SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Oin - yeah life can get pretty empty without people to share it with.

Isolation can and does cause all sorts of mental issues, starting with depression and getting worse from there.

I'm not saying everyone wants to or needs to or should get married or have a loving ltr.

What I'm saying is that if we don't connect and bond with other people it does effect us and it effects us in negative ways.

People who use other people or take advantage of them are substituting that in place of healthier relationships. I'm sure over a period of time those unhealthy relationships do poison the other healthier relationships they have with others.

I don't think someone can be a part-time d*ck without eventually turning into a full time d*ck.

Rideitout, you have a pm

Totally deserved that, and just wanted to apologize to anyone offended what I said. I find it very hard to speak sometimes without generalizing because it's how I parse things down and try to understand an individual's actions, by looking at large groups and saying to myself "this person is doing something that seems similar to what this large group of people does, therefore, they are ...". I certainly didn't mean, and don't mean to disrespect either men or women via this generalization; of course, all this mental brainpower is being used for a single goal "figure out my wife"; a goal that I feel like I have to do if I hope to successfully R. It's her I really want the answers from, but sadly, she can't give them to me because even if she is telling the truth, I won't believe it, her motivation to lie (as well as her skill at lying, as proven during the A) is simply far too high. So I spend a lot of time here trying to figure out "what does my wife mean when she says" which turns into "what do women mean when they say" or less often "what does a WS mean when they". What I really want to know is why the heck did my wife "take it physical", not "why do women". Sadly, nobody here can answer that for me, but, I will say, those who hung in with my back and forth and debate, you gave me a lot to think about.

I don't feel like I am white knuckling it either.

Turning the lens around for a moment, I'll say, for a long time in my relationship with my W, I did feel like I was white knuckling it. Still do at times. But, I'll also say, what I can call "white knuckling" is pretty much exactly the same thing that I can also call "boundaries". To me, that means staying away from women I find attractive, avoiding situations where I could interact 1-1 with them, avoiding any kind of "intimate" activities (meals together, phone calls, chats/IM's at work, basically anything private). Those are my boundaries. Those boundaries were hard to enforce in the beginning, I liked the attention from women, and it was hard to let that go at times. Now, many years later, it's become second nature, I don't miss it at all anymore and it's just become part of who I am.

This has been one of the most enlightening, if depressing threads I've read on here to do with sexual attraction/relationships between men and women, regardless of infidelity.

I agree, and will close with another thank you. I know this was triggering to some people (myself included, hence my chat with a mod after losing my cool and posting something that was way off topic and inappropriate) and for that I apologize. But I learned a lot and will continue the conversation more carefully in the future. I think many BS's have a question like this, for me, it was "why physical", but it could be anything important to you as a BS personally. Why did you have to tell her you loved her, why did you have to introduce her to our kids, why did bring her to our house/bed, why, why, why.. "Why" is the fundamental question for me, and I think many others coming out of an A, and the why's that we most want to know are those where the knife really twists. The things that are most painful to us personally especially when those things are either unimportant to the WS or completely irrelevant details that can be easily foreseen as causing very serious damage to the BS after D-day. Why couldn't you have stopped with a knife wound instead of pulling out the gun and shooting me a dozen times? The knife hurt, the gun might kill me.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 4:59 AM, July 6th (Friday)]

I agree that “white knuckling” can be the same as having boundaries. “White knuckling” is seen as a pejorative term here but I actually think that for people who need to be vigilant about their behavior, feelings, and thoughts, it’s a hell of a lot better than being complacent.

It is about the sex. There are a million different ways to say it and a lot of times men and women use words differently (maybe starting with the fact that they perceive things differently). But words can mean different things to different people.

Sex and the word sex is a blunt instrument for men. For women it is a much more specific thing. Flirting, touching , romantic talking , everything that leads up to sex just sounds like sex to men. All of it tied together as part of sex.

I think women tend to only look at the smallest part of that as being about sex. So all of the flirty talking, spendingtime is about something else - emotional. I think many men would say all of that stuff was about sex.

What can be infuriating is to hear a story that sounds like it was all about sex ( to men) but then hear that it was actually not about sex. It’s like being told the sky isn’t blue. So then how did you end up in bed if all of the stuff that happened was basically platonic - It doesn’t make sense and things can’t just not make sense.

I know there are a lot of generalizations here, which was its own topic in this thread, and every situation could be different but the question was a generalized question.

