SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

This forum is full of betrayed spouses, most of them still freshly in pain.

This forum, Just Found Out, IS full of betrayed spouses -- but the rest of your statement is an inaccurate perception of how this JFO forum tends to operate. The people who you describe as being "freshly in pain" are typically the ones who are starting the threads here, and the responders are almost always those who are pretty far removed from the immediate trauma. The stories in JFO are often very difficult to read and so there are many, many members who don't even read/respond to JFO posts. Most of the people who respond to these threads have the ability to *see* a situation objectively and offer advice that's based on their own hindsight knowledge of their own situation. Also, after being around SI for long enough, it becomes alarmingly clear that, while every situation has unique qualities, the phrase "reading from the Cheater's Handbook" came about for a reason.

I do trust a dispassionate expert more than a fellow victim.

You like to argue/debate, so I quoted this because it kind of exemplifies how twisted up your logic becomes when you are pushing back against what people are saying to you. You say that you trust the MC, but when the MC pointed out that the business trip was a bad idea and your GF argued otherwise, you agreed with your GF.

You've run this "business trip" idea past many, many people, and it seems that the ONLY ones who think it is an okay idea are you and your GF. And that's fine. Really. You two are the ones who are living your life, so the decisions made are ultimately between the two of you. Your GF's behavior doesn't affect my life (or any other poster's life) one bit.

Many people have told you that this relationship should end. If I had to choose a side, I'd agree.

You are so focused on the Tree, that you are giving short shrift to the Forest. To me, cheating is a sign of much deeper issues regarding loyalty and respect -- a person who feels loyalty and respect for his/her partner will not cheat. So my logical sequence says: She cheated, which shows that she lacks loyalty/respect for you -- and that just doesn't bode well for the future.

t/j

There's plenty of research that indicates collective intelligence isn't to be easily dismissed. In a group like this, you have so much diversity in the voices. People who have been through multiple marriages, people who are brand new to a relationship. Those just graduating high school to those who are retired. Those who have careers in a wide variety of fields - doctors, lawyers, real estate agents, SAHMs, business owners, academics, retail workers, dentists, construction, and everything in between. There are 50k people, hundreds of whom are active at any one point, who share their experiences, their areas of expertise, their perspectives, books they've read, their own research.

There's tons of research that looks at groups like this - though typically on different topics (strangely, I actually found a dissertation on *this site*). Businesses are recruiting sites like this because they know they can benefit from the collective intelligence. Schools and businesses are looking at the model of this common/peer approach to figure out ways to improve learning models. If you want the actual learning side of this, case wise - check out Benkler, ito, Jenkins, Gee, Hayes, Sims, Pascoe, Nardi, Pearce, Boellstorff, Steinkuehler, Taylor. If you want theory side of it - check out Gee, Engestrom, Cole, Vygosky, Lave, Wenger, Nardi.

On the flip side, you have an individual who has a particular type of schooling, with a particular emphasis and area of research. Which may or may not be in infidelity. I have many friends who are wonderful peds, but they can't offer parenting advice because that's not their area. I have a cousin who is a great MFT and well-respected in her field, but her area of expertise is not infidelity and she would only knows a surface level in that area. Etc.

This isn't at all to say that an MC/couples counselor isn't useful or valuable. It's *very* useful to sit down with someone as a couple and discuss issues, learn communication styles in *practice,* be forced to reflect on communication. Be challenged on issues. Get tasks to reflect on when outside of the sessions.

end t/j

Sorry for the extensive t/j - that actually is my area of expertise.

I think a lot of the thread has been spent trying to convince you to break up with her. which is being influenced by you being male, young, unmarried, and no kids.

I think this makes it tend to end up in a you defending why you stay, cyclical.

But I hope you're also getting from a lot of the posts different ways of looking at what you may be taking as a given. Not as a "well that must mean you should break up with her," but rather looking at it from a different perspective

Like this:

Just as I wouldn't expect her to quit her job to be with me all the time, I didn't expect her to cancel this trip.

