SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Maybe just put the OBS on the back burner. It may help you to just remove yourself from any little mental kick to the nuts you get when being around here, however it is you interact.
Its not something I can do, I wouldnt want to deal with the reminders of just seeing the OBS.

It seems to me that you really wanted to save your marriage and would've at least tried to reconcile if your WW had been open to the idea. So even though you're saying that you're upset over the fact that OBS is choosing to reconcile and you don't agree with her approach to protecting/preserving her marriage, I think what you're actually upset about is that OM decided he didn't want a divorce; yours did. Your wife got her freedom; OM/OBS got to keep their marriage (even though it's in a sorry state). The only one who is suffering a major loss in this situation is you.

Although you might think that you don't want to endure the loss of OBS as a friend and that letting go of her would constitute another "win" for the OM, I think accept that this friendship is starting to cause you more harm than good. She is going to put her family first. Even though her husband has betrayed her and certainly isn't worthy of the gift of R that she's given him, she is being a good wife to prioritize her obligations to him as a wife over her loyalty to you as a friend.

If it hasn't happened already, I think that she will eventually realize that maintaining a friendship with you is an impediment to reconciliation or is simply requires more emotional energy than she can expend while trying to reconcile. I think you will spare yourself a lot of needless pain and feelings of rejection if you cut things off-- or at least start to put more distance between yourself and OBS-- before she does.

Thank you all. Detaching is what I'm doing already, good advice.

BluerThanBlue interesting thoughts, but most of them didn't resonate too much. I am not viewing this situation in terms of fairness. My xWW lost her dignity and is rugsweeping because she cannot face what she has done. OBS lost two very close relatives at the time of the A and is holding to the M as if her life depended on it. I lost my M, but my conscience is clear. It's probably pointless to compare whose loss is bigger.

letting go of her would constitute another "win" for the OM

I spent a lot of time on that thought and concluded it was actually the opposite. We are losing a friendship because of infidelity. No matter how much she wants to R, this will be a loss primarily due to her and H actions, and will likely cause a rift eventually. There's no "win" for anyone.

Bumped per ZDZD's request.

I don't think there is a right or wrong way to think about it to be honest. I used to get all wrapped up in the "fairness" game myself - and I wanted there to be some cosmic universal suffering button out there - they (WH, AP, whoever condoned the A) should suffer as much as I did. That was silliness on my part (and I am in no way suggesting OP is doing that) as there is no pain and suffering unit of measurement out there that is 100% accurate anyway. It seems to me that ZDZD is correct in that there is no win for anyone - anyone who matters anyway, which in this situation is ZDZD and his kids. Unfortunately there is oftentimes no real win for the betrayed unless you can get out with your sanity in tact (which in looking back - is a major "win" for me).

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 11:34 PM, Tuesday, February 28th]

This is a topic I started with on this forum as I was trying to process the betrayals I encountered. I am still not completely done, but I've come a long way.

When my friend decided to R, I didn't think of it much initially, and wished her well. But she wasn't just a family friend, she was MY close friend, so after a few weeks I started getting a strong familiar sense of betrayal and called her out: "Your husband hurt your friend and doesn't want to do anything about it, what are you going to do about it? " . She never confronted her H on this, but she confronted me with "Marriage and friendship are different things", "It's between him and you, I haven't done you any harm".

Around the same time, I asked her a couple of practical favours to help in my house, and got a response "You're still married' and later 'I don't want to ruin our friendship'. I was so bewildered so I just googled the phrase, and got a new term into my vocabulary - "Friendzoned"

Obviously my friend the OBS had no idea what to do about me after R, and made attempts to distance herself. I was first super confused, then super angry about her behaviour. But I was still reeling from the whole story, so I rationalised that it might have been a misunderstanding. Now that I fairly recovered, I see it for what it is, so I detached and disengaged. She really wants to be friends and tried to "friend bomb" me. This all makes me sorrowful to this day.

ThisIsSoLonely thank you for your thoughts. Due to the above, it took me a while to regain sanity and balance.

