

I surmise that the drop off is because of the deficient toolkit among waywards I mentioned earlier, and because a betrayed spouse's mind has had time to truly regain equilibrium after a longer period of time. True character is revealed under intense pressure. What have the past five years revealed about your wife? About you?

Now you're thinking VERY clearly, you've clawed your way through the haze of pain of the past five years, and you don't like what you see.

I'll say this: The refusal to write a timeline is essentially an act of malice. She knows you want it, she knows it is SOP, and you're not asking for much here. Sit her butt in a chair with pen and paper and write it the fuck down. She won't do that. That's not out of fear of herself.

I would recommend instead of laying out a bunch of steps for her that you do a modified version of Bigger's famous script. In this case, it would be more along the lines of "you'd better step up tout suite and give me a ton of details about how you intend to fix this, IN WRITING, or I'm out." It shouldn't be on your shoulders for you to have to lay out for your intelligent and resourceful wife how she can pull her head out of her ass.

She's fully capable. Don't do that work for her.

[This message edited by Thumos at 3:19 PM, Wednesday, January 19th]

I hate reading stories like this. You are not just dealing with an affair, but basically an assault. This was not just her having sex, it was also her "taking you down a notch" by humiliating you by flaunting the OM in your face, and using your house and bed as a knife in the back.

I get where affairs can happen. I am human, and more than one occasion when I would be propositioned by a really attractive woman the thought crossed my mind to take her up on the offer. I never did it, but I can see where it could happen. If I did however, it would have been for me. My wife would not have factored into the equation.

In these instances the affair was for them, but by bringing the affair partner into your family life it crossed the line form just being for them, but to also hurt and humiliate you. My Ex set up a meeting during her affair for her AP to pitch me a business idea. This guy sat across from me and pitched me an idea that my interns could have seen was flawed. I spent an hour with him going over his plan. My Ex said afterwards she was terrified the whole time, but I never saw it. For me this, as well as the fact she was screwing in our house and in our bed, was as bad as the actual sex they had. If they escalated it and brought one of my daughters into the mix, I would have destroyed both of them. She would be living in a refrigerator box on the street instead of a multi million dollar condo.

You have every right to be angry. In fact you don't seem angry enough about this.

Having an affair is a result of that person having a weakness. We all have those however and they can sometimes be forgiven. Rubbing the affair partner int your face is a sign of depravity. Isn't it enough they are having the affair without subjecting their BS to such cruelty? A person who would do this is sick and evil.

I remember reading a stat that suggested R success rates seem to drop precipitously off a cliff after the 5-year mark. Most of the "success" numbers for R seem to be based on short-term surveys a year or two after D-Day.

I am also a member of the 5 year club. Like you almost to the day. I think I tried to white knuckle it for those years. My Ex was beside herself doing everything she could to try to get us back on track. STD tests? those were done in the first few weeks. Beds changed, dealing with me treating her like a piece of furniture, she would have done anything. And still the realization became clear to me that things were never going to be right. I was never going to look at her the same way again. I still loved her, but what she destroyed the marriage. I didn't need to live the rest of my life with someone I had no respect for.

Your WS is basically doing nothing. At this point a poly isn't worth it. You and her both know what she did. I would still get her to do an STD test, and have your kid DNA tested. Not so much that it is needed, but to show her that you are a new guy and will not tolerate her crap. I think the members of the 5 year club come to the realization that their spouse got to have their fun, and life goes on for them. They get to laugh, celebrate birthdays, see their children as if noting ever happened. A hard pill to swallow. She has gotten away with not doing anything. Some, not all, WS need to be treated like two years old and have to feel consequences for what they have done. What consequences has she felt.

Frankly, if I were in your shoes I would divorce her. She has done noting to prove she is worth the reclamation process for R. If not divorce, I would lay down strict boundaries as to what you will tolerate and she better tow the line.

Is she still a trainer? That profession is ripe for affairs. What has she done to protect you and her form this not happening again?

[This message edited by waitedwaytoolong at 9:16 PM, Wednesday, January 19th]

DGB, I wanted to cover some of the sexual stuff you’re experiencing that you mentioned:

I know, from my experience, that the sexual aspects of my WW’s affair turned me inside out, for years. Really fucked with me. The aspects were very similar to yours.

Why did she do certain sexual acts with AP but not with me?

Why no condom?

