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So the 17 December temp orders hearing isn't happening?

Nope. We were shot down on that. (See my earlier post.)

Very disappointing, as it permits her to continue her crap for almost another month (assuming mediation is a "success" and we don't have to go to trial on 1/24).

And continue she has... Probably emboldened by her prevailing at the judge's cancellation of the Temporary Relief hearing.

Oh, well. Whether mediation or trial, it will all be over soon.

If it weren't for my job and of course the kids, I would honestly move out of state. Possibly even out of country.

[This message edited by Abbondad at 8:00 AM, December 16th (Monday)]

If it weren't for my kids I would probably be swimming with the fishes.

[This message edited by allatsea at 8:24 AM, December 16th (Monday)]

"I want to talk on the phone, not write."

Of course she would, then she could say anything she wanted and not have any documentation of the contrary.

I agree, tell her that you will speak with her as long as she allows the recording of it, otherwise its via email.

I would be half tempted to record the conversations with the kids as well - but that would be oversteping a bit.

Very disappointing, as it permits her to continue her crap for almost another month

As much as you don't want to rock the boat, I worry that there is still a precedent being set that will cause you to be painted into a corner.

As much as you don't want to rock the boat, continuing to be her door matt may not be the better route.

Ugg...Abbandad, i am so frustrated FOR you - i am so sorry for you and the kids.

Hi, Everyone,

In case we go to trial, my attorney is asking for the names/addresses of my witnesses and "a brief description of what you expect them to testify."

Do I keep this simple? These are three neighbors (two of whom are law enforcement officers) who have known our family for ten years, and our children for all their lives.

They have witnessed that

I have been prime caregiver, home with my children Monday-Friday from the moment they get out of school.

I am extremely involved with my children, rarely inside the house when they are outside (particularly when they were younger, in which case they were never unsupervised by me)

I am extremely responsible and trustworthy with their children; they have slept over my house numerous times (before and after STBX moved out).

They have witnessed STBS's irresponsible and sometimes odd behavior: walking around the neighborhood naked but for a short slip; constantly texting while DD (three or four at the time) ran across the street; leaving the children (theirs and ours) in a store unsupervised, with their child having to call his father telling him he does not know where STBX went or when she would be back.

Most significantly--but possibly opening the door to an attack on me (though without foundation):

A year ago, after I'd come home from the hospital, nobody was home. I called STBX, who told me that the kids were at our neighbors' (two of the three witnesses') and she wanted me to leave the home. She implied that the children were in danger with me.

(I was flabbergasted at her insinuation, as well as at the fact that she'd been with me in the hospital hours before telling me how much she loved me.)

I refused. She called the two neighbors and told them she wanted the kids to stay with them that night. They refused and the kids stayed with me that night.

The telling points:

1) The witnessed did not believe I was a danger to the children

2) If STBX believed they were truly in danger, she would have either come to get them immediately or called the police. She did neither. Instead she stayed at her AP's apartment.

Thoughts?

A year ago, after I'd come home from the hospital,

Why were you in the hospital?

In case we go to trial, my attorney is asking for the names/addresses of my witnesses and "a brief description of what you expect them to testify."

Do I keep this simple? These are three neighbors (two of whom are law enforcement officers) who have known our family for ten years, and our children for all their lives.

How simple to keep it depends on the purpose and audience for the brief description. If it's for your attorney to know what to expect, I would give more information than I would if it's being shared with STBX's attorney.

First, and I apologize for bluntness, I have to say I am not surprised that you did not get a temp orders hearing with the trial date so close. I'm sort of surprised your lawyer wouldn't prepare you for that. Yes, she can and should advocate for you but the bottom line is always, as I have said, "wwjd". I don't think I have encountered a judge who, absent imminent danger to the children, would entertain temp orders that would last for less than a month. The judge would have been unlikely to issue a ruling that very same day, so by the time the ruling was issued (add on time for the holidays), the orders would have be in effect for three or four weeks. It sort of goes back to such advocacy on SI for "shark" attorneys, as if one who aggressively pounds an opponent will necessarily prevail. Yes, it helps to be aggressive, but it is not the final word on a good lawyer. Discretion is the better part of valor. Same with amassing piles of evidence in a binder. It may be a good thing to do, but make sure it is both admissible and probative. For example, documenting what stbx said to your dd doesn't tend to prove anything-- it is not likely to be "alienating", as you were not disparaged. The kids are going to want to be with one parent or another at different times. Your stbx can hardly say that she didn't want the kids for that weekend. Yes, she could have said it better, but she didn't make some grevious error. The kids need a consistent schedule, of course, no arguing with that.