This seems pretty manipulative. She's talking to someone else, in front of you, and dismissing that person's concerns (and perhaps yours) by saying you're supportive of her and aren't needy "to be with me all the time." When of course, there is no all or none. If she's trying to be remorseful and gain empathy, she would surely understand why it'd be difficult for you that she is taking a work trip. That's not being needy, that's putting herself in your shoes. And if she's horrified by what she's done, isn't she herself struggling with the triggers of returning there? My husband was downright relieved to be done with his job - and no it didn't mean he came home to stay with me everyday

He got a different job. He was happy to not have his own triggers.

But instead her response is to situate you in a particular role (you're a good guy, you wouldn't want her to quit her job), and downplay the therapists requests for reflection. The therapist then asked her to turn it back on herself and reflect - and she did that by reiterating your supportive role.

I really hope for your sake that you're a troll wasting everyone's time...

Please get individual therapy. You will need to have coping skills for what you have chosen for your life.

Ouch.

You like to argue/debate, so I quoted this because it kind of exemplifies how twisted up your logic becomes when you are pushing back against what people are saying to you. You say that you trust the MC, but when the MC pointed out that the business trip was a bad idea and your GF argued otherwise, you agreed with your GF.

You've run this "business trip" idea past many, many people, and it seems that the ONLY ones who think it is an okay idea are you and your GF. And that's fine. Really. You two are the ones who are living your life, so the decisions made are ultimately between the two of you. Your GF's behavior doesn't affect my life (or any other poster's life) one bit.

I think that was my biggest mistake so far. I wish I had mentioned the trip here before it got so difficult to cancel. In this case, the therapist and this forum all agree that it's a terrible idea. And you sound just like our therapist in saying "that's fine; your decisions are your own". Which I imagine is a necessary mindset if you don't want to go crazy when giving advice to people like me.

You are so focused on the Tree, that you are giving short shrift to the Forest.

Huh, I was afraid I was doing the opposite. Like, the "forest" is our years-long relationship, and the "tree" is the affair. And that tree is on fire.

strangely, I actually found a dissertation on *this site*

I'd love to see it, if you have a link handy! I liked the t/j.

So far, I trust my current therapist in part because of her education and experience, but mostly because I felt that she helped us a lot with the lower-level relationship problems (communication etc) before the affair. At first, she projected a lot of confidence that we could work past the affair. When I reacted poorly to that (there was no fucking way I was going to commit to stay with my girlfriend and "working through it" so soon after Dday), she started taking more of the "give it time" angle. In part because I had heard similar things on this forum, I was more comfortable taking that route. She tells me that, over time, my feelings will stop vacillating so much and will settle down, and once that starts to happen, I'll be in a better place to make a decision. So that's what I've been doing.

I think a lot of the thread has been spent trying to convince you to break up with her. which is being influenced by you being male, young, unmarried, and no kids.

I think this makes it tend to end up in a you defending why you stay, cyclical.

I think you're right. In therapy and with my girlfriend, I'm the pessimistic one, arguing on the side of breaking up. Y'all would be proud of me, if you could hear me then.

I guess the danger of always playing devil's advocate is that you lose sight of what you actually think.

But instead her response is to situate you in a particular role (you're a good guy, you wouldn't want her to quit her job), and downplay the therapists requests for reflection. The therapist then asked her to turn it back on herself and reflect - and she did that by reiterating your supportive role.

That's an astute observation. And yeah, that is kind of the dynamic. That's one reason my girlfriend's self-pity sessions have been a problem. She's always had trouble getting into these spirals of negativity. My instinct is always to comfort her, to minimize and suppress my own problems, to be a caretaker. In the wake of the affair, this behavior is even more problematic.

Part of me feels like her proper role is to totally set aside her own worries and pains and to prioritize me above everything else. Under normal circumstances, that would be a shitty relationship dynamic, and so it feels really weird to want it now. But these are not normal circumstances. It's a crisis. And if she proves unable to set aside her own desires in my moment of need, maybe that's all I need to know.

?

This seems pretty manipulative. She's talking to someone else, in front of you, and dismissing that person's concerns (and perhaps yours) by saying you're supportive of her and aren't needy "to be with me all the time."

