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I think you did and are doing well, AD. Stay the course with the D.

Is there a chance she could change? Yes, of course. Human beings are capable of change until they die. But given the massive damage she's caused the the M and your family, and your ability to trust her, those changes would need to be profound in order to give you any chance at all at meaningful R. If she's remotely serious, you'll see obvious signs from her soon if not immediately. I mean signs that are real, significant, obvious, thoughtful, and not done grudgingly after suggestions by you. She'll be taking the initiative and acting proactively, doing stuff that shows she's stepping up and going above and beyond. Anything less than that is simply bullshit, because "above and beyond" is frankly the minimum level that gives you any chance at all for R, and then only years down the line. Trust is going to be very, very difficult to restore, and it may never return regardless of what she does. Ask yourself, do you want to be married to someone you don't/can't trust? Even for the sake of your kids, is that relationship one that you want to model for them?

I only urge you NOT to interpret little gestures, incremental improvements, and cheap talk as in any way equivalent to the profound changes and serious work she would need to do. Don't allow hopefulness to skew your vision of reality.

Thanks, 545, TN and Riven.

Her heart really is nowhere near where it would need to be for even a chance at real reconciliation. I have not heard from her after I made it clear that the changes must be made *immediately*.

She is either weighing her options, risk/benefit analysis, or trying to figure out how serious I am.

Whatever. I have heard these words before. The only difference is the desperation and panic in them since I actually have commenced divorce. It is all really just some fancy hoovering. Just another cycle.

I am sure when we are Emailed the draft of our MSA her ugly side will re-emerge, since she is not getting everything and anything she wants. Which will be fine, since this always clears away the clouds of hope that tend to drift back in when she is being conciliatory.

The good news is that the intervals between hope and reality have become shorter.

For example, I must admit I felt a bit "high" yesterday, thinking "Maybe, just maybe...This time....Could it be?"

But today that is gone--but not replaced with the anguished despair I would have lapsed into a few months or even weeks ago. I cried a bit this morning, but that's it. Now I am OK and looking forward to picking up my kids from camp. I love them so much--more than ever for some reason. (???)

(But at six and nine, they drive me nuts.)

What I have found helps is thinking--and this may be childish--about the new woman who will come into my life eventually. Where is she? What is she like? Kind, empathetic, trustworthy, faithful, etc. :-)

Willful fantasy, but it really does help get me through this.

Oh, and Rivenheart, I just read your profile, specifically your list:

"Things I need/want for reconciliation/recovery"

I got only half way through this very reasonable list and I thought,

"Nope...No...No way would she do this...This she might do, but only for a little while, etc."

I guess unless I am so utterly wrong, this says it all, huh?

I am agreeing with the others and you, proceed with the D. If a new relationship were to develop later on, YOU would know what you can and cannot tolerate, what you are capable of should she choose to cheat again and how to cope better in that situation. Given all of that, you would also KNOW from the very start what to look for and what to do for YOU. This is a less co dependent YOU and a very wise you. This also gives you the choice to R or not down the line. Right now, the "if's" hang over your head, I get that. You are looking at them and recognize that her actions now don't come close to the actions that would bring "if's" to reality. Proceed with D, for YOU and your kids. Get YOU back first, then see if YOU really like the idea of her coming back.

I cried a bit this morning, but that's it. Now I am OK and looking forward to picking up my kids from camp. I love them so much--more than ever for some reason. (???)

Indifference is within sight. Keep at it. Spending time with my children now IS much better. I think it's because my attitude and general demeanor is much improved now that I am off the crazy train. I didn't realize how much dealing with a unremorseful WS drained the life out of me. As you continue detaching you will be amazed at how much brighter life in general seems. If I was a light bulb then during my M, the knob was slowly turned down until I was completely off. It happened so slowly and over time that I didn't even realize it happened. Once I detached and STBX was out of the house it was like the light was turned back on slowly over time. Everything is better without the negative influence around.

Build on the positive things going on with you now. It just gets better from here on out.

AD, wow! What a difference a few days makes! Good for you for staying strong! It sounds like you have her manipulation cycles down. It helps so much when you finally see things for what they really are. Glad also to hear that your times of despair are getting shorter and you are more quickly back at reality. THAT is a major change! I still have those moments myself, but knowing they don't bring me in to days of desapair is such a comfort to me now.

What I have found helps is thinking--and this may be childish--about the new woman who will come into my life eventually. Where is she? What is she like? Kind, empathetic, trustworthy, faithful, etc. :-)

I have the same thoughts and it helps me so much as well. Just yesterday I got some news that sent me whirling a bit, but I quickly remembered my list and thought ahead to when I have a relationship where I feel happy again. Yesterday, moments of despair; today, peace again.

Congrats on your progress, AD! Keep it up! :)

[This message edited by thenon-goddess at 8:48 PM, July 9th (Tuesday)]

Shit! Now I am depressed and crying and angry again! My kids and their friends are all here and all I can think about are the good times when we were all so happy when things were crazy and bustling like this.

