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This is what "NOT REMORSEFUL" looks like. She should be the poster woman.

Really, she will push back because either she just doesn't give a shit or she knows she can push you around and not do all that much.

How did your response of "don't talk to me" work? I bet it had her shaking in her boots. I think you are way too nice for her. She doesn't deserve a nice statement like "don't talk to me."

really started making progress. Met with ic, we restarted intamacy, gave me her phone password

Do you really think having sex and giving passwords are really making progress? AGAIN, you are way too nice for her. And you must have some kind of PTSD, like you've been a hostage to her bullying behaviors for way too long, like you expect so, so, so little from a wife. Do you know there are women who would love you, be "in love" with you? I understand the whole family thing. But she is not afraid of blowing that whole thing to smithereens, she is practically begging for you to do it, yet you seem so ... what? I truly believe she is damaging your psyche.

Why are you settling for crumbs? Do you have a brother, a good friend, you can talk to about what you are settling for? Better yet, do you have sister you can talk to?

[This message edited by wk55hn at 10:25 PM, December 28th (Wednesday)]

"But it ww mad ok to talk about her upcoming batcherorette party in vegas in march. Fuck her"

Whoa... RED flag warning!!

No effing way. I can see this being a problem. Dealbreaker type problem.

If there's any chance of R happening she should skip the party, maybe by that time you could plan on doing something as a family. But if she forces the issue and insists on going it shows that you don't rate very high on her list. If I were in your shoes and for some reason she "had to go" you should go too. If she won;t agree to that, use the time to pack her stuff for her.

If there is ANY % chance the OM is still in the picture do you think she would tell him she'd going to be in Vegas for a weekend un-supervised? If I were her I sure as hell would!!

What happens in Vegas does not stay in Vegas

PS I am new here so I don't if this has been hashed out before. It isn't just you but it seems alot of BSs get their WS passwords or freedom to check phones. Didn;t y'all see "The Wire" and learn about burner phones? $40 at Target gets you a Trac Fone. Use that one for the affair and show the clean one to the spouse.

[This message edited by MickeyBill2016 at 1:53 PM, December 29th (Thursday)]

Ugh I really think your wife and my ex are long lost sisters. The lack of remorse and just wanting you to get over it was what I dealt with from day one.

You wont get what you are wanting or able to move on if this does not happen. And she doesn't care enough about you or your marriage to give it to you. She knows you will accept scraps that she tosses on the floor and that will tide you over.

I am sorry I was hoping things would get better for you but this is not happening. The sex was to get you to move on from wanting answers. The phone doesn't help you much. She can have so many options to get around that on you.

I agree with Wk55 and MickeyBill.

First, she ahs shown no empathy and you are now back at square one.

Secondly, batchelorette parties are dangerous enough. In Vegas ??? Why does it have to be in 'sin city' ? Sounds like a lot of inappropriate things may be going on there and yes, those Cfnm parties do exist. So does the possibility of OM being there

You are not healing because she is not letting you heal and further, her talking about that party and her intentions on going to it = dealbreaker.

I would suggest you find an attorney and exit stage left before you are made to deal with the questions of what went on in Vegas. As Mickey said, what happens in Vegas doesn't stay there.

Yeah she is self centered for sure. The reason she asks if you're ok is not because she has empathy and is concerned, but because she wants to keep the rug sweeping going. She's concern she has to give up that cake. Sorry , but now it's time to take control.

She's taking this whole thing like nothing really happen.

She has no clue as to the huge damage she has caused and the magnitude of the wrong she has done.

With a mindset like that, there is nothing to stop her from doing it again. A bad hair day, you dont take the trash out, etc, will give her another excuse to do it all over again.

Has she read any of the suggested books like How to help your spouse heal from the affair and Not Just Friends?

As for going to Vegas for a party, not if she wants to stay married.

What you are seeing is toxic shame. If she apologizes, acknowledges what she did, has to show you empathy, etc., it causes her to face the depths of what she has done, which she simply cannot handle.

Instead, she wants you to rug sweep this for her. That way she does not have to acknowledge how retched she has behaved.

Lovely, eh?

Until a wayward is willing to look at themselves, they are not a candidate for reconciliation. The only way for them to get have a chance to that point (and this is far from foolproof) is for them to hit rock bottom.