Find out if her denial of pregnancy affects anything other than releasing you from presumptive fatherhood if she is, in fact, pregnant. If she denies it under oath, and there's nothing about her appearance that will suggests otherwise, they'll take her word for it. Pregnancy in my state is proof of adultery (once the paternity is established, after the baby is born), but if you did not allege adultery, then it may be irrelevant. So often, pregnancy during pendency, even who left the house first, doesn't affect the property settlement. Again, wwjd.

Clarification: her pregnancy during the pendency of your divorce. It won't be granted while she is pregnant, but I meant whether the fact that she became pregnant at that time would be a consideration.

I get that there is moral outrage surrounding this circumstance, but the law tends to be so much more dispassionate. You need a cool head for this. You know what your priorities are. Find out what the bottom line is. Regardless of who lives where, find out whether the judge will care. Your stbx retains an ownership interest in your house (most likely), find out what factors the judge will consider in awarding the right to live there. I left my former marital home, he still would have had to buy me out (we agreed on something else). If you cannot afford to buy out her interest, what are the consequences? These are the types of *business* decisions you are making.

As for witnesses, keep it brief. Just write their names and a brief statement of what they can tesitfy to. Establishing you as primary caregiver of the kids is usually an important point to make, for example. I don't know on which grounds you filed, but if it is anything but no fault, you may need witnesses for that too. You can ask your attorney what you need.

[This message edited by roughroadahead at 12:53 AM, December 17th (Tuesday)]

Ad,

Yep, keep it simple. The less information you can convey, the better. Keep her guessing as to what the witnesses will testify to.

Some of your witnesses might not have to be listed. If you can anticipate some of the things she will be testifying to, line up *rebuttal* witnesses who will contradict her testimony. They do not have to be listed as they would not be called upon unless she makes claims that they *rebut*.

Are you planning on using the kids counselors, teachers and/or physicians? Definitely list them. It will definitely give her pause.

Strength

Roughroadahead,

Thank you. I am getting the idea especially now that I witnessed the factory-like processing that is the reality of our court system. Yes, totally dispassionate. Quite depressing. But it is what it is. I never seriously entertained pie-in-the-sky expectations of me prevailing at trial just because I am in the right, morally. Thank you for taking time to offer such a lengthy and helpful response.

Lots for me to mull over.

Why were you in the hospital?

This was one of the worst days leading up to that horrific night.

I had gotten into a very emotional phone discussion with STBX, in which I ended up essentially pleading with her not to continue her adultery. I worked myself up to the point that I vomited blood. Went to the hospital where they performed an endoscopy. (Nothing serious.)

(Yep, this is what infidelity can do to you!)

And when I was checking in the admitting nurse asked a routine question: whether I had suicidal ideation. I said (truthfully) no. So STBX --who had rushed to be by my side, the dear--says to me something like, "Don't you?"

I replied--ever the philosopher--"Well, everyone must think about it at some point but not necessarily seriously..."

STBX: "So you have thought about it."

Me (not yet recognizing the manipulative evil in her): "I suppose..."

Bingo: Nurse notes that patient has had suicidal ideation and I end up being evaluated by the attending psychiatrist before being discharged. No evidence of craziness found.

So a few months ago, STBX writes in an email to me (cc'd to her attorney, not bcc'd, the idiot) that I was "hospitalized for depression." Uh, no, fool, it was called 'an upper endoscopy' and I have the discharge papers to prove it--as well as the psychiatrist's report.