Now this normal scene has lost its happiness for me. I would be busy making dinner, happily teaming up with my then-loving wife to get the kids in bed, looking forward to our time in bed holding each other, laughing and talking and making plans...

Now I have no umph to make dinner, and all I want to do is go to sleep.

A black cloud has suddenly descended upon me and the future looks just as bleak.

I know this is just a dip in the rollercoaster and i am indulging in some selective perception about our marriage, but in the moment it's just excruciating.

All I ever really wanted in life--or what took precedence--was a family. And our family was sacred. We called our home and family "the bubble"--a sanctuary against the world. It's all been cruelly snatched away by the very person I so lovingly worked hard with to create and protect. It's just so inconceivable, so shocking. I want it back desperately. But I know it cannot be restored with her. She is gone, permanently.

Just need a little pick-me-up, even if you are just repeating yourselves endlessly. Thanks as always, friends.

I have therapy tomorrow thank god. She is wonderful.

[This message edited by Abbondad at 7:15 PM, July 10th (Wednesday)]

always look on the bright side of life brother.

The bonding you do with your children now will never be forgotten.

Strength

Pick me up You are with your kids You can order pizza or make frozen pizza, they don't care You can still do all the fun things and put your kids to bed You can go to bed and watch a good movie or read. You will fall asleep knowing you made it through another day and over another hill You are doing this for YOU and your kids

Oh AD, my heart breaks for you. You are doing so well though my friend. I promise you. At least you are recognizing your life for the illusion it was.

It's so easy for us to get sucked back into that illusion and remember the "good times." But the truth is, that our WS didn't really get abducted by aliens and replaced by pod people. They truly were these broken shells to begin with. They were just able to hide the cracks with shiny paint for awhile.

I too get sucked back into what I thought was. What I thought we had. Who I thought we were. Then I go over my list and take a good hard look at his ACTIONS and I realize again that it wasn't real. He is not the man I thought he was. I always told myself that since I've known him since he was 14 that I knew the "real" person. Before the world jaded him. I was wrong. Even then he was hiding his brokenness. Because it existed even back then. It is who he is. And since he isn't willing to do any work to fix that brokenness, the man I thought he was or think he could be will never be. And it breaks my heart.

But I don't want to live in a bubble. I want to live in the real world, with real people. Honest, true, whole people. And so, I keep putting one foot in front of the other. And you are too.

Keep coming back here. We're all trudging with you and when you're too tired to go on, we'll pick you up and carry you for a bit.

(((HUGS))))

AD hang in there, it's not easy but you're doing great. It's ok to feel down, it's normal, not fun but part of the process. We're all rooting for you!

Keep fighting Ad, You know that I'm going through the exact same emotions as you.

I find myself daydreaming about my 'perfect' past and start to feel low.

I have to recognise I'm doing it and steel myself out of it otherwise I hit the vodka and cry.

The good days equal the bad days in number. Remember when there weren't any good days at all? Next month there will be more good days than bad.

You're doing the right thing and in the right direction.

It's shitter than anything else we've ever had to do. But we must.

[This message edited by allatsea at 5:04 AM, July 11th (Thursday)]

Thanks for your sympathy, everyone. Wow, this really is a roller coaster. For example, today I feel considerably better. Sheesh.

But I did have a distressing incident with my son this morning. I found him leading through a family photo album, sobbing. He then asked to talk to me, and said, "I feel we really ned to do things as a family. I feel like the world is coming to an end."

Of course I assured him, comforted him as best I could. It may coincide with the fact that today he and his sis are going with mom until Sunday.

I guess I could put a "positive" spin on the above. He DID ask to talk to me and expressed how he was feeling, which is what I always impress upon him--don't hold it in.

God, this is hard. And for the thousandth time, I am so so angry at all these WSs who so cruelly hurt their children chasing their selfish fantasies.

That is absolutely awesome. Expressing his feelings to you is incredible! Keep the lines of communication open.

"I feel we really ned to do things as a family. I feel like the world is coming to an end."

This is the time to explain the new family dynamic. The family is now you and them or her and them. Both of you(WW and yourself) still love and care for them, if anything more now than ever. However, there is no more Abbondad and WW. Hopefully WW will be on board to explain this and NOT put them in the middle.

He DID ask to talk to me and expressed how he was feeling, which is what I always impress upon him--don't hold it in.

It is extremely rare that a child would/could do this. If nothing else brother, that is something you need to take pride in. You done good with that.

I realize my earlier supportive comment was pithy. Hope you got the Monty Python reference. Their brand of irreverent humor took me through many a tough night. Enjoy the fact that your children were with their friends and living as "normal" a life as possible. Join in with them on their journey.