Your job is to help her get there, or rather, stop standing in the way of her getting there, by not offering her anything but a quick and fair divorce. File, put the wheels in motion, stop meeting any of her needs, and let her feel consequences.

Only when the pain of consequences hurts more than the toxic shame does the wayward have a shot at overcoming. And again, until that happens, they are not a good candidate for reconciliation.

A gem from the SI Archives..I think it's fitting here since you (again) backed off your plan to file when she gave you some "scraps":

if you love them, and they are not remorseful, have a think about starting a divorce. OK, so this one is going to take a little explaining, because it's very counter intuitive and divorce would surely be the last things on our minds.

Here's your checklist

You

1. Feel your life has imploded

2. Are devastated

3. Cannot understand how to survive the next day

4. Desperately want to save the marriage

5. Believe you love your spouse

6. Have something in your gut telling you your spouse should be doing more

7. Feel like you would "know" if they were completely remorseful and just don't feel it.

Them

1. Are defensive

2. Do what you ask, but only because you get so upset.

3. Don't go above and beyond, don't amaze you with how much they do to help you

4. Get angry or defensive

5. Use any of the following

. I'm confused

. I don't know if I love you

. I need to find myself

. You're being too demanding

. I probably had the affair because you....

If they above rings true, divorce should at least be on your agenda of options.

Right then I suppose I'd better justify this.

Look, why would you stay married to such a person? not only did they devastate you, but they are continuing to hurt you. There's no reason to be married to a person like that! You want to be married to someone that protects you, treasures you, loves you, and makes you feel loved. The person you thought existed didn't. that person is selfish, cruel, heartless. They are a liar, an adulter. Who wants to be married to a loser like that? What they have done is perfectly reasonable grounds for divorce. so do it. Divorce them immediately.

You have to accept the reality of your wayward spouse's situation. They are confused about whom they love, whom they want to be with. The worst case scenario is that they will continue the affair, and because the affair is addictive, and makes them feel good, they will do this in all situations possible, no matter what the effect on you is. You are probably thinking that your situation is different. It really isn't. If the worst case scenario doesn't happen then your spouse is going to exist in a sort of limbo, not knowing where to turn. All this time your soul will be dying because you will not be able to comprehend that the person you love didn't come running back into your arms once you caught them or the affair was exposed. It does happen, but it's very, very rare. Much more likely is that you will both exist in a limbo, not knowing what will happen next, or how to move forward. The WS will be confused, and the BS will be utterly devastated. This shit needs to end, and it will ONLY end when the BS says it ends. If your WS says they need time, or distance, or space. If they say they are confused, they are lost, they "regret" the affair, or "reg that you got hurt" then they DO NOT GET WHAT THEY HAVE DONE TO YOU and will NOT get it until you put your foot down and say enough. It's terrible enough to be the victim of infidelity, but the sad reality is that somehow you have to dredge up the strength to fight for you spouse if you want them back, despite what they have done to you. Fighting means tough love. It means putting an end to their nonsense. It means waking them up to what they are about to realise. Or even letting them go if they do not wake up. It means instigating divorce proceedings.

Beginning divorce proceedings has a number of benefits for you

1. Self Respect.

Infidelity trashes your self respect. Claim some back by taking control of the situation. Now the relationship is taking a path YOU have defined, that YOU are in control of. As a new BS you will crave control, crave rationality. Beginning a divorce will give you this control.

2. A bullshit time limit

An unremorseful wayward spouse is a nasty piece of work. They will lie, manipulate, and continue to betray you. They will protect themselves and their lover at your expense, and the expense of any children. They will tell you everything you need to hear, but only when you drag it out of them in agony. They will be difficult, argumentative, angry and defensive. Basically, they are unpleasant people. Critically, they will CONTINUE to be unpleasant people until YOU do something about it. They will sit on the fence, wrapped up in their own feelings, whilst your soul dies. You may think that YOUR spouse is different. They arn't. beginning divorce proceedings puts a finite time limit on their bullshit. They can lie to you, make you feel like YOU are the bad guy, give you every excuse in the book as to why they are not stepping up and fixing the marriage, but the clock is ticking.When they clock expires, you are free of all teir bullshit and can start the healing process.