I guess I should note that this particular example ("I wouldn't expect her to quit her job for me") was my idea, which I said first in therapy, because I'm fucked up. So although the wider point is true (she shouldn't have listened to me and should have refused to go on the trip, and it's not healthy that I keep caretaking and supporting her even when it's not good for me), I don't feel like I can count this particular line against her.

"I'd love to see it, if you have a link handy! I liked the t/j."

You can check out the healing library and there is some reference to research, including someone who did research with this site

I don't have a link to the dissertation, might be worth googling?

I came across the dissertation by chance. I was trying to find citation suggestions from others who have done messageboard research. My advisor wanted me to cite messageboard links for my research (something very different than this site). I told him I couldn't, for ethical reasons. He asked me to find out what the proper documentation for it would be. So I went to find other dissertations that used messageboards, and came across the SI one. I only briefly perused it. While I'm sure they had permission to do research here, they had included links in their references - something which I strongly disagreed with. Typically researchers try to offer their participants some level of privacy, which you can't really do when you're providing readers a direct link to peoples' moments of distress. I mean, of course anytime you use an actual site name, and it's an open site, you can't guarantee anonymity. In my own research - on sites that are extremely different in their content - I try to edit quotes slightly so that even the quotes won't provide direct links to the discussion threads should a reader google them. It was a practice my research team put in place a few years ago because of the age groups we work with. So anyways, long story short - found the SI dissertation, was kind of shocked that they direct linked it. And for my own work found out messageboard posts are protected as "data" that don't need to be directly referencd

I don't feel like I can count this particular line against her.

I don't think you should be using lines against her. But I think it might be worthwhile for you to take a step back at what she's showing you through her own choices - or what she lets you choose for her. That was the second time you said you excused her decisions by saying you gave her permission. There's a dynamic there you should look at.

I guess the danger of always playing devil's advocate is that you lose sight of what you actually think.

I think trying to see things from many perspectives is useful. And pressuring yourself to know answers in a situation that is far from straightforward or easy isn't going to make things easier. Journaling your own feelings, thoughts, and exploring those on here, in IC, through readings - wherever is productive. I think that's helpful. I think a lot of people on here have a goal of challenging people to step back and think about what's going on, as outsiders are seeing it (through the perspective of the person writing it). Challenging people to stop being in the moment or arguing one way or another, and just start being an audience to the actions. And learning to listen to ourselves, truly listen

I don't think you should be using lines against her. But I think it might be worthwhile for you to take a step back at what she's showing you through her own choices - or what she lets you choose for her. That was the second time you said you excused her decisions by saying you gave her permission. There's a dynamic there you should look at.

You're right. I'll meditate on that.

So I get this idea that my girlfriend is essentially still the same woman I fell in love with, and she just made a horrible horrible mistake

Yeah, it's funny, but I don't get that idea. The idea I get is that she is not who you thought she was.

And, please don't call it a mistake. What she did wasn't a mistake. There was "no mistake about it". She chose to sleep with him and chose to do it again and again. Naive? I call complete and total bullshit on that. My 7 year old knows that you're not suppose to "cheat" on someone.

IMO, you're way too far into your head on this whole thing. You seem to think you can apply intellect to this and arrive at a better answer. You can analyze this ten ways from Sunday and the facts will still remain. The facts are simple. She betrayed you. She lied to you. She dishonored your closeness.

It's clear from your posts that you will stay with her. I'm no Shirley whatever her last name is, but I can tell you this, you are a fool if you don't assign 100 times more value to people on this site who have lived this nightmare.

Careful, too, not to fall into the terminal uniqueness trap.

That's all I got. Best to you.

[This message edited by nomistakeaboutit at 10:30 PM, May 23rd (Monday)]

a necessary mindset

Not really. It's called having healthy boundaries and having respect for you as a grown-up person who is the master of his own universe. You are the one who is living it, so while someone can say to you "buddy, you're gonna get flamed", no one can *make* you do anything other than what you choose to do. No one is going to go into your house and take your GF's luggage so that she can't go on the trip, kwim?

I'm curious as to how your GF has reacted to the news that she now has herpes?

