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Wanting the thing that hurt me more than I ever thought was possible. Am I a masochist? or just an idiot?

You are an idiot. How do I know? I did that same thing last night and I know I'm an idiot. Could be coincidence I suppose.

Neanderthal,

I'm relatively new here but I reconciled twenty-five years ago with my wife. My story is posted here on this site if you are interested.

I just want to say that there is absolutely no rush for you to decide either way. Your marriage is an open wound and anything related to your wife right now is salt rubbed in it. I know you get this a lot but time is the only thing that will help right now.

Reconcilation is not for everyone. I'm not about say it will work for you because betrayal is a very agonizing and soul wrenching event in a marriage. And it's so personal. But at some point I had to own up to my responsibility in assisting the reconcilation. By this I mean at some point I had to accept her words and actions as the truth. Before DDay that would have been easy. Not now.

Obviously you are nowhere near being able to do that right now. But it is ultimately the goal if reconciling is in your future. There is no shame if you never get to that point. Most don't.

Your marriage has been destroyed and you as a person have been fundamentally altered. Your views of love and marriage have been changed in a way that no cheating spouse will ever understand. Never. Can your wife overcome the damage she caused? I don't know. Mine did. But I'd be lying if I said our love is what it was. It's different. It's more real and less fairy tale if that makes sense.

I wish I could give you some magic advice that will make this better but it doesn't exist. Improve yourself. Therapy. Exercise. The usual. And no matter what the outcome you will be healthier in mind and body. Be honest to yourself when reflecting on the days events. Is today better or worse than yesterday? Why? Am I moving forward or just existing in my life as well as my marriage? These are all those self reflecting questions that will be coming into your mind over the next months. Just be honest with yourself when answering them.

I'm sorry I can't give you anything more practical but as I said this is such a personal thing it's hard to give someone a road map to navigate through this stuff. Sometimes all we can do is give you a pen and paper a few vague directions and let you draw your own map.

Best of luck whatever the outcome.

Wanting your wife has nothing to do with being a masochist or an idiot. It is there or it is not.

[This message edited by 66charger at 4:56 AM, August 17th (Saturday)]

Wanting her is normal. If not logical. It is also very confusing. How can you be so disgusted by her actions and still want her physically? How can you want her and at the same time be so repelled by her?

You need to reclaim what was once yours and only yours. You need to take it back - even though it was your wife who gave it away.

Marking your territory. Instinct that is hard wired into our male DNA.

Like your question of why did she kiss him, I hope that her answer was more than "I don't know, I was stupid and regret it"

That might have been her exact response. But what else could she say?

Thanks everyone,

Its good to know I'm not the only idiot.

As expected the day after our anniversary was back to reality. For some reason she decided to start writing an emotional timeline. It wasn't my idea. Well while she wasn't home, I found it and read it. It wasn't complete yet, but there was more than enough in there to make me feel like Dday all over again. Plenty of excuses.

Including blaming me. She even wrote that she felt "WE" (as in her and my daughter) had lost me to a video game! There is some validity to this I suppose. We haven't had internet at our home in 7 years. Living in the country ain't for everyone. Well I enjoyed playing video games years ago, and last fall we finally got proper internet. I definitely went overboard. I played to much and didn't spend time with my family as I should have. Hours a day. It just so happens this is when her affair started. I haven't played since Dday. The Xbox is just sitting there mocking me for fucking up my marriage.

She also mentioned a small physical detail that she hadn't mentioned earlier. Nothing groundbreaking, but still something I didn't know.

She also admitted to making stuff up?! WTF?

The day they had sex. They were together, out of town, all day. I asked if they talked about having sex through out the day, prior to actually doing it. She told me they did, but couldn't give examples. Now she's telling me they didn't discuss it before hand and that she made that part up! None of that makes any sense. Does she even know what the truth is anymore?

I made her put on what she wore to his hotel room. It made me sick to look at her. I hung that tiny top and short shorts on the wall in my bedroom. To remind me of what she is capable of. All of this took place Friday. I pretty much avoided her all day Saturday. In fact I stayed in bed most of the day.

Then last night I marked my territory so to speak. Over the weekend sometime I mentioned a piece of lingerie that I helped her pick out some time in June. She had never wore it for me, I asked if the OM had ever seen it. She said no, and she didn't wear it with me cause she thought it didn't look good. Last night she came out in the living room wearing that lingerie. I didn't know what to do. I definitely wasn't ready for that. But I gave into the small head and followed her back to the bedroom. Its been fucking with me since. It was nice and terrible at the same time. Every negative insecurity I have hit me like a ton of bricks. I cant be good enough? I know I didn't last as long, why would she want me? Is she faking it? Did she make the same noises for him? Was she louder? Is she thinking about him? I had mind movies the whole time too. Afterwards I felt ashamed. I wrote down a lot of what I'm feeling and I'll probably share that with my counselor tomorrow.