I think part of the issue is the thought of sex is a lot earlier in the process for men. I don’t think it is immediate but could be earlier. But I think it is fairly early for women too. I don’t think women get into bed and suddenly it hits them that they weren’t just having a stimulating conversation... but some other process was happening too. I just think women tend to put the stimulating conversation in a different category. Men can easily lump it in with sex.

I’d suggest if you can getting your Ww to think about what happened translated to the way you might look at it. You might end up more on the same page.

It is about the sex.

To you.

I’d suggest if you can getting your Ww to think about what happened translated to the way you might look at it. You might end up more on the same page.

I doubt it. Because they will never be on the same page. She has told him it wasn't about the sex and he can't view it from her POV. He doesn't believe or trust what she says because he can't make sense of it from his value system. This isn't about his value system. It is about hers. The point being you can't make sense of everything because you aren't her or her character. You can choose to accept it and choose to become vulnerable and go past it. Or you can choose to stay on the hamster wheel trying to make sense of something you will never understand because you are not her desperately looking for safety to trust her. There are no guarantees for anyone. Ever. The only thing you can do is trust yourself to leave if she cheats again. Why look at it from his if it isn't her truth. She can to empathize how hard it is for him to understand where she is coming from since all he sees is sex. IMO from what she has said and how it progressed, it was about the relationship. Honestly you don't seem to be able to move forward unless you hear her say what you want her to say. What is your version of the truth because it will make sense to you. Like a cop questioning a suspect and the suspect admits to something they didn't do just to get the cop from asking after 20 some hours so they can leave and have it dropped already.

She has told him it wasn't about the sex and he can't view it from her POV. He doesn't believe or trust what she says because he can't make sense of it from his value system. This isn't about his value system. It is about hers. The point being you can't make sense of everything because you aren't her or her character.

Let's put this a little differently. I don't believe/trust her because her actions during the A showed something very different than her words say now. Put simply, "it wasn't about sex", but sex was basically all they ever did together. So I have a strong reason not to trust what I'm hearing, because her actions don't line up, if she told me "it wasn't about sex" and had an EA, that would make perfect sense. Honestly, looking at the fact of her A, "it was only about sex" fits a lot better than "it wasn't about sex". Actions during the A /= Words said today, my value system does perhaps color it, but if the actions and words matched, I think it would be pretty clear to me the truth was being told.

Like a cop questioning a suspect and the suspect admits to something they didn't do just to get the cop from asking after 20 some hours so they can leave and have it dropped already.

I see what you're saying here, but, you have to realize, usually when cops do this, they have a strong reason to suspect something. And I've been right in my past suspicions (about the A) so I'm a little more sensitive here. But, truth be told, my W's truth doesn't matter much here, what I was hoping to (and did from some) gain from this thread was an understanding if these two statements could simultaneously be true:

1) It wasn't about sex

2) All we did was have sex

And I think what I'm hearing is that is actually possible, as much as that's difficult for me to understand, it does seem like that seems to not be as logically impossible as it first appears.

I don't believe/trust her because her actions during the A showed something very different than her words say now.

Because of how you view sex. They say something totally different to me because I can see the ego kibble feeding that came before the sex. Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt that she probably enjoyed and wanted the sex after the fact. After the relationship was established by feeding what her true wants and needs were. So, IMO she is telling you the truth. Just because that is exactly what my experience was and I am a guy. I went into the relationship for ego kibbles and attention. I enjoyed the emotional connection and validation. I enjoyed the chase. Moving it to sex was secondary and a benefit.

Put simply, "it wasn't about sex", but sex was basically all they ever did together.

IMO, that just isn't true. You stated yourself the emotional connection that was formed first. Somewhere in your posts you talked about all the love bombing and the poems/letter/card? can't remember. She got what she went there for. Why she had the affair. Sex was the reward for the AP apparently. Probably why he started the affair in your view from your experiences. Give it time and most emotional affairs if given the chance turn physical because that is the natural progression of any relationship. You get your emotional needs met and get the emotional connection going and you get more into the person and want to take it physical. That is how it works for a lot of people. That is how a lot of WS told you their relationships progressed to.

All we did is have sex. Well that really is all you could do. I mean look at it this way. You start it for emotional reasons. You get it fed. The relationship progresses, but for most you can't have a "normal relationship" unless you don't give a shit about being caught. So, what are you left with. Sex somewhere secret. Maybe catching a movie in some motel. Can't really take it public for the risk of someone seeing you and blowing it out of the water. Unless you lie and say you are going out with a bunch of people like I did and meet up at bars and clubs with AP and her co-conspirator. So, you are left with the only thing you can do in private because it must be kept private after the relationship progresses. Sex. Is your wife saying the love bombing stopped after she started having sex? You don't think he fed her ego in that way anymore? He probably did and just made it more about her sexuality.