Upon my attorney's advice, I refuted her email line-by-line -- and bcc'd my attorney, not cc'd her. :-)

I would love for her to bring up this episode in court. Between the two of us, only one has ever been admitted to a psychiatric hospital. And guess what? It's not me.

Thanks for sharing,

This was one of the worst days leading up to that horrific night.

I had gotten into a very emotional phone discussion with STBX, in which I ended up essentially pleading with her not to continue her adultery. I worked myself up to the point that I vomited blood. Went to the hospital where they performed an endoscopy. (Nothing serious.)

(Yep, this is what infidelity can do to you!)

And when I was checking in the admitting nurse asked a routine question: whether I had suicidal ideation. I said (truthfully) no. So STBX --who had rushed to be by my side, the dear--says to me something like, "Don't you?"

I replied--ever the philosopher--"Well, everyone must think about it at some point but not necessarily seriously..."

STBX: "So you have thought about it."

Me (not yet recognizing the manipulative evil in her): "I suppose..."

Bingo: Nurse notes that patient has had suicidal ideation and I end up being evaluated by the attending psychiatrist before being discharged. No evidence of craziness found.

So a few months ago, STBX writes in an email to me (cc'd to her attorney, not bcc'd, the idiot) that I was "hospitalized for depression." Uh, no, fool, it was called 'an upper endoscopy' and I have the discharge papers to prove it--as well as the psychiatrist's report.

Upon my attorney's advice, I refuted her email line-by-line -- and bcc'd my attorney, not cc'd her. :-)

I would love for her to bring up this episode in court. Between the two of us, only one has ever been admitted to a psychiatric hospital. And guess what? It's not me.

*IF* your divorce goes to trial, you do understand the *great importance* of short, concise answers?

“Yes, WW was hospitalized in <name of psychiatric hospital> for <#> days in <month, year>. No, I have never been admitted for psychiatric care.

Get the facts out, without a lot of emotion.

Keep it Simple, Sir!

Have a friend or your brother, or a member of your university's Dispute Resolution Center, quiz you on short, emotion-free answers. Don't let your wife, or wife's lawyer, rattle you!

If the list is for your attorney, make sure she has all the information she needs and will not be surprised by anything a witness might say.

((AD))

I just wanted to say that I know what your going thru. I have seen all of that in the last 3+ yrs also.

Be reminded that the judge is a person and will take into account what has happened in the case in the past. Theywant to get your case off their docket and probably did cancel the temp mtg because you have a trial date.

Remain factual. The judge will be looking to the law. There is no feeling there, just the and proof. Keep out emotions.

Your ex will try to sway the judge with whatever they have got and don't be afraid to tell your lwyer right then and there if these start to take a downward turn. Prepare and have all your points in writing so you don't forget things you want.

Funny that your wife thinks that your episode of hemataemesis is equal to a psych inpatient stay.

She is the one that needs a psych vacation. Wow.

Yes I agree you need to be very to the point, and yes your Medical Record may indicate "suicidal ideation" and you can explain that your wife manipulated the situation. Did you have to go through an evaluation by a psychiatric nurse,counselor, or pscyhiatrist prior to discharge to home? If not then they hospital did not consider you to be a risk, if they did you would have had to have a full evaluation, prior to releasing you.

I am sorry that things have been in a state of upheaval for you, but know that the end of the road is getting closer for this whole crazy mess. Stay strong.

(((and strength AD))))

Did you have to go through an evaluation by a psychiatric nurse,counselor, or pscyhiatrist prior to discharge to home? If not then they hospital did not consider you to be a risk, if they did you would have had to have a full evaluation, prior to releasing you.

TN,

Yes, the attending hospital psychiatrist was required to evaluate me prior to release due to I assume the admitting nurse's one entry--as well as my STBX's behind-the-scenes pushing them to not release me without a psych eval. (She basically told me this later--because she "loved me and cared about me so much.")

As he was asking me questions, he even muttered to himself something like, "I'm not sure why we need to go through this..." (obviously I was completely coherent and utterly rational) before concluding by saying, "I see no reason to keep you here. Take care and have a good day."