Why wasn’t she concerned about my health?

Why did she do it right under my nose?

Did she cum? How many times? What positions? Why so sexually active with him but not so much with me? Why more sexually adventurous with him? Did they have more sexual chemistry? Does she imagine that I’m her AP when we have sex? Is she just with me for practical reasons but wishes she was with him? Was he more endowed? Did he please her more?

Why the desecration of our personal property (your condo, your bathroom) and automobile where our kids sit?

Does she still fantasize about him, miss the sex, miss him?

Did she have sex with me right after having sex with him?

I will reframe some of the sexual aspects of an affair that might help you cope with the psycho-sexual trauma you maybe experiencing, that really helped me.

First of all, you can’t compare affair sex with marital sex. It’s apples and oranges. You can be Robert Redford and John Holmes all rolled into one and still not be able to compete with the illicit, risqué, forbidden fruit, novel, surrealistic nature of affair sex. Affair sex exists in a fantastical bubble where everything is exaggerated and hyper-stimulated with new limerent relationship phase nuerochemicals that are not sustainable through a long term marital relationship.

APs commonly, COMMONLY do things with their affair partners that they do not, would not normally do with their spouses for several reasons:

1. Marital norms and expectations. Affairs allow people to break out of their self induced molds that evolved in their marriage. Waywards, in the course of a physical affair, have an opportunity to reinvent themselves without judgment or embarrassment, to act out of character, to experiment. You feel naughty, very risqué, wonderfully indecent, carefree, erotic and very desirable and so, are more likely to act out your darkest crazy sexual fantasies that you would never consider with your spouse.

2. Because an affair is a new emerging relationship, the partners give 150% in an attempt to impress and will do things (anal, oral) they don’t normally enjoy. Also, APs make demands on their partners that they would never ask of their spouses. Affair sex is often very sexually charged and involves high risk sexual activity that adds to the sexual tension. Affair sex is usually under time constraints with little time for intimacy, affection, cuddling, foreplay and a hurried rush to porno-quicky quality sex acts and an aggressive checking-off of all the sexual acts boxes you possibly can before you must retire back to reality. Sexual tension builds between the APs due to a lack of opportunity. In between sexual rendezvous they fantasize, build-up anticipation for the next hookup, and reminisce about the last hook up. This coupled with the fear of getting caught, causes incredible sexual tension that married sex just can’t compare.

Some APs get off on having sex in inappropriate places. The family car. The marital bed. The work place. The risqué, forbidden nature and the fear of getting caught adds sexual tension. Some APs get off soiling or desecrating the marital bed or domain. It’s erotically empowering to the interloper. They also sometimes enjoy looking at the wedding ring on their affair partners hand or pictures on the nightstand. They get off on the conquest. Makes them feel better than.

Cheaters rarely ever use condoms. They’ve already thrown EVERYTHING to the wind, why care about STDs or pregnancy now? Waywards don't like over-thinking anything they’re doing. They avoid thinking about the unpleasant consequences of their actions just like drug, gambling, alcohol and drag racing addicts avoid thinking about the consequences of their actions. They’re acting almost entirely on impulse and heavily compartmentalizing. There is very little-if any, higher reasoning going on and no regard for risk reduction at all, except in avoidance of the risk of getting caught-and they’re pretty reckless in that regard also. An affair is reckless, stimulatingly reckless by its very nature, and so is all involved thinking.

Many Waywards describe Affair sex as cheap, fleeting, shallow and not sustainable. They describe marital sex as profound, lasting, more intimate, affectionate and deeply loving.

Many waywards “Affair Down”. During the affair they’re happier than pigs in shit. When the lights of reality are turned on and the affair fog lifts, they realize they’re just pigs in shit. The AP rarely measures up in any category and the illusion is broken and the whole thing is just pathetic as it never was based on anything real or substantive.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 11:23 PM, Wednesday, January 19th]

<hand raises> Another member of the 5 year club here.

I, too, white-knuckled it throughout, waiting, hoping that she'd 'get it.' Her own brother, mere weeks after the betrayal, told her "All I can tell you, sister, is love him hard now." Did.not.happen. Her behavior in the aftermath was impassive and distant as if she was waiting on me to come around. Her demeanor spoke "I will not pander to him and in so doing, reduce myself."

