SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

You seem to not get it because you had trouble getting sex from women. You find it hard to believe that there is really no shortage of women who are pursuers or looking for NSA. You think sex is a short commodity for men, thus it has higher validation value to men. I, again, urge that there are plenty of these kind of women. I know. I was one of them. My WS also managed to find quite a few of them. You just have to know where to look.

I think that many men would echo my comments, sex is/was a precious thing because it's hard to get. But, even if you're right, and I'm a bit of an outlier, economics tells us that there are plenty of other guys on this island with me. What's the economic value of non-gay sex with an attractive man? About 0. The economic value of sex with an attractive woman? Hundreds of dollars per hour. It's a simple supply/demand thing, there are more than enough attractive men to go around to meet female sexual demands, and so few attractive women to meet male sexual demands that they are paid better than lawyers. Is there a source of NSA sex with attractive women that's available to most men for free? I'd argue no, there isn't, or "free" is too high a price to pay because it's too time consuming/difficult/morally problematic to lie or some other reason. But, economics tells the story here, so distinctly, in fact, that it's almost amazing, there's simply no value at all in NSA sex with an attractive man for women or else there would be guys selling it. There aren't, in fact it's such a foreign concept that we make jokes and comedic movies about it.

Being sexually desired is validating. But the reasons why vary. It might be a shortage of sex. It might be feeling unattractive (that was me). It might be sexual abuse. It might be rejection from a parent that is contorted into something sexual. Sex says: you are ok, in some way.

And see, I guess in my mind, I can't understand why someone would think that. Sex doesn't say "your OK" it says "I was horny" (at worst) or "Your pretty enough to sleep with" (at best, but, this is a low bar for me and a lot of other men if there are no demands of fidelity/commitment or anything beyond sex). Your OK enough to marry? Now that's a high bar. OK enough to leave my W for? Another high bar. But OK enough for sex? That's a bar that's just above "OK enough to hold the door open for at the grocery store". Again, this is all speaking for myself when I was out looking for NSA sex, but, I'll say, me having sex with you meant almost nothing about you as a person other than you said yes. I might really enjoy it, I usually did, but that wasn't as much about the woman as it was about how much I liked to have sex.

You seem to also have trouble because you never had bad sex, and find it difficult to believe because of your experience. Your experience is only yours. At some point, I feel like you'll have to accept that your experience is not the only way to experience sex in order for you to make sense of it.

I think we might be saying the same thing differently. I've never had bad sex doesn't mean that I didn't have sex that I regretted. I did. A lot. Either women I didn't find attractive, women who for social reasons I shouldn't have slept with, women who I later found were in a relationship. But did I enjoy the sex with them? Yes, I did. So, have sex I didn't enjoy? No, I enjoyed the sex universally. Have sex that I regretted having? Yes, quite a bit.

At this point, it's that you refuse to accept what does not seem logical to you. The problem with believing that we need to understand and be able to relate to and agree with other people's experiences to believe them true is that it supposes we know everything already. And we don't. Are you open to learning that this experience was very validating for her, even though you can't fully understand it?

I think, at the heart of it, I just need to accept "it's not logical". It's not about seeing the logic here, or refusing the accept the logic. I just don't think it's logical. She does say that the A was very validating. She maintains the sex wasn't important to her. And that's pretty common, which is why I asked the original question, if the A was very validating, and the sex wasn't important, why have it, especially when it's something you "don't value" (her words)? That's what prompted the entire discussion. If my W as the only person saying it, I'd just think "she's lying". But I see it quite often on WW threads, and I wanted to understand the logic that leads one to do something like that when they are already getting what they want from the relationship.. It would be like my employer paying me a million dollars a year to put in 5 hours a week. They come to me and ask if I'd like to make 1.1 million, but I'll need to put in 80 hours a week. No, thank you, I'm already getting what I want from this relationship and I'm not "risking" much of my time. From my perceptive, it's perfect, little work, great pay, little risk. Why put myself into this crazy high pressure situation for the other 100K? No need to answer, I know it's all rhetorical at this point. I'm going to say, I appreciate everyone talking through it with me. I think I have a much better understanding, but I still don't understand, if that makes sense?