Regarding a universal suffering (or revenge?) button, I thought about and came to a conclusion - if there was such a button, would I press it? What would it say about my character, and how can more suffering fix anything? My friends both chose themselves in their own way. To me, that's suffering enough.

[This message edited by ZDZD at 9:48 AM, Wednesday, March 1st]

I am sorry, I misread

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 1:42 AM, Wednesday, March 1st]

ZDZD

Personally, I eliminate cheaters and their immediate associates (birds of a feather thing) from my social circle.
Can't avoid them at work or church though.

So, ZDZD, how would your life have been (better I think) if you did the same "back then?"

ZDZD, I have previously posted on another one of your threads relating to your situation with the OBS so I’m generally familiar with the situation.

I’m a bit confused by your most recent post though. How can you get "friend zoned" by someone is just your friend (unless you see her otherwise). My understanding of the term, "friendzoned" is when person A has romantic feelings for someone and person B let’s them know (either explicitly or implicitly) that the romantic feelings are not reciprocated and that A only sees be as a friend. I wonder if maybe you meant to use a different word.

In any event, I’m not surprised this friendship is experiencing strain. It’s unfortunate, but it’s pretty tough to be friends with someone who actively dislikes your spouse (even if that dislike is warranted here - and it is!). Based on your prior descriptions, it sounds like OBS, for whatever reason, is content to rugsweep and call it R (her choice). For any R to work, she naturally has to prioritize her relationship, and it doesn’t sound like you can be a friend of that marriage right now (for VERY good reason). In your situation, it makes perfect sense that you would struggle with how someone who is supposed to be your friend is capable of almost condoning someone who has actively hurt you. True friends stick up for one another.

The situation seems impossible. I’m sorry.

I'm also confused by your use of the term friendzoned, given that you, supposedly, have no romantic intent toward OBS. I think a more accurate phrase for your situation would be "aquaintance-zoned."

As I predicted in my reply in December, OBS has realized that she can't be friends with you while trying to reconcile her marriage. I completely agree with her statement that "marriage and friendship are different." Although her husband cheated on her, she is holding up her end of their vows by prioritizing their marriage and forsaking all others-- which, unfortunately, now includes you, mainly because you disrespected her decision to remain married and overstepped the boundaries that she is tried to set with you.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 2:44 AM, Thursday, March 2nd]

emergent8, BluerThanBlue thank you for your comments. About "friendzone", it was confusing for me too. I never expressed any romantic interest. Whereas before R meeting with kids, other friendly activities, or requests for small help were never a problem, right after R my suggestions were met with "You are still married" or "I value you as a friend too much".

My friend tends to rugsweep and go on without discussing things. Even after I confronted her about this, she said "it was a misunderstanding", and then continued more. Since I don't have a clear answer to this day, here's my guess:

I did a lot for her family and her personally. When our spouses did their thing and she experienced loss of close family members, I was the chief supporter. When she started R, she couldn't just say "thanks for your help, my husband will take it from here", so she needed a justified reason to distance. Maybe since I was distressed and needed more support myself last year, it could be interpreted as romantic attachment. This way, it's a much easier justification to distance oneself, and not have to deal with problems that her spouse created for other people. I am not sure I am right, but that is the best I could come up with.

BluerThanBlue Contrary to what you were saying, I did not and do not disrespect her decision to be married, I think it's an honourable thing to do. I did allow myself a couple of hurtful comments early on, but we talked, I apologised and never did that again, I don't feel she held it against me. What I disrespect is the compartmentalisation - I'm your loyal friend, and your things with my husband is none of my business. When your friend is suffering at your spouse's hand, you confront your spouse. At least I did. Otherwise, it is indeed an impossible situation as emergent8 says.

I don't come from a Christian background, maybe for this reason "forsake all others" seems like an oversimplification that can do as much harm as good. "Us four and no more" is how it often ends resulting in.