During and afterwards I just kept thinking.....Is she using me? She knows I'm just a dumb ape. She knows sex makes me relax, calm, easier to deal with, docile even. Am I being manipulated?

Sweet baby Jesus, I don't trust her.

Also I haven't cried since last Thursday, I feel just as bad, and I want to cry. But nothing comes out. Is this normal? Am I just going numb?

Ouch. What a downer. Definitely puts a new perspective on things if her why is that you played too much Xbox. And what an unfortunate trigger that could be once you feel like gaming in the future.

Can you figure out when the new lingerie showed up? Was it during the A? Have you asked?

And making stuff up - what a mind fuck! You might want to consider asking her to take a polygraph test at this point. She's muddied the waters to a point where you can't even know what's the truth, what's not, and if/when she will suddenly take back other things she's said.

Numbness is normal. You've been brought back to DDay and had some new shock and trauma thrown into the mix. You might be in shock. You could also just be shutting down a little due to how much of a rollercoaster ride you've been on. Give it some time and see an IC if it's interfering with anything else.

During and afterwards I just kept thinking.....Is she using me? She knows I'm just a dumb ape. She knows sex makes me relax, calm, easier to deal with, docile even. Am I being manipulated?

Sweet baby Jesus, I don't trust her.

Its normal. It sucks. This shit is not for the weak. As much as you can, focus on you. Get what you need to feel better.

Recovery is not linear. You will have good days and bad days and then moments where you feel like there is light at the end of the tunnel immediately followed by some of the darkest moments of your life. You stop being able to trust yourself and that is the scariest part of it all because you now know, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that you can no longer trust this other person who is supposed to have your back and look after you, to do so anymore.

I know it doesn't feel like it right now, but you're actually doing really well. You're emotionally burnt out.

Including blaming me. She even wrote that she felt "WE" (as in her and my daughter) had lost me to a video game! There is some validity to this I suppose.

Please don't blame yourself. This was HER stupid choice. None of us are perfect in our marriages - that doesn't make cheating a reasonable alternative. Also, from a purely nitpicky persective, I call bullshit. She felt like you had abandoned her and your daughter so she decided to go out and abandon the both of you?

That said, however moronic this type of logic sounds - I actually believe that this may have been her (obviously flawed) thinking at the time. Wayward thinking is a real thing. My own husband's "whys" immediately post-d-day sounded a LOT different than they do now. They use whatever grievance that they have about the relationship to justify their own selfish shitty actions or to give themselves "permission" in their own mind because they can't bear to think of themselves as the wrongdoer. That logic (hopefully) wont last too long, but it's probably an honest starting place for the time being and right now brutal honesty should be the goal. To be clear, I'm not suggesting you should accept this answer or that you shouldn't be annoyed with it (I certainly would be!), I'm just saying I'm not surprised.

Hearing the details is like drinking acid. That's why they warn BHs to be certain we want to hear them before asking. However, for me, and I think most, not hearing the details is worse because it leads to mind movies and feedback loops.

I think you ought to straight up discuss the discrepancy with your WW. She's likely in a bit of a mess, which would among other things lead to jumbled memory, including confessing to things that didnt happen. No matter whether they talked about it, it's clear she knew sex was going to happen that day and intended it.

As to the video game, that again goes to the "explaining versus excusing" dialectic. Around here, it is a running joke, based on hard reality, that certain types of men know how to troll for certain types of wives during the week of opening of deer season. As Bigger often says, a good husband never stops courting his wife.

Can you figure out when the new lingerie showed up? Was it during the A? Have you asked?

Yes. I know exactly when. remember I helped pick it. Yes, during the affair. Its been sitting on the dresser in a bag for 2 months. What am I asking exactly?

You might want to consider asking her to take a polygraph test at this point

That will probably happen if I decide to try and R. I've already got $900 more each month in IC to pay for.

Thanks emergent8,

Everything you said makes sense to me.

I think you ought to straight up discuss the discrepancy with your WW.

I did discuss it with her. She doesn't know why she made that up. I explained that this only makes it harder for me to believe anything she says.