[This message edited by Rideitout at 10:15 AM, July 5th (Thursday)]

I was wondering the same thing. Is this just semantics, "validation" is a way of saying "I like sex"? Or is it the literal meaning of validation? If it's the second, I really don't understand how sex is validating to women; I'm not trying to be sexist, but, this is just one of those areas where there are marked differences between the sexes. Validating to men, yes, because it's hard to get and because it's very highly valued for most of us. But, for women; if you're offering NSA sex (which is basically what an A often is), and you put a post on any message board or hang a sign on your front door, you'll have a line of guys around the block ready to take you up on that.

Sexual validation comes in a lot of different forms. Even for men. Some men get validation from the fact they could sleep with a certain woman. Some get it from the fact that they work very hard to please the woman and get a lot out of being successful at it. Some men get validation from the woman fawning all over them and making them feel virile. I could go on and on.

For women, sometimes the validation is about being attractive/desirable. Sometimes it's about being able to be in control or pleasing their mate, sometimes it could be about how hard the person worked to please them, and again I could go on. You are assuming sex has no value to us because "we can get it all we want". That's really useless thinking. We don't want to have people lined up the block to have sex with us nor do we see it in those terms.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:08 AM, July 5th (Thursday)]

You are ok enough to have sex with is very validating for someone who was rejected for many years and was NOT ok enough for a long while. I know. That was me.

Again, sex says you are ok, in some way. For a broken person, being ok in any way is better than being NOT ok.

No, we are not saying the same thing. I have had sex I regretted but liked. But, I have also had flat out bad sex. I didn't even O until I was married to WS. See my prior posts on this thread.

Again, different perspectives. And to get it, you'll have to accept your perspective is not everyone's.

Again, different perspectives. And to get it, you'll have to accept your perspective is not everyone's.

That's the reason for this thread. And I don't want anyone to mistake my meaning, I need to really understand something to internalize it. If one of you could just say "it's validating" and I could say to myself "well, that's the answer", I think that's what I'd do. So, when I come back and say, "why is it validating" and give examples of why I think it wouldn't be, that's me trying to understand. Not because I think your answer is wrong, because I truly don't understand it. And although we go round and round a bit, this thread has been very helpful to me in a lot of ways; I sense frustration that I'm still asking "why". Trust me, my wife sympathizes with all of you. The instant I know the why (for anything), I shut up. Until then, I can play a bit part of a collegiate debate team.

I think that many men would echo my comments, sex is/was a precious thing because it's hard to get.

Eh. Sex is/was precious not because it was hard to get, but because it was unique. I gave up having sex with other women when I got married. I could have not gotten married and floated through life with a series of women and probably been happy sexually. I gave that freedom up in marriage under the assumption that... well, everything one assumes happens at marriage. That this freedom I forego was a trade and a contract and an agreement to pursue something greater.

There are a lot costs women and men pay when we get married. A lot. And much of the pain I had once faced over betrayal was that I paid those costs willingly but didn't get what I bargained for. That my expectations were shot.

But I have the distinct impression that this thread is so long because you refuse to get it, not because you don't. So I will end my explaining here.

So, while you ladies have done a great job of explaining, there is a part of this question that goes back to the great 'Why?!?!?!?!?!?' that we all face. Please don't assume someone doesn't get it or isn't listening or that anyone here doesn't appreciate the time and care you put into your response. I do. I know others here do too.

Just be patient, as sometimes an answer is hard to face.

I'd like to point out the answer I gave on page 1 of this whole thing. That was the conclusion I arrived at after months of facing the same pain and anger and injustice associated with the question rio asked.

Am I wrong? For me, with my ww, I know I am perfectly right. For another dudes ww? Fuck if I know. There were quite a few ww's posting here at the time that helped me understand. Darknessfalls was one. And despite their explanations, it still took time to sink in. Because their explanations were part of their storied and impacted by their views. Some I could understand, some I couldn't, and some didn't apply to my situation at all.

I'm greatful then and now for their support and patience. My absorption rate of nonfart related information is probably around 15%. On good days.

I disagree with those who say that this was illogical. Understanding that explaining a thing isn't the same as excusing it, but in the vein of explaining a thing, a person who has reached a place of low self-esteem specifically about sex -- in other words, a person who feels sexually undesirable -- will seek the ego kibble of "you are an amazingly sexual person."

As Hiking and others have indicated, this could be partially or totally unconscious. From my perspective, though, it makes total sense that she would choose a POSOM who gushed with flattery and praise so quickly. This is a person who will almost certainly follow up with cloying praise about the sex, a "safe" choice if she is going to go physical because she wants praise about her sexuality.