All in the hospital record in my possession(except for the psych's verbatim oral comments of course): "esophagitis" or something. "Eval by Louis Gold, MD., recommend sleep aid. Discharge."

Something along those lines. Absurd. If she really wants to go there, bring it. Along with the damning evidence that I--gasp--play video games.

AD, Saw your PM, and this response.

I honestly think this is even better than not having an eval. You have proof by a professional that you were in fact more than ok, and that your wife was manipulating the whole thing behind the scenes.

The Psych that did your eval, should have done a "suicidal eval" to determine if you were and your level of intent, if you can get your hands on that as part of the MR then you will really be in good shape. If he didn't even bother with it, then I would verify the policy with the hospital and have that documented, and believe me they will have a policy on how to proceed with "suicidal" or "questionably suicidal patients"

You are strong, you are fierce, and you are going to be more than ok at the end of all this.

behind-the-scenes pushing them to not release me without a psych eval.

Hmm . . . makes me wonder what her motivation was?

Perhaps she was looking for free time to sext, call, what have you with her affair partner.

As an intimidation tactic, I would have my attorney ask for her phone records from that evening.

If you determine that she was in contact with her affair partner during the same time she was urging that you be evaluated you can dispel any assertions that her motivation was concern for you.

Hmm . . . makes me wonder what her motivation was?

Perhaps she was looking for free time to sext, call, what have you with her affair partner.

It absolutely was this, Alphakitte.

Like I said, I came home from the hospital and she was gone. Without the kids. She was upset because I'd been released earlier than she thought, despite her Machiavellian machinations.

She also (stupidly) called me from her boyfriend's phone. She was with him, having dumped the kids at the neighbors.

No kids, husband in hospital=time with affair partner.

Scary, insidious stuff. Thank you for the suggestion about the phone records.

She also (stupidly) called me from her boyfriend's phone.

See if you can find/obtain your records that prove where that call originated from and from his phone number.

That way you don't need to ask for her phone records, your records will prove out.

This way you can trap her if she alludes to your psych val, etc. and she can be questioned as to where she was, etc. If she lies your attorney can ask her why the phone records prove different. Thus leading to her questionable motivations.

Hi, Everyone,

This is an email I just sent to my attorney. Please let me know your thoughts on the matter it addresses as it pertains to our upcoming mediation (or subsequent trial). Thank you in advance! As always, your feedback is invaluable.

Good morning...

Can you ask STBX's attorney if he knows where STBX will be residing after her lease is up in January? I assume he would want to have this information prior to mediation or trial and thus likely does have it.

In the normal course of a co-parenting relationship I myself would ask such a simple question of her or she would proactively inform me, since this is important as it immediately involves the children. However, communication has broken down between us. She has been texting, voice mailing and emailing me to talk to her on the phone. I have tacitly refused, as she has on the phone been hostile, disrespectful, accusatory and even threatening. I have ended up having to hang up on her.

(She continues to refuse to respond to many of my emailed inquiries on important matters.)

I have attempted to find out from DS where his mother is moving, and from his reaction (extreme unease, anxiety and reluctance to tell me, as well as a few revealing things he has said) I suspect she will be moving into OM's apartment.

If this is the case I have concerns (as does my therapist, if it matters): DD sleeps with STBX every night and I believe DS still does as well. (They sleep in their own beds at home.) I would like to know what the sleeping arrangements will be at OM's: For example, if she indeed is moving there, how many bedrooms are there?

(He lives in a yacht club in the town of X, quite a bit farther from the children's primary residence and their school.)

Even if she is not moving there I still would like to know where DS and DD will be staying during overnights likely less than a month from now.

Finally, if she is attempting to keep this information "under wraps" until her lease is up thinking that she may be able to move back into our home and I move out (or if not, that our home will be on the market before her lease is up), I will reiterate: this is non-negotiable. Forcing me out after she has moved out twice would be emotionally catastrophic for the children. I am not being hyperbolic.

Thank you,

Abbondad