Around here, it is a running joke, based on hard reality, that certain types of men know how to troll for certain types of wives during the week of opening of deer season. As Bigger often says, a good husband never stops courting his wife.

Buttforthegrace, can you explain that to me better please? If I'm understanding you correctly. If I was courting her properly, she wouldn't have cheated. Is that what you meant?

I made her put on what she wore to his hotel room. It made me sick to look at her. I hung that tiny top and short shorts on the wall in my bedroom. To remind me of what she is capable of.

There are limits to your anger, Neanderthal. One day, you will look upon this action with shame, not for her, but for you. I too went over the top with my husband (rubbed his nose with the picture of the other woman, literally), I cannot think of this without seeing his humiliated, defeated, bullied face. And I am forever ashamed and sad I could do that to the man I said I love. Try to keep this in mind. I do understand the absolute uncontrollable rage you experience, but it is our actions that define us, not the others’ actions.

Regarding feeling manipulated, I think it is actually a bit different if your WS has regret and remorse.

In this situation your WS is trying to influence your decision about the marriage. If she is remorseful, she desperately wants to have the marriage continue so she is thinking of how to heal you, how to make you feel better, how to make you understand that they actually felt like they screwed up and wish it had never would have happened, how to help you feel loved.

Is any of this self-serving behavior on her part? Yes it is. Because she is trying to align how you feel with what she wants. But I still don't think of it as being manipulative if the intent is to attempt to heal you and restore the marriage. Now it is true that the perfect WS probably comes to the understanding that they want to heal you more than anything. And if that means getting a divorce so you can properly heal away from them, then they will actually be okay with that. Even though that is not what they want. I think that is an incredible amount of humility to obtain and a rare quality. I do not think it is required to have a successful reconciliation but anyone who gets to that degree of remorse is certainly someone we could hold up as a role model for post affair behavior.

It is hard to have a lot of sympathy for a WS. Still, it is helpful to put ourselves in their shoes after the affair. If they realized the depth of error they made and become remorseful these things don't come along with the perfect rule book of how to try to make themselves safe, heal their spouse, and fix the marriage. Think about what a daunting task that is. Add on top the traumatized BS and the task almost looks impossible. So you have to expect a WS will make errors of judgment and feel bewildered and panicked at times as they realize just how much they hurt their spouse and how they do not know how to help them heal.

I don't write that to try to get sympathy from you to your WS. I write it so you understand that she is going to struggle with how to effectively interact with you. Yes, she made her own bed and now she has to lie in it. But if you have any Notions of reconciliation you also have to understand that she has to figure this out and she'll cross lines and hurt you some more while she does. That additional pain and angst is not intentional if the Ws has remorse. But it still happens.

If I'm understanding you correctly. If I was courting her properly, she wouldn't have cheated. Is that what you meant?

That isnt what I'm saying, at all. There are multiple parallel lines of tasks going on simultaneously. One of them is her figuring out her whys. Explaining a thing is not excusing a thing. But understanding it is the first step to fixing it.

There are limits to your anger, Neanderthal. One day, you will look upon this action with shame, not for her, but for you. I too went over the top with my husband (rubbed his nose with the picture of the other woman, literally), I cannot think of this without seeing his humiliated, defeated, bullied face. And I am forever ashamed and sad I could do that to the man I said I love. Try to keep this in mind. I do understand the absolute uncontrollable rage you experience, but it is our actions that define us, not the others’ actions.

I feel no shame. I wasn't even angry. I never raised my voice. I never called her a whore, slut, or even the C word. Anger hasn't hit me yet. Not even a little bit. Dday when I yelled at her for the truth. That's the only time I've raised my voice to her, and it was more of a cry for help than anger.

She admitted to throwing out the panties that she was wearing when she would video and take pictures of herself for him. So I asked what she did with the clothes she wore to his room. She still had them, and I wanted to know what she looked like entering the room. I asked once and she did it. How was that rubbing anything in?

Regarding feeling manipulated, I think it is actually a bit different if your WS has regret and remorse.

I hope you are right, I'm just so jaded to everything right now. Nothing seems believable.

Sorry Butforthegrace

I didn't understand your analogy. Thanks for clarifying.

As to the part about asking what she wore on that day, I see nothing even remotely excessive. It's a pretty normal request by a betrayed husband trying to wrap his mind around the metes and bounds of the betrayal.

Yes. I know exactly when. remember I helped pick it. Yes, during the affair. Its been sitting on the dresser in a bag for 2 months. What am I asking exactly?