It's only been with the benefit of being apart now that I've been able to more clearly see that her sneaky, secretive, shady inclinations are an embedded component of her character. It's what has informed her behavior all along, and ultimately the betrayal.

This leapt out at me, I've seen this 1st hand...

She gave me a death stare; eyes narrowed etc.

Everything you've described paints the picture of a brazenly defiant chest-thumping unrepentant self-entitled emotionally immature child in a woman's body. That won't change. And you spoiled her fun which makes you the bad guy.

Yeah... try living with that.

I'm grateful to those of you who have posted replies.

The real problem lies in the fact that she, on the surface, does the right things. She's been expressing sorrow and remorse over her actions, apologizing profusely, etc.- but only if I am the one that brings up the fact that her affair is on my mind. I have not once, in almost 5 years, ever caught her crying, distraught, or down right sad of her own volition based on her actions. I think that is one of the things that I am coming to grips with- she is just a reactive woman, and that's that. She either doesn't have the will or proper impetus to effect change in how she deals with the aftermath of her shitty choices.

I'm not saying I want to see her wallowing in pity and sadness. I am saying that it sure would be pretty effing nice to see that this shit movie with a shit plot and terrible actors had an impact on her at some point.

She told me about one encounter they had where she was supposed to meet him at our condo, but she forgot the key. He apparently blew up at her, telling her she did this on purpose, she didn't want to keep having sex with him...basically putting on full display what kind of a "man" he was...and yet she STILL found a park they could go f*ck in. She debased herself and degraded herself by just her actions, let the actual fornicating.

It's taken me a very, very long time to...not necessarily face this as fact, but accept it, I guess. Now that I am far enough removed from the rawness and pain of it, I am left with seeing all the deficits in the marriage, in the aftermath of the affair, and almost all are based on her actions during the affair.

As to rugsweeping, looking back now, I agree. I tended to, and still do, although to a lesser extent, am more concerned with the timing of bringing up questions or thoughts as opposed to being annoyed that I have these thoughts in the first place because of her actions.

She does express remorse (I think?) as well as regret. She has been very supportive in her own right. The problem is, I don't' know if that level of support she can muster is enough for me to really forgive and move on. She sees me in pain, and I see her pain that she caused me to suffer. I do know that's real. I don't know if that's enough.

She is a good mother, and a good partner. Sex life is fairly active, we are great friends, etc. There is just a nagging voice that grows louder over time that tells me that there is just no way that I can get past this without having to turn in my man card .

Just so you know, I'm five years out too and I can relate to a lot of what you're saying.

Like this:

but only if I am the one that brings up the fact that her affair is on my mind.

Yep, been there, done that.

Oh, and they decided to ditch the condoms after the first encounter

My WW decided to ditch the condom on the very first sexual encounter, well, the only one she will admit to. And that was in our home also, so I can relate to the desecration of your home and the feeling of being constantly triggered.

I could not believe that she, and he, had the audacity to strike up an affair literally right under my nose.

Same here. Makes you wonder a lot of things, doesn't it? It's a special kind of hell.

My suspicion is they both enjoyed the wool they had pulled over my eyes and it was as close to knifepoint as they could get.

I think you're right and this happened in my case too. Which is why it is both baffling and bizarre when people show up here on SI and claim that WW's typically bore no malice against their husbands. It's hard to believe, when you and I both know there was animus directed at us.

To me, it seems especially evil that you would intentionally put your spouse in the presence of the AP

Yep.

I trusted her completely, which is why I did not take more decisive action at the time. I also did not want to appear to be controlling.

Also me.

She would not take a STD test after the affair.

Nor would mine. She kept telling me that was covered by a pap smear. I am no medical expert and naively believed her, then it occurred to me three years later to do some research and I realized this was a lie. I made my WW take an STD test at the three-year mark.

if I read something and wanted to share it, she would read it eventually.

Sounds familiar.

I just think the biggest thing holding me back is my perception that she is still lying about the intensity etc of the affair. And I don’t know whether to trust what she says, backed up by her actions to be a good wife, or trust my gut, realize it’s a dealbreaker, always was, and start working to pull the plug.

I would say trust your gut. If you think she is still lying and minimizing, it's because she probably is. It is PROBABLE, which means likely. And if that's the case, then you're dealing with someone who has remained mired in her wayward mindset the past five years.

The problem is, I don't' know if that level of support she can muster is enough for me to really forgive and move on.