I get it is difficult to trust your wife on this, but from what you say you knew you were in your marriage (emotionally not there)..it isn't so hard for someone that goes after emotional attention and feeding to get value to believe that your wife is telling the truth.

you are not her desperately looking for safety to trust her.

meant to say you are not her, but you are desperately looking for safety to trust her.

Zug,

First off, thank you for your patience, it's just very hard for me to understand. Probably always will be because I view it so differently.

I went into the relationship for ego kibbles and attention. I enjoyed the emotional connection and validation. I enjoyed the chase. Moving it to sex was secondary and a benefit.

I think my W would say the same. And you know what? That in some ways makes it worse! The ego kibbles and validation from another man? Oh well, we need to figure out what's broken, and I'd be upset, for sure. But I don't know if I even would have found a place like SI (because I wouldn't have been in that much pain, not because it's not an A; although, I'm not sure I would have seen it that way without reading on it). "Tis a flesh wound".

But the thing that was "secondary" to her? A "nice to have"? That's a damn machine gun emptying a clip into my heart. It's just so hard for me to understand doing that much damage and "not really caring" about it. If I'm going to hurt someone like that, it better be something I REALLY want. Something I'm willing to shoot the s**t out of my spouse, their trust, their lives to get.

Let me put it this way, if I had an A and could "get away with" just having sex and not dropping the "OMG, your so amazing, I love you like air", I would. And, if you flip this around, my W COULD get away without the PA. She was getting the kibbles. More kibbles, in fact, before the PA then after it started (no surprise here). And in my hypothetical A, unless I totally lost my mind, I'd realize that "I love yous" and "I want to spend my life with you" stuff would hurt my W badly. So I'd avoid it if I could and keep getting my "needs" (sex) met. Yes, if my AP threatened to cut off the sex unless I dropped "I loveeee you" then, OK, I get it. But that's not the case for my W.

(I realize this is a repeat of what I said above, I get it, please keep the "we already told you why". I don't understand it, no, I don't. Maybe I can't or never will. But I'm reiterating it here as a response to this specific post).

That in some ways makes it worse! The ego kibbles and validation from another man?

My wife said the same thing. To want an emotional connection to someone other than just her was worse. She would have preferred it was just about sex. The only way I can help you get past that is to help you see that if your wife is anything like me, it doesn't mean the AP was better than you. I had my wife, the AP, and soon to be second AP. No one could make me happy. It isn't possible for someone to give someone 100% and even if my wife could, I would have still been looking for 150%. It was just that I was a goldfish. Never full and never satisfied. I did know and value my wife far above the others even when I was willing to risk her. Otherwise, I would have divorced. Not pretty but the truth. I also know I loved her for who she was, that is why I married her even though I chose to take her for granted and then to take advantage of her. I didn't love or know jack about the APs. At the time I loved what they mirrored. Me. Me being able to act immature and irresponsible. Me not being held accountable. People can grow up and change. Your wife wants you. You just have to decide if she is worth it to you anymore. Then, if so- start working on accepting that this happened and living your life where you really don't settle for mundane anymore like my wife. Proving that you are worth it and that she loves you is obviously different for you than it is for my wife. You guys have to work on that communication.

You have to remember that validation is her SELF. People do the shittiest things when they are that low on self love and respect. You can't comprehend it if you never suffered from self confidence or esteem issues. Though I am sure that being cheated on is a hit to that according to my wife and what I read here till you realize it really wasn't about you.

So, the next step is to realize that it went beyond ego kibbles and a relationship formed that benefited them both. It hurts but I bet the intimacy formed is where she doesn't really address what happened to spare you pain. Eventually she probably wanted the sex based on the intimacy formed from the relationship and from the exhiliration of the affair nature.

I know it seems crazy to you, but men and women really aren't that different in what they want in affairs. Some commodities might be different, but the real reality is more than you think the goal is side relationships. Not just the physical act of sex. You have to take out the garbage and you feel like all you are is the garbage man because you have identified yourself in a "teenage immature way" due to low self esteem, so you bitch to the "OW" about being a garbage man and the AP tells you "how you are so great and I would never make you take out the garbage, Let's go have a beer and shoot pool." becomes pretty enticing to irresponsible immature human being while your spouse keeps house for you and watched your kids. Then, you almost lose it and realize this is what you want and would rather be on the couch playing family games instead drinking with an AP. Because, reality hits and realize that is what all the other single guys are trying to get to as well out there on the bar scene and you already fucking have it but took it for granted because you were an immature asshole.