Hippo16 I understand your wish to cut out everyone related to cheating. However, as you go to church, maybe worth thinking that this was not how Christ did? Even though most people might not change drastically over a course of their lifetime, perhaps still worth to keep your heart open a little bit for your own sake?

If I understood your question, if I cut my friend off as soon as she chose R - I would perhaps be further along in my recovery. At the same time, I would likely be tormented by the fact that I cut people off during their hard times because their actions did not fit my agenda. I had another year to try, and I don't regret it.

Overall, as this chapter of my life is coming to an end, I keep wondering what the lesson was. If it would be just a cheating spouse as in most cases, it would be easier to say that's on them. When 3 people distance themselves or march out of your life, it's much harder to not look inside and wonder whether it had something to do with your character. I hope life will show.

[This message edited by ZDZD at 11:22 AM, Thursday, March 2nd]

It sounds to me like she read "Not Just Friends" and is putting proper boundaries in place.

Your WW and her WH blurred their friendship into an affair. Now she's trying to reconcile, and even though her friendship with you never became an issue before, she's newly alert to the possibility of impropriety. You started telling her that she should be advocating for you against him. That's a red flag: people who are not friends of the marriage, and who ask to insert themselves into the dynamics of it, need to be put in their place if not cut off completely.

I'm not saying you need to be friendly towards the interests of a man who did you wrong. You have every right to hate him. However, that's not her issue to solve. She was double betrayed by him, too, and he owed her far more than he owed you. It isn't realistic to expect her to make his betrayal of you into her hill to die on.

BraveSirRobin as far as I'm aware, the only book on the subject she read was "Rethinking Infidelity" by Esther Perel. Let's not get into that :)

I understand your perspective. I wouldn't put marriage on a pedestal any higher than it needs to be, and tbh I'm not a fan of expression "just friends" which puts romantic relationships above friendly ones. Romantic partners often are there to build a family and value you as a partner in building a family. Good friends see your value as a human being.
"Friends of the marriage" is a valid concept, but it has a lot of emphasis on marriage - I would expand it to "friends of what you are doing". If someone has a problem that you speak too loudly, you either lower your voice, try to reason with them, or cut them off. In a way, I was fighting for our friendship, and I did not want to lose a friend. A friendship where my friend is not protecting my interests is not a healthy one. As I recovered, I could distance and disengage. It is just a sadness that is remaining.

Is there any risk of this being an EA with the OMW?
Are you now the OM in their marriage?

Not saying your are, but maybe you should look inwards and think if there might be any truth in that.
We often talk about friends of the marriage. If her husband isn’t happy with her spending time with you then you aren’t a friend of their marriage.

Bigger that's a good question. EA's are murkier, and I don't have any previous experience.

From my side, I never did anything that my then-wife didn't know or wouldn't approve of. When we were living together, she herself encouraged me to offer help, out of guilt. Admittedly, I was more happy to see my friend than my WW. But I was more happy with all my friends, for reasons that my WW created herself. I don't feel I engaged in EA, but I will ponder on it.

My friend the OBS did complaining about how her WH treated her during their A. Looking back, now I would immediately ask to stop. She also compared him to me a couple of times, there I asked her to stop right away, and she did. So whether it was distress and grief or EA on her side, I don't know, she didn't say.

Last year, I was the OM in a sense that her WH was not invited, neither into my home, nor into our conversations, for natural reasons.

Thanks for helping me to unpack this.

[This message edited by ZDZD at 3:06 PM, Thursday, March 2nd]

It's a murky situation.

You have some type of friendship with the OBW. The friendship, if I understand it, predates the A, but it changed in character somewhat as a result of you and the OBW commiserating in the aftermath of the A. Regardless whether that became an "EA" or not, it does involve a certain level of intimacy that goes beyond most ordinary social friendships.

Since then, the OBW has decided to attempt R with her WH, who is also your WW's AP, who was also somewhat of a friend to you.

As between the OBW and her WH, she owes her first duty of emotional intimacy and loyalty to her husband. This inures by virtue of her decision to attempt R with him. This only works if she is "both feet in" with respect to the marriage.