3. Vision

A BS's world is very dark. We wonder how to survive today, never mind tomorrow. There appears to be no future. We can see no life without misery. We can see no freedom, no light, no smiling, no joy. All ahead is dark. Start divorce proceedings. Now you have a future. It may not be the future you had ever hoped for, but it's a future. Sometime to aim for, something to plan for. Something that will force you to get some sleep so you can organise your life.

4. Healing

If you are with an uremorseful wayward spouse, things are going to get worse, not better. You are certainly not going to start healing. that happens when they become remorseful, or you are free of them.

so divorce the bastards. They are not worth being married to.

However.

Maybe. Just maybe. Maybe that pathetic excuse for a spouse isn't the limit of their potential. Maybe they have it within them to actually be the person you thought they were. Hell. Maybe they can be MORE than you or they ever thought. The wayward spouses on here who are remorseful are incredibly self aware, rounded human beings. They stand no nonsense. They examine themselves for their faults relentlessly. They make you want to stand up and applaud. They make you want to be a better man. Wouldn't it be nice if you were married to a person like that. THAT would be fucking awesome. Well, remember why you fell in love. you believe that person is worth more, or you wouldn't still be reading this post. Filing for divorce MIGHT just make them

1. Realise what they are about to lose

2. Take a long hard look at themselves

3. Recognise that their bullshit, lying, and manipulating is pointless, because the clock just keeps ticking.

there are countless tales on here, including my own, where nothing happened until the BS retook control of the relationship. The WS sat on the fence happily destroying the BS, wrapped up in their own little drama, UNTIL the BS decided they had had enough and took control.

So, you start divorce proceedings. what are the possible outcomes.

1. They sort themselves out and start to "get it"

Keep the proceedings going until you are damn sure you have someone who is remorseful, not someone who is just playing up to get you to stop. You can always restart the process. In the UK its awesome because there are several points where you can basically press the "pause" button, and then start it rolling again. However, if they really do realise what they have lost and start to fight for it, then you can kill the process. That's what happened for me, and I'm convinced it's what a lot of people need to be doing.

2. They get angry and leave

Wave them goodbye with a smile. Good riddance - all you have done is start a process you would have to have gone down in the end anyway, so all that's happened is that you have shortcutted the process, saved yourself from tolerating their craziness, and retaken control of your life. Hell, they may even come crawling back. It happens. what happens after that is of course, up to you.

3. They continue lying and cheating

Well, sounds like a good reason to divorce someone to me.

Look, I am VERY pro marriage. I believe that with a remorseful wayward spouse, and a forgiving Betrayed Spouse, marriages can be stronger and more fulfilling than they ever were before the affair, because neither partner is now taking the other for granted. Both are working at the marriage. I would rather get to that point without the agony of betrayal, but hey. However, I am NOT pro foggy remorseful spouse. It breaks my heart to read post after post from betrayed spouses who have just been stabbed in the heart and still have the courage to want to save their marriage, whilst their WS is still in foggy lala land. It's sickening. Nothing ever changed until the BS retakes control, so when I say "divorce them", what I really mean is "retake control of your life, and put time limit on the pain".

so, if you are with an unremorseful spouse, who is hurting you, think about divorcing them. It's an acknowledgement of the reality of the situation you have been forced into. It doesn't have to go the full term, but either way it's a win win situation.

People always say "dont make any rash decisions for six months". But that is assuming both people are back on board. If your spouse is still hurting you by lying, minimising, getting angry or defensive, then no-one expects you to put up with that for six months. you're being emotionally abused. Put a stop to it. Give it a time limit.

I love my wife with all my heart. However, I wish I had started divorce proceedings against her the moment I realised she was not remorseful. We might have made it, we might not, but I would not have been put through six weeks of hell that he left me far more traumatised than the original affair did. If you love them, then be prepared to let them go. It's your best shot at getting them back.

But it ww mad ok to talk about her upcoming batcherorette party in vegas in march.

I am really sorry man. I am. She is not giving you any other options here.

I'd see an attorney and get the process started. She is so far from being remorseful. She was trying to play you.

It worked for awhile. Her true colors showed up recently.

Tell her to find other arrangements for the kids for her Bachelorette party. You have taken care of the home and kids enough so she can cheat on you.

Again so sorry man. You have the power to end this and expose the real reason far and wide. See how she likes everyone seeing who she actually is versus who she pretends to be.

What's your status Goodguy 80?

Hi all - just wanted to give an update.