I would say stop beating yourself up on the forgiveness thing. Forgiveness is a process, not an epiphany. After a brutal, abusive, toxic betrayal .... forgiveness takes a lifetime. And I would say if you've reached a place of "giving up hope the past could be different" and you're not seeking to hurt her or rub her nose in the affair (which you aren't) then you've forgiven her. So mission accomplished.

Here's the thing, though. Forgiveness cannot and should not be confused or conflated with reconciliation. To forgive is one thing. To reconcile is a separate thing. People can forgive and divorce. They can forgive and reconcile. Forgiveness is for you.

So stop beating yourself up about it. Your forgiveness does not hinge on reconciling with her and vice versa. Free yourself from that expectation.

I would also say that forgiveness of a grave and toxic transgression, one that is forbidden in every single human culture past and present, does not equate to staying with that person. My favorite model for Reconciliation is the South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission. There was no expectation that victims of apartheid would become roommates with perpetrators of the regime. The commission worked to reconcile and help victims achieve forgiveness. That doesn't mean they were required to become friends with people who had done evil. Just something to think about.

[This message edited by Thumos at 12:23 AM, Thursday, January 20th]

I'm not saying I want to see her wallowing in pity and sadness. I am saying that it sure would be pretty effing nice to see that this shit movie with a shit plot and terrible actors had an impact on her at some point.

DGB- You have to understand that the way you're thinking about it will just further frustrate you. You see, your WW is never going to feel the same pain you do. What you went thru and continue to go through, they never feel that. She can probably sleep well at night, might piss you off, but it won't get you anywhere. There is no justice, things don't really equal out. Many of the WWs just don't have the ability, or will to really dig that deep, and even if she does, what that might look like for her vs you, may be different things.

Since its been 5 yrs for you, and you cannot seem to be able to get past this, the question is are you wasting more of your time on this relationship? Hey, she didn't take much time to wander. You think she was thinking about cheating for 5 yrs prior to cheating? Probably not, but she did it anyway.

Don't waste more of your time. If this is a deal breaker and you know it, you've given yourself 5 yrs, and plenty of grace to your wife. You gave her a shot, and she has not lived up to the part. When you didnt live up to her standards she went and cheated on you. YOu on the other hand did the honorable thing, you didnt cheat. You are doing what you wish she would have done to you right? Tell her whats wrong, and if it cannot be worked out, get a divorce. She should have told you 5 yrs ago before she went straying. You need to tell her now, what you need and if you know what you need aint being met, after trying for 5 yrs and knowing she is who she is...don't waste more time dude. YOu cannot get time back.

Here is the other thing, once and if she does begin to really get it. You cannot guarantee she won't do it again. There are so many others that come back on here 5 yrs, 3 yrs, 10 yrs later after having DDay 2 or 3. That's even more time wasted if you already know its a deal breaker.

I see your frustration and questions regarding if your Wife is really sorry and remorseful.

I asked my H this and he gave me an honest answer. After a few years he stopped bringing it up b/c he felt if he did it would cause me more pain. So he just wanted to avoid causing more damage so he avoided bringing it up.

He also said he has deep regret every day - whether he discussed it or not. And I believed it.

Maybe that is why we are happily reconciled. Because I know deep down how he feels.

I am sorry your wife does not appear to have the same feelings or regret.

DGB,

The reasons of 'why' are many, and greatly vary. Only your WW will actually know the real 'why'.

Check-out the I Can Relate forum if you would like to gain some insight into the Wayward mind. This is not exhaustive, but there are some kick-ass ex-waywards there who help BSs make sense of some of the damage the WS wreaked. They do not justify the actions, but help the BS understand possible 'whys' when the OPs WS don't answer.

One thing to note, a WS that does not actively participate in R, is because they do not realise that R is not a guaranteed thing. Your WW does not realise that what you are doing is giving her a chance at R, and that if during this process you are not convinced that she is safe, you can bail.

At the foundation of it all, your WW will need to sort out her demons, and if she does not sort them out (with an IC), she will never be safe for you or your family.

In terms of triggers, apart form the bathroom, do the clothes she wore during her A trigger you? If so, what has she dome with them? Any gifts (apart from the unsavoury ones) from the AP? These things can slow down the recovery of the BS, as they can be unconscious reminders of the A.

we are great friends

Don't kid yourself, great friends do not do things to each other like what your WW did to you.