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Anytime you engage with her you give her fuel. The less you say the better especially on the topic of reconciliation. Genuine reconciliation is wasted on her. She will settle only for your complete submission and obedience.

Push and pull. If you attempt to press her for information or a renewed commitment she will pull away. If you withdraw she will pursue because she will not allow you to break away. This game does not end unless you choose to end it.

You want to know the truth because that determines if you can ever trust her. You will not have the truth from her, ever. You cannot trust her going forward, ever. If you want to know who you are really married to just look at all of your wayward wife's actions up to this point. You have nothing to save, nothing worth saving. She has betrayed you in the worst way possible and continues to do so. She has shown no remorse much less respect for you.

Let go of any false hope of reconciliation and focus on freeing yourself from this toxic woman. You will find this challenging enough.

Here is what I learned from my H’s Affair and an abusive boss I had for 12 years.

I no longer argue with people. It’s a waste of time.

With my children I don’t back down but I say what I must and leave the room.

With my cheating H at dday2 it was a statement (I’m D you b/c I have no other choice) and leave the room.

With my boss I warn him he’s crossed the line and hang up the phone if he persists. However he knows not to push me any longer b/c he gets nowhere. He lives to argue and create the drama. I refuse to go along and ignore him. And when he lies and gives me a bullshit answer I remain calm and don’t get sucked into his drama. He needs me more than he cares to admit.

Your wife is now realizing she’s not dealing with the familiar H and can predict the outcome. You have changed and she cannot play the same game b/c the rules have changed.

She doesn’t know how to operate under the new rules. Especially when you refuse to engage.

Therefore she resorts to more lies, more anger due to her frustration and more outbursts b/c she doesn’t know what else to do.

The answer to “where’s your car” was the best response. You can see how twisted she got b/c she’s lost control.

I love (eyeroll here) how the cheaters lie and cheat but when the BS doesn’t “behave accordingly” the cheater goes off the deep end. I guess the hypocrisy is lost on the cheater.

Rock on!! You got this.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 7:00 AM, July 4th (Saturday)]

I've been trying to stay away and not have conversations with WW.

This morning, she said she visited the therapist I found. I just said okay and kept doing what I was doing (walked away). She also asked (later) if I wanted to go swim with her in the pool. I was like I don't think so, I'm doing "this".

Remember, she asked what therapist she should go see... One from her health plan @ work (free) and the guy I chose (costs $$)? And my answer was if she's going for IC, then she should choose her plan. If she hopes to ever have a chance of MC and possible R, go see my guy.

I'm not sure she realizes it, but she did began checking one thing off the list I put in my letter to her. She has to continue to go of course. And it doesn't escape my notice that she wanted to see someone to begin to figure everything out. So, it's not something she did for me or for the list to R... It was for her.

I did tell her and also the therapist that neither one of them get to decide what kind of information I need to be able to begin to heal and to begin to rebuild trust.

I'm sure to everyone reading this you are thinking that I'm now going to begin to cave and not be that grey rock. I will not. However, I would open up a bit if she would tell me his name, and when (to establish the beginning of the timeline) and how they REALLY met. I don't have the truth about any of that yet.

She is trying to engage. I'm sure that's from the therapist. But what neither of them realize is that I wont engage until I begin to get the truth.

Happy Independence Day everyone.

My gosh that is only reasonable to say the least. If she is truly going to try and re-connect She has to come clean and give you the information you need and deserve.

There are people here at SI who have “reconciled” even though the cheating spouse refused to say who the Affair was with.

They never got past that.

It still ate them up inside.

Just do you know - they had bitter resentment over the years. Most assumed it was so done close like a brother or sister Or best friend. But the nit knowing was slowly killing them.

She is trying to engage. I'm sure that's from the therapist. But what neither of them realize is that I wont engage until I begin to get the truth.