I understand that you don't think she will contact hotel-guy while on her trip, and I don't really have any type of *feeling* about whether she is likely to or not.....but, two things about the STD keep coming into my mind:

1) *you* think that being in the "shit" if enough of a deterrent to keep her from contacting him. (btw, my ex was adamant that he would never cheat on me again because he never wanted to do with "this shit" again -- he subsequently carried on w/ his cheating ways. But he's a total fuckstory, so not really a good comparison). My point is that once she is out of her environment (w/ you, in *normal* life), that she WILL initiate contact with that guy -- even if it's only to tell him "f*ck you for giving me herpes". It's that whole closure thing that everyone always talks about.

2) This other concern is that she is putting effort into the relationship for the wrong reason. I sense that she is maybe turning to you and attempting to make this work because of the STD. Getting you to stay on board with her makes her future much easier. But not so much for you -- you have a TON of risk in this situation (and she has pretty much none).

[This message edited by gonnabe2016 at 10:23 PM, May 23rd (Monday)]

The trip is a bad idea but you already know that. I'd have asked her to quit her job and find something w/o traveling for a while.

I agree with you regarding the polygraph. However, I still think you should do it, especially after she returns from the trip. The actual polygraph session doesn't matter. What matters is the parking lot confession you're sure going to get before she does it. Think of it as a bluff.

Topool,

Sorry pal, I'm not buying that your girlfriend cannot get out of this business trip. She can find a number of reasons without quitting her job ( like family emergency ) to not go.

Don't know what on earth you were thinking when she tells you she is going right back to the same place ( please don't tell me she is also staying in the same hotel), and you say "fine honey".

Now Nuance has just given you the best advice to either rebuild some trust or enable you to get off the pot and out of limbo land.

I do not give a shit what you think of polygraph tests. So you don't want to do one ( silly decision) but you call.

Do you have something against doing what Nuance has suggested and BLUFF her.

So if you are determined to sit there, and let her go, and talk to her every night and wonder what she is doing when you get off the phone, go right ahead.

But how about when she returns tell her she is taking a polygraph test and exactly what the questions are going to be even if you have no intention of doing it. My bet is you will get for sure another confession of breaking NC at a minimum.

And if that is 100% wrong and she says fine and thinks she is taking the test you might feel better.

Now all that aside, you can keep academically analyzing this until the sun does not shine, and there is going to be no lightning bolt that hits you with ANY guarantee that no matter what you choose there is 100% chance you are right.

Any big decision has some degree of fear and uncertainty in it or it ain't that big a decision.

Now you can go on and on here and for sure the percentage of what people are telling you will not change. I think you are up to 350 posts here and I do not think there has been one response that in any way thinks it is a real smart thing for you to walk down the aisle with this woman.

Ordinarily, if you were going to have any way to verify what she does or does not do on this trip, there would be a reason to let it happen. But if you are going to believe EVERYTHING she tells you when she returns based on her actions, I agree that it is strange that you continue to need any advice.

You refuse to do a polygraph to verify anything and until it appears she lets you catch her again, you ain't going anywhere. No matter what any one or everyone says you continue to defend her and you also have stated that if your brother told you this story you would probably give him the same advice everyone is giving you.

Now if you can afford it you might consider hiring a PI for when she initially arrives at this place because if she is going to break NC it is not going to be on the last night.

By the wya, this forum has been here a long time. That is why there are 50,000 members. So when you marry her, have kids, and are ready to jump off a cliff, you will get the same amount of people trying to talk some sense in to you.

Sorry if I pissed you off, but I do not see how anyone can tell you anything that has not been said. You choose no way to learn the truth other than trusting the person who has done this to you.

Bravo!

Toopol,

For a change, I will ask some questions that don't pertain to your WGF at all, but have everything to do with you:

1> Do you think you can be happy by yourself, without depending on another person, woman or man? Portraying a calm, centered, strong male presence?

2> Do you think you can envision a well-balanced life by yourself? A fulfilling career? Dabbling in hobbies that stimulate and relax you? Engage in activities that enrich you as well as others?

3> Do you think you have a good sense of having a purpose in life, e.g. what you offer to the universe in philosophical terms?

4> Are you comfortable with the ebbs and flows of life, with all its uncertainties and ambiguities?