No, we are not saying the same thing. I have had sex I regretted but liked. But, I have also had flat out bad sex. I didn't even O until I was married to WS. See my prior posts on this thread.

Yes. I second this. I have most assuredly had really bad sex. Like really wondering if I could hang in there with him to the end. I have had good sex I have regretted as well. And, I have had good sex that never resulted in an orgasm.

I, too, have had some spectacularly awful sex. And I have had fantastic sex that in the end I had some regret over. Not all sex is created equally. And the reasons for having sex change with each person. For example, the first person I had sex with was a senior in high school while I was a freshman. I had sex with him so I wouldn't be called a loser. That was bad sex that I still regret. In the many years since I gave had sex with men because I wanted to, I was drunk, I loved them, it was expected, and any other reason you can think of. It has always depended on where my head was and the man in question.

Owningitnow said:

T/J:

Cheatee, maybe you've said somewhere and I didn't see, but what happened to end the marriage? What happened after the A? Did you attempt reconciliation?

Your bio mentions 'ugliness.' I'm sorry

No worries. Typical affair stuff - early warning sign was a campaign of villification, telling me I was a broken person while she was fully actualized thanks to her work in AA. Said she probably wanted a divorce, "just not right now." After 5 months of this emotional torture, I found evidence of her affair. Confrontation, she crumbled and begged for a 2nd chance. It was okay at first, but as teen daughter found out (read Mom's emails) and became furious, Mom melted down, threatened suicide, screaming to her own daughter's face that her suicidal impulses were all her (daughter's) fault. At that point, daughter projected all her anger at me (the safe parent). XWW was relieved and happy that she was escaping her own daughter's wrath and began encouraging the anger toward me.

Things got worse and worse, with XWW telling me "I forgave myself..." stalking me on private forums to find fodder for new arguments, looking for ways to find me at fault for her own behavior.

Finally after a year, she snapped and went into a long, hurtful diatribe, attacking my most vulnerable areas of self-doubt and pain. Her willingness to go to this place proved to me beyond any doubt that she was irredeemably untrustworthy, a characterization her subsequent behavior has only reinforced.

I was willing to do almost anything to make it work, but I was not willing to take the ongoing abuse from someone who was unable to control her angry impulses and put them onto someone, repeatedly, to whom she had made the ultimate promise to.

I was willing to do almost anything to make it work, but I was not willing to take the ongoing abuse from someone who was unable to control her angry impulses and put them onto someone, repeatedly, to whom she had made the ultimate promise to.

Wow. Just brutal.

The ultimate insult to injury is a cheating spouse who does not immediately and fully get down and dirty with why they chose this ugly path to soothe whatever was hurting. No matter the reason for their hurt, the ugly choice of "solution" needs to be confronted honestly. Without that, your life holds nothing but problems and new problems.

So very sorry.

I am assuming she is still all kinds of messed up?

Was she angry you pursued divorce?

And see, I guess in my mind, I can't understand why someone would think that. Sex doesn't say "your OK" it says "I was horny" (at worst) or "Your pretty enough to sleep with" (at best, but, this is a low bar for me and a lot of other men if there are no demands of fidelity/commitment or anything beyond sex). Your OK enough to marry? Now that's a high bar. OK enough to leave my W for? Another high bar. But OK enough for sex? That's a bar that's just above "OK enough to hold the door open for at the grocery store". Again, this is all speaking for myself when I was out looking for NSA sex, but, I'll say, me having sex with you meant almost nothing about you as a person other than you said yes. I might really enjoy it, I usually did, but that wasn't as much about the woman as it was about how much I liked to have sex.

I think what you're missing here is that there is a real power dynamic as a woman involving sex. Not power over a man, not that this man in particular is all that important, but it's the way you feel when you're being yourself in all your sexual glory. I enjoyed casual sex and ONS. Experiences like that aren't about the partner. They're about yourself. I like sex a lot. I like sex a whole lot when I feel like I can stroll in like a sex goddess and really have fun with it. The validation isn't so much about the man. It's about that feeling of sexual power when you see that the man really wants you and driving him crazy with it. It's a huge turn-on. The man may never want to call me or date me and so what? The experience was about me all along anyway.

^^^^ Yes. Exactly.

Because, in my (perhaps twisted) view of the world, a lot of women feel bad about having sex. They don't feel (or at least they SAY they don't feel) validated, they feel like something was taken from them.