The last month has been better but it's been me giving 100% and her 10%. She did ic and we had our first mc - the counselor called her out about the trickle truth. Her physical affair stopped but I can tell shes still into him emotionally. I had come to the conclusion last month as things were getting better to be as loving and supportive as possible; give it til April and then make a decision.

However, in our mc session and our after that there was from her end nothing really crazy about our marraige that made her cheat except lack of romance - which she never mentioned it was a problem. I think it's just a cop out but what broke the proverbial camels back was finding a charge on her credit card recently for truthfinder. When I initially questioned her on it she denied it and that it was a mistake charge only later to find out through her confession she was looking his and wife's info up. The second straw was her telling me they texted seeing how each other was doing but "kept it short"

I asked her not to lie and have nc and she broke both. I plan on telling her i want a divorce this Saturday. She planned for the first time in 3 months since the affair some time for us to be together ( I think for valentines).

I would like suggestions on the best way to approach her with I want a divorce. I will not file surprise her with papers FYI even though she deserves it.

Sorry forgot to add - I want to do it before after we drop off the kids at the sitter for the night but before we do what she had planned for us

I would say: I have filed for divorce and you will receive the papers in a few days.

And if she says anything:

For me there cannot be three people in a Marriage. You have had plenty of time and opportunity to change the direction the M was heading but ultimately you felt that continuing your relationship with your AP was and is still more important than our M. I hope we can D amicably so we can both continue on with our lives as we desire.

That's a nice way. You are not surprising her with D papers.

For me I just said we are done and all future contact with the ex went thru L and still does.

[This message edited by notanotherchance at 2:21 PM, February 6th (Monday)]

I don't think you can gentle this, if you're going to D then have the papers drawn up and have her served, sounds like she might fight like hell to stop it from happening, question is if you get the tears, and the full on emotional press will you still be resolute and go through with the D?

You only go this route if you commit to it and make your word bond, anything else and she might resent you for using D as a weapon or simply depending on if you cave, see you as weak, and you might find yourself in this position again in the future when the OM re establishes contact with your WW.

What does she have planned for you?

I would do it over dinner in a public restaurant because I'm afraid of her if you do it in private, just you two.

This is 100 percent going to divorce. It took me 3 months to see what everyone here has been saying is correct. Most all cheaters do the same thing. I have come down to it was a very emotional to get to the decision but was an easy one to make.

there was from her end nothing really crazy about our marraige that made her cheat except lack of romance

I got that excuse, too. More like no "passion and romance" from my XW. What she really was saying is that the excitement of the deviant lust and secrecy she feels from having affair she wants to interpret as the missing "passion and romance" from her marriage. That's the rationalization they tell themselves to cross the boundary, to make it ok to cheat, "something was missing" yet when in fact it wasn't the marriage that had a void to fill. The void was within her. She was just too chicken shit to woman up and tell you she wanted all those so called "passion and romance" things from you for whatever reason (damage her image as mother, maybe thinks you see her as a slut, too afraid to show you her darker side) who knows. That's for her to figure out.

Just keep your eyes wide open after you tell her. You'll find out soon enough just how much she really values the marriage, how much she values you. You will get your answer as to whether she too much pride to understand and take desperate action or demonstrate levels of empathy you never knew she had.

J Duff - thanks for your comments. It's funny I must off told her 10 times over the last 3 months that if she wants out to just tell me. I don't get it. I have a feeling I will see no remorse but maybe she'll surprise me.

Oh, you'll see lots of crying, wailing and gnashing of teeth...but it won't be remorse.

(Maybe it will, but odds are heavily against).

[This message edited by WornDown at 7:24 AM, February 7th (Tuesday)]

Well it's good that you had the break thru and are going to proceed. Sucks that she is still pining for the OM , texting and doing research on him...Best to learn this now than after and kind of R.

If you want some fireworks have her served at work, I bet the OM will be on her speed dial.

For no fireworks have the papers already filled out with: Goodguy80 (petitioner)Mrs Notsogoodguy (respondent). Make a set of copies for her to look over and then sign.

With my D I filled out all the paperwork and the attorney looked them over and filed them after xWW signed, in many counties you can download PDFs of the divorce application or maybe fill out an online version.

In either case it's not hard (at least in LA county it wasn't)

[This message edited by MickeyBill2016 at 8:19 PM, February 6th (Monday)]