Honesty is the cornerstone of R. And it's not so much about learning every detail of the affair, at least not for everyone, because for every detail you learn, a new trigger is born. But what it's truly about is KNOWING that any question you ask, no matter how uncomfortable the WS may be in answering it, you'll get the TRUTH.

If she's unwilling to engage with complete honesty, trust can never be reestablished. IME, trust is never again what it once was. It's never blind or naive again. It depends on the WS's scrupulous record on honest interactions, which then builds a new foundation. It's not built brick by brick. It's built drop by drop, with each interaction bringing a tiny amount of new trust to the foundation, and any lie tearing down all progress.

You're doing fine. Just remember that no cheater is owed a second chance. This is a gift, one that's completely in your purview to withhold if your WS is unworthy of receiving it.

I'm not sure she realizes it, but she did began checking one thing off the list I put in my letter to her.

Yes she realizes this and made a point of telling you which counselor she saw for a reason. My guess is that she hoped you would sweep things because she is "trying." That you two can start doing things together (pool, store...) and put the divorce talk on hold.

I don't think she wants a divorce (right now) but it's not because she wants to work on the marriage. It could be because she doesn't want family/friends to know that you divorced because of her cheating. It could be she realizes OM isn't a good replacement. I could be something else.

She seems to be doing as little as she can as slowly as she can. It's not an I love you, I hate what I've done do you and our marriage and I will do everything I can to save this...

There are people here at SI who have “reconciled” even though the cheating spouse refused to say who the Affair was with.

They never got past that.

It still ate them up inside.

Wow. That will not be me.

First Choice: I move on and gain no more information than I have today. That may very well happen. The disgusting part is that I have not control over it. If it does, then I have no idea how that will change me in future relationships. I'm not giving someone the power to destroy everything about me... Those things that I think made me, me. They're just not there anymore. I always trusted, wanted to discuss things, and shared how I really felt. I let people in. Allowing someone in like that, seems like the most asinine thing to do again. If I were to ever do that and then have that trust betrayed a second time in my life, I don't know what would happen. How and what could I remake myself into an second time? This first time is going to be hard enough.

Second Choice: She completes the list of minimums that I put in the letter. I would then do at least a few counseling sessions with her. One problem I would face is if I could ever trust her again. Right now, I just can't. Would knowing everything and being able to verify that she's being honest allow me to trust again? Can those of you that have been cheated on share your stories of the path to regain and retain trust?

I also can't fathom being intimate with her. Does that change as you begin to trust again? My self-esteem is shattered. Do they have some device where I can hook her up to it an hear her thoughts as we are intimate? What would I hear? Comparisons to him? Wishing something of me that I can't give her? Would I hear her pretending to be fucking him instead of me and the device saying his name instead of mine? I know that doesn't exist, but right now, I would feel very insecure and less and I am full of self-doubt. Who has stories about getting intimate as a BS after you reconcile?

[This message edited by BSHusbandWI at 3:34 PM, July 4th (Saturday)]

Yes she realizes this and made a point of telling you which counselor she saw for a reason.

Yes, but I also know that at the end of the my counseling session, he asked me to invite her one last time so that years down the road, I will have no regrets and wonder if I did everything in my power to save the marriage.

Because of that interaction with the counselor, I believe he told her to tell me that they met so he might be a sort of bridging factor so we can try to work on the marriage.

I've said it a few times now... The affair disclosure first, then maybe we try to R. I'm not sure if I can or not, but wont consider it until full disclosure is finished.

Can those of you that have been cheated on share your stories of the path to regain and retain trust?

I have not even thought of dating yet because I am enjoying being just for myself right now. I'm sure this is a future bridge I will have to cross. But I can tell you a couple things. I will be way more discerning with my trust in the future, and for me I don't think that's a bad thing necessarily. And aside from that, my exdouche has taken enough from me. He doesn't get to take my humor, and joy in simple things, and my ability to trust. I refuse to give him those. I felt shaky on that at first, but the further out I've gotten, the clearer that feeling has become.