As always strength

Abbondad,

You are awesome and it's guys like you who love their children and love their WS even though she has killed the love that make me realize that there are better people out there in the world. I will probably always hope that my WS will become a better person, but until he does, I have to make life for me and my DS as safe as possible.

That is what you are doing right now. You still have the family bubble, it's just that she is on the outside now. I know I don't have to tell you that she has made the choices to bring all of this into your life and your children's lives....but that doesn't change the fact that it sucks.

Sending you lots of hugs and prayers and know that you are not alone.

Hi,

As I just posted on "Brother Allatsea's" thread, I spent much of the day with a female friend--just platonic, but one whom the WW was jealous of--who really lifted my spirits. Halfway through our time, I found myself thinking:

"What is this strange sensation? Oh my god, it's the absence of feeling like I'm going to die if I don't reconcile with my wife! I haven't even been thinking about her!"

In other words, I felt appreciated, validated, and valued. (It did not hurt that this woman showered me with compliments.). This high is still with me, and I took it to my therapist's just before, whom I haven't seen in a few weeks. She was amazed at my different demeanor.

I feel strong and determined--and angry, as the enormity of the emotional abuse I have endured is arriving with more and more clarity.

I am sure I will keep riding the rollercoaster as always--particularly as the WW just took the kids for a few days--but I feel for now a lifting in my soul.

I am going to be rereading this post--my own--in the days to come, for a reality-check and for inspiration in my darker moments.

I am going home tonight to my empty house--and I am not dreading it!

Thanks, everyone!

I am proud of you, Abbondad. You have come so far. Keep it up!!

Sight t/j for you, AD.

I felt appreciated, validated, and valued.

You made me remember the first time that I felt this way after my Dday. Thank you.

I had been accepted into a graduate-type school and was at an informal 'pre-school' cook-out. I hadn't invited Sultan because I wanted to go and be able to just be 'me' without him *hovering* and trying to either steal the show or sizing up his 'competition' to throw in my face months down the road. Anyway.

I got involved in a conversation with one of the professors who teaches Tax. And just a heads-up for you...in my marriage, I had kinda 'stepped back' and let Sultan handle all matters financial because he always dismissed my opinion on the subject. So I'm talking to this prof. And...OMG. She was actually LISTENING to me and considering my viewpoint! Asking me questions and whatnot.

She didn't get any type of *look* that signified that I was a moron. She didn't tell me that she was going to divorce me if I didn't stop saying what I was saying.

To be *heard* and have someone listen to me? It.Was.Amazing.

It was sooooo freaking nice to have a real conversation. Anyway. Just wanted to thank you because your words brought back that memory for me.

Now a slight 2x4.

Platonic. Really? Baloney. You need to check yourself. WW is jealous of said platonic friend. Platonic friend 'showers' you with compliments.....

Dude. Just call a spade a spade. And don't involve you platonic friend, who really doesn't seem that she wants to be so platonic, in your drama until that drama is in your rear-view mirror.

Other than all of that.....chin up and keep putting one foot in front of the other.

I think Abbondad can have a platonic female friend if he wants one.

I have a platonic male friend. He listens, he cares, he validates me. I do the same for him.

We ride bikes together once a week. That is pretty much our only interaction with each other.

It's like a second therapy session each week. We check in with each other, tell stories about what has been going on in our lives, ask for feedback, offer condolences, "wow, that sucks" and other such stuff.

Hug at the end, and that's it.

We both have very good boundaries. I made it clear I am not dating until I'm divorced, and he's not really my "type" and he made it clear that I'm definitely not his "type" since he is really attracted to girly-girls and I am definitely not one. We do not flirt with each other but we do offer sincere, honest, and very personal emotional support to each other.

It works for me because I have always had male friends as best friends my whole life. That, and I'm trustworthy and a woman of integrity and I don't send mixed signals or entertain ideas of "what if" we were dating.

We ARE JUST FRIENDS.

But, Abbondad, if you don't keep good boundaries you could ruin a good friendship. Think about it and act accordingly.

Hi, Everyone,

Well, it's five days after my STBXWW's emotional tirade, and no action whatsoever. So it was just fancy hoovering after all, manipulative self pity designed to get me to back off the divorce so she can continue cake-eating.

Last night she texted me about the kids (DD drawing pictures of our family all frowning was "normal" and "fine" and that WE are "wonderful parents"). Then she wanted to text about the divorce--the house finances, CS, etc. Proof positive that she would rather divorce than perform any work toward reconciliation and repairing the damage she has done to our family. (She also declined therapy.)

I evaded any discussion about the divorce--I don't want to talk about it except in mediation--and got off the phone.

I have to admit that I had still been holding that kernel of hope in my hand since her emotional words the other day, but I guess once she realized that I meant it when I said I needed to see immediate and protracted proactive actions from her to back up her words, she just didn't have it in her.

So nothing's changed after all. Not one damned thing. I am upset, but still very proud of myself that I did not cave to her tears and pretty words like I used to.

Thanks for your support...