I didn't know you knew when they were purchased so I was wondering if you had asked her. Anything's possible but if they sat around for 2 months in a bag, they're probably safe from OM.

I think questioning her assertions of neglect in the timeline is valid and worth having her clarify what she means by it. Maybe she was trying to explain her thought process but given your timeline, her A would have only begun a few months after you started gaming. It's concerning. So the relationship gets a little stale for a few months and she tries to jump ship? We're not talking about years of neglect and a dead bedroom here. You should find out if this was her justification at the time or if she still thinks this was a marriage problem that contributed to her A.

Did she ever address you playing video games too much while it was happening?

[This message edited by nekonamida at 3:24 PM, August 19th (Monday)]

I'd also like to say that skepticism at this stage is GOOD. Your DDay was 1 month ago. It only slightly matters how remorseful and wanting to R your WW is. That has nothing to do with her and absolutely everything to do with remorse, R, and change in a WS requiring consistent actions over time. It's too early to fully believe everything she says and does even if it's the truth. And given some of the lies she has told after DDay, you should keep your eyes open.

I can point you to dozens and dozens of WS who did and said what she did right now who later chose to cheat again or tried to force their BS to rugsweep. The fact that we have so many BSes coming back here 5, 10, 12 years into R is proof of that. A lot of their WSes said and did everything right too in the beginning. 1 month is way WAAAY too early to be judging this as a future successful R story and giving her the benefit of the doubt for every little red flag that pops up.

Her effort right now means it's safe for you to take your time, keep watching what she's doing, and deciding for yourself what the right way forward is for you.

Considering the circumstances, it was a pretty good day. But it was just fantasy after all.

It is equally probably that it was real too? I don't blame you at all for retreating after being vulnerable. It is not easy to be vulnerable to someone that hurt you so badly. I remember hating myself for being kind to my W. You know what ? Stop that. You are a kind and generous person. Nothing to be ashamed about there. It is who you are and you don't have to apologize for who you are. Let her comfort you. As much as you are mourning what you lost she is mourning what she willing gave away. Big difference when looking backward. Both are ok and coexist.

Man, you have to stop blaming yourself for her choices. Talk to your IC. You were in the same M, but you did not cheat. Every M has issues. Every single one. Not all M have infidelity in them. She has to figure out her why. Anything that blames you or the M is wrong. She has a character deficit, probably got it long before she met you, and she has to figure out where it comes from and why it is a terrible thing to carry.

Blaming yourself is the illusion of control. You can't control her anymore than she can control you. Her choices are 100% on her. Yours from this point forward are 100% on you. She might agree that she deserves it (outfit thing) and brush it off. Let me tell you in time it won't set right with you as you realize that isn't who you are. She knows what she did and won't be able to forget it any time soon. You don't need to remind her. Don't make that a burden that you have to carry.

Like your question of why did she kiss him, I hope that her answer was more than "I don't know, I was stupid and regret it"

That might have been her exact response. But what else could she say?

That would be her first CYA response, like "no officer I don't know why you stopped me" which is expected during the early peeling back of the layers in an A. But as some time passes I would want to know how she decided it was acceptable to her to kiss, etc him.

Was she thinking "OMG this is going to be great, here we go hang on for wild ride" or "OMG WTF am I doing but I really want him" or "Husband, kids nope they don't matter" or "He has his playstation and so do I" or "I could really fuck up my life when I cross this line"

Maybe all or none of these were in her head, but like you say what else could she say.

Maybe something that she needs to explore in IC. How to avoid it in the future.

I have never cheated on anyone, as I am very bad at multi tasking so I don;t know what would be going thru my head as I crossed that line.

Did she ever address you playing video games too much while it was happening?

Yes she did. But only a couple times, and never made a big deal of it. She shouldn't have had to though. I shouldn't have been so selfish.

Amarula thank you for your comment. I can see how easy it would be to be vindictive or treat her wrong. Ill try to keep that in mind in the future.

Everyone makes mistakes in marriage. Everyone does something selfish from time to time. You did something you weren't supposed to and you didn't hear it when she commented on it. That doesn't mean it's your fault she had the A.

If it was such a big deal that it was worth decimating the marriage, the responsible thing would have been for her to have a serious talk with you about it and ask you to stop that behavior. Not destroy the marriage. That's why it's a crappy why even when the marriage really has gone down hill for years. There are about 10 healthy choices and responses and none of them include having an A so her why will need to examine why she chose the most destructive and hurtful choice instead of just about anything else.