5> Are you socially adept? Do you talk to infants and teens and boys and girls and the elderly?

I suspect the answer is no. And I'll tell you why. You relish the intellectual debate and critiquing w/r/t whether to stay or leave your GF, but when it comes to self-awareness, your comments are much less intellectual and far more knee-jerk, almost immature...

- that you're a "shitty" dater

- you doubt that you will find someone like her who will find you "attractive"

- you vacillate between feeling like a nerd or a catch

You, my friend, need a clean break, from not just this relationship, but from ANY romantic relationship for a while.

You like to research so here are a few books I've personally found very beneficial:

The New Mood Therapy - David Burns MD (talks a lot about how to recognize and manage cognitive biases, thereby controlling your thoughts that influence your emotions)

The Way of the Superior Man - David Deida (a new-agey but eloquent essay on the masculine spirit)

Take a break, go to the mountains or the beach by yourself for a week, read these books, meditate, exercise, eat healthy. Heal mentally and rejuvenate yourself physically.

Then separate from your GF, not necessarily breaking up with her. If she truly loves you, she will understand and let you go. Rent a studio apartment. Learn to appreciate your time alone. When separated, work on yourself on the questions above. Dating can happen at its own pace. Meet people at activities that you enjoy. Give your mind a respite from the recent trauma. Take up something like salsa and flirt with attractive women. I'm not saying take them home. Just get yourself in a more cheerful mood by harmless flirting. You will be surprised at how different you will feel.

So what happens then? Well, if you decide to return to your GF, you return with a clear mind - you are comfortable by yourself and happy, you want her back in your life to enrich it further. And if you decide you want to end the relationship, you end it with a clear mind - that you are comfortable by yourself and happy, and you either want to stay single for a while, or would like to find someone else now that you are confident and strong. No more hand-wringing and emotional turmoil.

Yes, I have practiced all that I have preached above. I am now a MUCH happier person overall and do not regret leaving my WW. Life is great!!

[This message edited by redbaron007 at 12:58 AM, May 24th (Tuesday)]

There is a saying, " the older you get, the smarter your dad gets". Meaning when you are young you think you know more than you really do. As you get more mature, you realize that those with more life experience have a ton of wisdom. You can read about war and get some idea of what it is like. Or you can talk to a combat veteran and get a much more detailed view.

This board is full of veterans. You can chose to ignore their collective life experience on infidelity. You can brush off the advice given here as just bitter people with an axe to grind. What ever helps you sleep at night. But you do so at your own peril.

Timetoact spelled it out. If you are going to beleive her no matter what, then what is the point?

toopol,

I think redbaron might be on to something with the get out of town approach. IMO, it would do you a world of good to just get in touch with yourself alone.

Look, I've been here a long time and one thing that continues to surprise me is how so many of these "remorseful" cheaters actually start showing their true colors once they start facing the consequences of their actions. Most of them go from saying all the right things to condemning you to eternal damnation almost instantaneously. Outside of the herpes, your GF hasn't really felt any consequences yet - you've been devastated, sure, but you're still living with her and you're still in a relationship with her, even if it's technically on hold right now.

If you're not willing to do the lie detector test, why not take yourself on a little retreat out and see how your GF reacts? At the very least, you'll get a week's worth of well-deserved peace...but I have a feeling you'll get oh so much more than that and your decision on which path to take will likely be much, much easier to make.

I've been here 10 years now. The only reason I stay is because I feel I owe it to the newer members to try and share my experiences especially the mistakes I have made. The collective wisdom that this board gives can not be found in a textbook, dissertation, lecture etc. Nor can be had by possessing a degree in psychology up to and including a PhD. The wisdom comes from actually walking the thousands of painful miles in the shoes of a BS. As a group we have pretty much seen it all, heard it all and pretty much can smell WS bullshit miles away. Its a sixth sense that can only be acquired by being a victim of infidelity and experiencing all the traps and pitfalls that go with it. The sound advice you've been given is from people who have actually made the same mistakes you're making right now. There is no better educator than those who have real life experience on the subject. Its the mistakes we have made that make us experts and for most of us we hate to see newbies make those very same mistakes. From what I've read of your story it appears your still being manipulated and your allowing your WGF to run the show. Its your life but I'd hate for you to wind up like me spending 20 years with someone who cared for themselves more than their spouse. Yes people make mistakes and can change but the best I'm sorry is not said in words, its said in actions by doing the hard work of finding out why things happened and making sure they never happen again.