You're in early days still. Work on your current situation and put this on the to do list down the road. You're dealing with plenty enough for right now just on your day to day.

Also just a thought but whatever you're doing as far as counseling goes, still keep moving in your initial path to D. Not saying this meaning you should D, but just don't let any of her noise distract you from getting yourself free of infidelity. Pay close attention to her actions and not her words. It's easier said than done.

You have to remember that the reason for the affair is not related to the state of the marriage. The affair is all about character, or lack thereof - lack of integrity and boundaries and morals, infatuation, selfishness and entitlement. Until she recognizes and admits to herself and you that these are the faults within her that she has to correct, working on the marriage at this stage is pointless.

Until she recognizes and admits to herself and you that these are the faults within her that she has to correct, working on the marriage at this stage is pointless.

People admit that? Really?? Wow. That takes some REAL character. Seriously, I don't know a lot of people that would be able to do that.

Yes, people do do it. It is much less traumatic and tumultuous to them personally than what they have done to their faithful spouse. But I don’t believe she has the strength or selfLESSness to do it. I doubt she will ever NOT be able to blame you for her affair.

Stay strong and do what you must to be able to look yourself in the mirror

[This message edited by Newlifeisgreat at 4:08 PM, July 4th (Saturday)]

You asked about the process for regaining trust. In my case it took consistent actions and transparency for a long time to start to earn back my trust. Not words, but actions. She needs real empathy to realize how much her actions have hurt you and destroyed the bond of trust between you. It’s a process, but your WW has to be all in. It took two years for me to get over my need to lash out and begin to trust after I had called off the D process. But she never faltered. Some WS are capable and willing to do the work. Read the 1stwife’s story. Only you can decide if your WW is demonstrating what you need to see to even consider granting her the grace of R. From what you describe, IMO, right now she is not a candidate for R.

fareast: TWO YEARS!?!??!

I don't know if I have that in me.

What about someone who moved to D... What was your story of trusting another?

fareast: “TWO YEARS!?!??!”

Ha! Yes, it took me a long time to begin to trust again. But in my case it was the best decision I have ever made. The last forty years since then have been well worth it.

She is trying to engage - Not for any reason you assume and certainly not at any therapist's urging. She is probing for any weakness in you that she can exploit. Any bit of information or leverage she can find to reassert her hold over you.

What neither of them realize is that you will not engage until you get the truth. Do you expect either your wayward wife or the therapist are mind readers? If this is your requirement make it clear don't wait for them to guess what you need. Regardless, even if you choose to let your wife know what you need - the truth - you will not get it. She will string you along and delay. Any thing she chooses to do is all geared toward getting you back under her thumb.

You can't fathom being intimate with her. Do you really expect that to change? Do you assume she bothered to use protection. Assume no. Do you think she would care if she gave you an STD? Answer - NO. Then there is all she said about you on the VAR - that you are shit, etc. After all this you are still entertaining reconciliation? Sunk cost fallacy.

You can certainly continue to pursue reconciliation. You will be bitterly disappointed after months or even more years of your wife's delays and other nonsense. Would recommend you research narcissistic behavior. Covert narcissism in particular. Compare your wayward wife to the documented behavior.

Do you expect either your wayward wife or the therapist are mind readers? If this is your requirement make it clear don't wait for them to guess what you need.

I have done this with both.

I have reiterated multiple times with her. And at my next IC, I will be very clear what I expect befor the three of us will meet.

[This message edited by BSHusbandWI at 6:00 PM, July 4th (Saturday)]

I gotta say, despite this being Independence Day, I don't feel very independent.

Just can't stop thinking about it all. Feel like I'm a prisoner to all these terrible feelings and terrible situation I am in.

And I'm sorry for my boys that they have to deal with this too.

People admit that? Really?? Wow. That takes some REAL character. Seriously, I don't know a lot of people that would be able to do that.

Would you seriously consider reconciliation with anything less?