With the type of men you know and hang out with and the ones you know that have affairs just for what they say is sex. With what you have explained as your own sexual conquests before marriage. I wouldn't be surprised that you have this view. All your seeing is the physical act without the emotional attachment to it. I mean really, you have only recently realized that sex is your validation of love. Maybe you should try watching some of those romance movies (my sister-in-law) is a huge fan of and see how some women want and enjoy sex when they find a partner that meets the needs they want. Just think about the stuff you did when you tried to bed a woman. Now do that for a long period of time and keep doing it. Don't you think a woman would want you more and enjoy the sex? You stated yourself that you weren't filling your wife's emotional needs, so she didn't want to fill yours. Maybe because you weren't filling hers she felt less sexual desire for you because she didn't have the intimacy being built from you ego boosting her. I know my wife enjoys sex more when her love languages is met a lot more and frees her to relax in it. I also notice that if I do something over the top to please her and make her happy, she wants to be more intimate. Sex is whatever. Intimacy with your sexual partner is what is hard to get.

Plus what Hardroadout stated. Some women are very sexually motivated. My APs acted very sexual in their whole character, but what I did for them is give them my ear and constantly, I mean constantly had to validated them. "Yes, you are awesome. Yes, everyone likes you. Yes, you are the best worker. No, so and so isn't mad at you. No, don't worry about this. Who gives a shit what they think, they are an asshole. You are right. Yes, you look this. Blah Blah Blah. Non-stop." Oh, an instant attention. She texts, I better answer right away or she got bitchy.

sex is/was a precious thing because it's hard to get.

I disagree. It is really easy to get. Feed the other's needs/wants and it is easy to get.

None of this is logical because you don't have the same love language as your wife. Your also probably not going to understand any of it because you are a male and woman see things differently and you are not capable of seeing it through their eyes.

Sexual validation for me is the more woman that want me, the more validated I feel. I don't have to have sex to feel it. Just that the woman wants to do it. The act is just a stress release for me. Enjoyable yes. Intimate yes. But, I don't feel validation from the act itself. I don't get an "I'm the man" sexual validation by bagging as many woman as possible that some men do. I would get more validation if they want to have it and chase me. I enjoy chasing and I enjoy being chased, that part of sex is validating. I was a computer nerd/geek my younger life before I started hanging out with my wife in my 20's. I didn't have a normal teen life. I aged better. Grew into myself and when I got power- I found I was desired more. My APs didn't want me. They wanted the benefits of a man in power.

I disagree. It is really easy to get. Feed the other's needs/wants and it is easy to get.

Yes, I agree, if..

I mean constantly had to validated them. "Yes, you are awesome. Yes, everyone likes you. Yes, you are the best worker. No, so and so isn't mad at you. No, don't worry about this. Who gives a shit what they think, they are an asshole. You are right. Yes, you look this. Blah Blah Blah. Non-stop." Oh, an instant attention.

You're willing to lie. Now, I'm not saying that's what you did, but if your AP wasn't all those things, then, basically, you were doing what I used to do. Figure out the right combo of lines, time them right.. Yeah, sex is easy to get if you do that, I agree. Be authentic though? Well, that's a whole different story, and, in my experience, sex is near impossible to get in that situation. And I'm sure some of that is me, my personality, who I really am, isn't that attractive to women. So for other people, I'm sure it's different. But for me, the thought of trying to date again without re-reading all the guides, memorizing all the lines again.. That sounds like a long hot desert of involuntary celibacy.

The problem is, personally and professionally, if you're only bringing "the truth" to your business meetings, your friends, your dates.. You're bringing a plastic knife to a gun fight. Because, lets make this about something non-sexual for a minute, when I sit down at a table for a business meeting, everyone there is inflating their importance, talking way out of their league, saying things in my area of expertise that I know are just completely wrong. And if you're not willing to engage in it, you're the wallflower. Same with dating, the guys are talking about how they have the most important job in the world (janitor) and the women are talking about how much they love to have sex 18 times a day. If you bring the truth; I'm a janitor, the job sucks, but I'm hoping for better; I don't really like sex that much, but I enjoy making my boyfriend happy.. Well, guess what? You just got outgunned by the person who was willing to say "whatever it takes" on the date. Shoot, not diving into politics, but how many recent elections have gone to people who do just that, say whatever to get elected, who cares if it's true as long as it works?

I know, way off topic now. It's my thread, I'll TJ it if I want to?