Let me put it this way, if I had an A and could "get away with" just having sex and not dropping the "OMG, your so amazing, I love you like air", I would. And, if you flip this around, my W COULD get away without the PA. She was getting the kibbles. More kibbles, in fact, before the PA then after it started (no surprise here). And in my hypothetical A, unless I totally lost my mind, I'd realize that "I love yous" and "I want to spend my life with you" stuff would hurt my W badly. So I'd avoid it if I could and keep getting my "needs" (sex) met.

I think you're confusing "It wasn't about the sex" with "I didn't want the sex" -- as Zugzwang wrote, the emotional connection was the start of it. It built the scaffold of the relationship. The emotional connection still happens along with the sex, is reinforced through the sex, is being expressed through the sex. So no, it's not about the sex, the sex isn't the reason, it's just one method through which the real goal was met. And it's a very, very effective method to get emotional needs met, and one that feels good, so affair partners almost always include that. Yes, often and maybe constantly.

And the part where you talk about your own hypothetical A - you're projecting what a healthy person with boundaries might say and do in a situation that would only be accessed by someone without healthy boundaries. If you WERE in an affair, you would not be thinking about how each word and action you were taking with the hypothetical OP would be impacting your wife and using her potential feelings as a guide to your affair. If you did that, you of course wouldn't be having an affair to start with. So throw that line of reasoning away completely - a person can't have an ethical affair. Neither did your wife.

My husband can talk pretty openly about his affair now and for him, 'validation' as a man was what he was looking for. I was his equal, she was his 'underling' at work, and he wanted a little (no, a lot of) hero worship. He could have done that a thousand, maybe a million different ways, feeling special and looked up to and bowed down in front of by a beautiful woman - without sex. So why did he progress to sex? Because it was a natural progression for him to feel worshipped first interpersonally and then sexually. And it was a relationship dynamic that reinforced what they'd already built between them before they had sex - that he was somehow above her, and she was in awe of him. And then this dynamic played out in bed, which added physical pleasure to the ego boost he needed. My husband is a manly man and strong and sexy but seriously I don't think his A was all about the sex. The sex was just another way to play out the dynamic that both of them were really after. An inevitable and important part, but not the stand-alone point of what he was after.

Because it was a natural progression for him to feel worshipped first interpersonally and then sexually.

How on earth can people not see that this ISN'T REAL?? I guess it comes down to "healthy vs not-healthy", but, I literally worship NOBODY inter-personally. Yes, people have positive traits that I think are better than my own. But do I worship them for it? No, not even a little bit, I respect them for it and make sure that I can call on them if I need whatever it is they are good at. But this "worship" thing, that's hard for me to comprehend, especially when it's so compelled.

It just feels so fake to me. Sure, I could pay people to tell me how wonderful I am. Would that be 1/100th of the validation I'd get of a person who I wasn't paying telling me the same thing? No, not even close. And, that's the same trade people are making in A, you are "paying" for that worship, that validation, those "you are so wonderful" words with sex. How can that carry any weight?

How on earth can people not see that this ISN'T REAL??

To me, looking back, trying to tell someone in their affair mindset that it's not real and they're living in a not even very well constructed fantasy - that would be like trying to reason with a drunk person. You're not talking to a reasonable person capable of? willing to? use logic to evaluate their current reality. You can see it clearly, but they're just not operating with the same gamebook. So trying to put yourself inside their decision making pipeline just makes you kind of pukey and confused.

Of course basically 'paying' to be worshipped by someone with less power than you is ridiculous, or the WS who go sneaking out to have sex in a car to feel 'cared about' or those that hide in the bathroom flushing the toilet over and over so their BS doesn't hear the gross pet name they're cooing to the accompaniment of flush noises. In cold hard reality this is all so ludicrous and 10 minutes before the thought of an A entered their heads, I bet our spouses would have sincerely agreed it was ludicrous. But they are not seeing cold hard reality once in the affair.

Which is why you're left without ANY good, rational explanation about the sex, or the needs, or the justifications, or the way your wife went about all of those things. It's contradictory and confusing and a tangled scribble of nauseating loops of non-logic. But that doesn't necessarily mean the inside descriptions of that warped reality are a lie.

You can see it clearly, but they're just not operating with the same gamebook. So trying to put yourself inside their decision making pipeline just makes you kind of pukey and confused.

It makes my head hurt. :) And I loved your post, very telling and great analogy.