I keep telling myself I'm not going to respond to your posts any more, I feel like you are baiting the group.

I've also wondered about the questions redbarron has asked. You seem to say one thing but have proof of something else in other posts Examples: I'm not going to go back and quote your words but if you question any of them let me know and I'll tell you where I got it.

- Our relationship/she is perfect except for this one thing.

a. You've been in couples counseling for years. Very few people do this during their "honeymoon period".

b. THIS ONE THING is a TWO WEEK SEXUAL AFFAIR. This isn't a dented fender, or being perpetually late... this shows she HAS a very broken moral compass.

c. also she gets depressed sometimes and I need to comfort her even if she is the cause of my pain.

I choose to believe MC over this group as a whole.

A. This is a MC...her job is to bring you together and it has been for years. The fact that during the middle of the MC your gf has a two week AFFAIR...I don't know, maybe MC's not working?

"I"m a romantic at heart, I want what my parent's had.... You say this in one breath and then the next you are saying things like...

A. Herpies are no big deal for people of my age group.

B. It's better to stay with a known cheater then find someone new that might cheat.

That this Affair will make us stronger as a couple.???? This one is just crazy talk. I think you are confusing hysterical bonding (look it up) with a "new found love for each other". Hysterical bonding is short lived and in the end all you will have is a lot of rug sweeping...and, in your case some herpes sores.

She's perfect except for this one thing....

This one kills me the most because you keep trying to make her the victim of this affair.

Please, please, please explain to me how her being naive and having poor boundaries could be an acceptable reason for ... Having sex with some random hotel clerk for two weeks while calling her bf and talking marriage with him each night. Write it out... You seem to be able to dismiss this in your mind but maybe if you see your logic in a post you will understand how flawed it is.

You use all these lame excuses like she was away, we were in a difficult time (you stressed with work) he lied to her (so what).

So I get this idea that my girlfriend is essentially still the same woman I fell in love with, and she just made a horrible horrible mistake,

How was SHE not the one to have sex with him for two weeks while talking marriage with you? How does this not make her a lie, a player, extremely manipulative, broken.. and a hotel clerk? how long after she met him? I have to add ...a slut. So you would rather believe this was some type (2 week) alien abduction then believe that your gf was showing your her real self on business trips?

Also, the word mistake... yea she made a MISTAKE every day for 14 days... she "accidentally" had sex with him every night. Oop, she pretended to be faithful and talked marriage with after screwing around... She didn't leave the milk out, this wasn't a "mistake" don't keep minimizing it.

The poloygraph - is there a chance that you don't want to do this because you are afraid she will fail? One simple question like

-- Was she suspicious about the STD prior to telling you the truth? Could have you question everything about her. You would really have to think about who you were about to marry? How many Affairs did she have? Might be better to keep painting this angelic image of her and not find out the truth.

- I know my gf and I'm sure she didn't know about the STD prior to telling me. Again, you have this "image" of your gf you won't let go of regardless of the logic/facts. SHE DID have the AFFAIR this IS your gf... did you know she was capable of that?

- you state she only told you because she was soooo remorseful for what she had done. Could a person that was capable of that overwhelming remorsefulness... have sex with a guy every night and talk marriage with her bf a few hours later? No. The type of person that could do something like that is the type of person that was planning on keeping the whole Affair a secret.

You keep saying you aren't ready to Reconcile but... you are in Couples Counseling and have been for the past 4 weeks. She never moved out so you have been living together and discussing things daily, and having sex... sorry buddy that sounds like you are in reconcile. Please post how this is not being in Reconcile.

[This message edited by Freeme at 8:31 AM, May 26th (Thursday)]

Every single member has given you great advice.

Read..over and over..And over again...Timetoact, and Freeme's last posts. Spectacular advice.

Over...And over..And over.

And over.