The WH/AP is a man who disrespected you in an extreme manner. He is somebody toward whom you would naturally harbor a great deal of animus and lack of respect.

By extension, the OBW's presence in your life becomes toxic to some degree as a result of her choice to devote herself to marriage with this man.

If a person in your life is toxic due to circumstances such as this, you cut that person out of your life. You don't need to dislike or "break off the friendship" with the OBW to justify this. Just inform her, respectfully, that for the time being her presence in your life is toxic and therefore you will be breaking off contact with her.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 3:20 PM, Thursday, March 2nd]

What I disrespect is the compartmentalisation - I'm your loyal friend, and your things with my husband is none of my business. When your friend is suffering at your spouse's hand, you confront your spouse. At least I did. Otherwise, it is indeed an impossible situation as emergent8 says.

You honestly think that she hasn't had any confrontation or arguments whatsoever with her husband about his affair with your ex and the pain that he has caused both of you? Just because she hasn't told you about these conversations doesn't mean they never happened. Even if she is choosing to rugsweep and stay with him despite his lack of remorse, I just find it extremely unlikely that she's never said a single word about it.

The issue you here is that you think she should be doing something about his betrayal. She's refused. If that's unacceptable or intolerable to you, then you need to move on.

I don't come from a Christian background, maybe for this reason "forsake all others" seems like an oversimplification that can do as much harm as good. "Us four and no more" is how it often ends resulting in.

You don't have to be Christian to recognize that, across time and cultures, the status of marriage supersedes pretty much any other type of relationship, except for, perhaps, the parent-child relationship. I have friends I love dearly, but none of them are the father of my children, none of them will be making critical medical decisions with my doctors if I'm ever seriously ill and incapacitated, I'm not part of a legal/financial entity with them, etc.

So again, she's not wrong for prioritizing her husband over you, even though--based on his actions--he doesn't deserve her loyalty and you do.

It's unfortunate, but it's clear that OBS simply can't be the source of emotional and practical support that you need right now. I don't think you need to have a confrontation about it; simply keeping your distance--as she did with you-- should communicate that enough.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 3:34 PM, Thursday, March 2nd]

In general, SIers recommend NC with anyone connected woth the A. You're the OBS to her. That's one explanation of her withdrawal. Another is that she shared secrets about herself and her M with you. That has to stop if she's in R - no secrecy from her H, even though he was a WS.

I think your best bet is to wrap this friendship up and put it in your past.

Given my view of NC, and given SI's wisdom on NC (if I understand it correctly), what are you doing making her into a friend? Is that healthy for you?

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I have stopped communicating around 3 months ago when I wrote the previous update. A bit after that, I wrote to her that I would keep my distance and disengage. What may have impacted me recently is that now my ...ex-friend..? is really keen on staying in touch - to come to a birthday, have a phone call etc. So I had to be more explicit that we need to stop communicating.

This time, I was just sadly reflecting on the loss of friendship.

BluerThanBlue the nature and importance of marriage is an interesting discussion for a separate thread. I am in no way trying to diminish its importance, it's just the attitude towards marriage that you are describing is fairly new for about 50-60 years, and the expectation that your spouse should be your main focus in life, best friend, confidant and supporter, is not universal.

it's just the attitude towards marriage that you are describing is fairly new for about 50-60 years, and the expectation that your spouse should be your main focus in life, best friend, confidant and supporter, is not universal.

You’re misunderstanding and/or mischaracterizing my point. I said that marriage has a special status and requires spouses to prioritize each other above others. That’s not a new idea by any stretch. It’s also not the same as saying that a spouse is the be-all, end-all.

In fact, I think a lot of WS end up down the route of cheating because they think that their spouse is responsible for fulfilling all their needs, and when they don’t (because no one can), they justify their decision to have affairs.

Anyway, my point is that I think it’s healthy and necessary for people to have friendships and other sources of support outside their marriage, the marital relationship should always come first.

You might disagree but that appears to be OBS’s position.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 11:32 PM, Thursday, March 2nd]