The thing that's hard for me, I try to think logically about things. And, as much as we all hate to say it, there is a VERY logical reason to enter into an A. "I wanted to have sex with someone new" is nearly unassailable logic; that's what an A will get you, no questions about that at all. That logic is sound, concrete and ties the whole thing off nicely. Even your examples, I sat in the bathroom saying nice things to her and flushing the toilet, BECAUSE I wanted to keep having sex with someone new. Logically consistent. Might not be true, he might have wanted to/felt those lovey things (unlikely, but possible). But it's still logically sound.

There are WS's here who post where I can completely follow their logic. They wanted more sex. Yup, got it. They wanted to end their marriage. OK, shitty way to do it, but, A's are good at that too. They wanted different sexual acts that their H/W would not participate in. Again, I get it. Not exactly morally spectacular (what's the opposite of that??) but, yes, I can't argue that A's do in fact often provide that.

Where it goes sideways for me, "I wanted someone to pay attention to me". OK, I get that is a valid want, but your AP WAS filling that need during the EA! He/she WAS paying attention to you, probably more attention than they paid to you than after you had sex with them. And yes, I realize at some point, they probably would have moved on to easier targets who would sleep with them, but after a week?? There's no logical basis there; you wanted attention, you were getting attention, that attention did not require sex (which you say you didn't really want) so.. Mind melts. Now, for all those who provided good answers to this already, I'm not invalidating what you've said, and I do think that I have the answer, but that answer has no logic behind it. It does not mean it's not the right answer, I think, the more I hear it, the more I think it is, but it's both "right" and also "makes no sense" at the same time.

The concept of someone entering into an A for "love/caring/respect/etc" makes my brain hurt too. It's like looking for a hook up at 3AM in a nunnery. If there's a worse place to look for those things than an A, I struggle to imagine what they would be outside of being paid to have sex.

How on earth can people not see that this ISN'T REAL??

Because we don't care. Even if we know it isn't real, we don't care. Our sick need to us (reality is a want) is so immediate and so overpowering that we really don't care. Anything for the rush we found we get doing it. Just like smokers don't care and drug addicts don't care and gamblers don't care. All an addict cares about is the next rush of endorphines. Who cares if it isn't real to the unhealthy. We still get the attention.

And, as much as we all hate to say it, there is a VERY logical reason to enter into an A. "I wanted to have sex with someone new" is nearly unassailable logic; that's what an A will get you, no questions about that at all.

Is logical to you because you value sex. If you go into it for emotional needs or attention, you are still getting it. Your wife was or she wouldn't have gone back. Real or not real. She still got the undivided attention she wanted. Having my affair was emotionally fullfilling till I had to give more than I got.

OK, I get that is a valid want, but your AP WAS filling that need during the EA! He/she WAS paying attention to you, probably more attention than they paid to you than after you had sex with them. And yes, I realize at some point, they probably would have moved on to easier targets who would sleep with them, but after a week?? There's no logical basis there; you wanted attention, you were getting attention, that attention did not require sex (which you say you didn't really want) so..

At first and to begin with. Till he became her emotional connection. Then, sex (although not the primary reason to have the affair) became an added bonus. I bet she still got ego kibbles even when sex happened.

It's like looking for a hook up at 3AM in a nunnery.

We like to say it is like going through McDonalds and getting a subpar meal that really will not fill you up(AP). Instead of waiting for the steak that will (wife)fill you and taste better. Why settle for one if I can get away with both. That was my mindset.

It's just so hard for me to understand doing that much damage and "not really caring" about it. If I'm going to hurt someone like that, it better be something I REALLY want.

When I asked my wife why she didn't think about the pain this would cause me, she basically said it was not really a consideration because, I was never going to find out. She said her exact thinking on this was, "What he doesn't know won't hurt him". My wife also said she had planned on taking this secret to her grave. I'm guessing your WW probably had similar thoughts.

In addition to the above, I also think there was also a bit of a "Fuck You" attitude towards me in regards to hurting me. A lot of WS's rewrite the marital history to make the BS out to be the bad guy. This helps the WS to justify their betrayal and the hurtful actions that follow.

My apologies if this was already discussed earlier in the thread.

Do you know the old who is on first thing?

We have been you, some of us more than once.

We have asked these questions and have gotten these answers.

Another poster on this tread answered this for you.

He said his reconciliation did not start until his wife stopped minimizing the sex and took accountability for her actions.

It is not you understanding what it meant to her but what it means to you. She needs empathy to understand who her actions make you feel.

She needs to understand her whys. In the end all that matters is she did have sex in the affair. No excuses. No minimizing. Who is on first.

I think HardenMyHeart is exactly right.

And Rambler makes a whole lot of sense.