The problem is, personally and professionally, if you're only bringing "the truth" to your business meetings, your friends, your dates.. You're bringing a plastic knife to a gun fight. Because, lets make this about something non-sexual for a minute, when I sit down at a table for a business meeting, everyone there is inflating their importance, talking way out of their league, saying things in my area of expertise that I know are just completely wrong. And if you're not willing to engage in it, you're the wallflower. Same with dating, the guys are talking about how they have the most important job in the world (janitor) and the women are talking about how much they love to have sex 18 times a day. If you bring the truth; I'm a janitor, the job sucks, but I'm hoping for better; I don't really like sex that much, but I enjoy making my boyfriend happy.. Well, guess what? You just got outgunned by the person who was willing to say "whatever it takes" on the date. Shoot, not diving into politics, but how many recent elections have gone to people who do just that, say whatever to get elected, who cares if it's true as long as it works?

I guess I can concede to this to some degree if all you are looking for is a ONS. But, if you are talking about what dating actually looks like, I have a lot of single friends who would be dying to see the authenticity.

You said something I believe is true - that bit about the pool of men willing to be WH's or OM's would only have a certain type of man in it. It was in your bit about the prison fight.

I will turn that around on you and tell you the same thing - if you are in the dating pool to actually meet someone you like or could have a relationship with, dropping all the lines and lies at the door would be the way to go. The ones who are worth anything would see through it, and the ones who fall for it, well that pool is rancid and likely to draw out someone low quality.

The validation isn't so much about the man. It's about that feeling of sexual power when you see that the man really wants you and driving him crazy with it. It's a huge turn-on.

This exactly! This was the case with my wife as well. For my wife, external validation meant being desired by someone other than her husband. Throughout our marriage, I always told my wife how beautiful and wonderful she is. She just assumed that's just what "nice" married guys say to their wives. The validation I provided held very little meaning to her ego. However, having a younger, player desire her (she referred to OM as her "bad boy") and was willing to have sex with her, well that did wonders for her ego. This was the proof her ego craved to convince herself that she was a still a very desirable woman and not some boring middle aged SAHM. As long as she could sustain the affair, she could now love herself by proving that she was no longer that boring SAHM that she now despised and hated.

The external validation, the need to be desired, can consume a wayward spouse. The obsession goes beyond good or bad sex. As others have said, good sex is a bonus, but nor required. The only thing that is required is feeding the obsession to maintain the relationship (limerence) which includes all aspects of a relationship. Having sex is not necessarily a rational or logical thought process, it's more about doing whatever it takes to keep the AP in the relationship.

[This message edited by HardenMyHeart at 3:23 PM, July 5th (Thursday)]

Hardenmyheart is 100% correct. To solve for X, you just need to figure out what the specific validation was for your wife. Was it emotional intimacy, feeling desired, feeling the need to be able to experiment and feel powerful in her sexuality, etc...it could be a lot of things. If you find that you will be able to work on this a lot better.

I can guarantee that it's not for her what it is for you...she wasn't dying to perform like a porn star. That was the trade for whatever x is.

The validation I provided held very little meaning to her ego. However, having a younger, player desire her (she referred to OM as her "bad boy") and was willing to have sex with her, well that did wonders for her ego.

Any sign of this school of thought will be forever a hard stop in a relationship for me. The hint of slippery behavior, let me show you to the door.

If someone isn't enough for themselves, they never will be.

Harden and Hiking: yes, this is what I've also been saying. The ego kibble she wanted wasn't, "You are so beautiful" or such. It was "You are so good at having sex. You are so sexually desirable."

To me another telling point from RIO's posts is that his WW's AP apparently showered her with flattery almost right away. In other words, it sounds like he was genuinely infatuated with her. If what she really wanted was the validation of her value as a sexual being, choosing him was a safe choice for her because there would be a high likelihood he would continue to find her desirable even after the clothes came off and the deed was done. This would be an important choice issue for a person with a lurking feeling of sexual undesirability.

Xhz— validation because one is not enough for themselves is a big root cause for the majority of affairs. It’s coupled with other crappy coping mechanisms and decisions and shitty behavior but this is a big thing as a wayward you have to identify md correct to become a safe partner for your bs. I won’t speak for hardheart but the likely reason he knows this information and is still married is his wife did work to correct it. If not still married a big reason would be she did not. I️ actively work on this daily. People can change if they are motivated to do so.