SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I know, hence the problem, I have checked up on the polygraph places and they are legit. Something to keep in the back of my mind.

I get he will always be there as long as she is in her current job maybe anyways and I know his wife has totally rugswept everything.

Hard to believe no one at her work knows about it. How do you keep it a secret for so long? I'm sure someone figured it out

[This message edited by achilles1101 at 1:27 AM, May 11th (Monday)]

Can I ask, do you feel loved by her? I mean I know you don’t feel loved by what she did in the past, but can you feel that she loves you by what she is doing and saying now?

I mean she is doing some things, exposing to her family, MC (it should be IC concurrently for her), trying to make you a nice anniversary dinner.

But do you feel that she actually loves you? Do you feel that she wants you? Do you feel that she cares that she hurts you? Do you think she feels awful that she caused you such pain?

If so, how does she do that? How does she make you feel that way?

That’s all important. If she’s just going thru the motions because she thinks it’s the right thing to do and doesn’t want people to think she’s a piece of shit, then is that who you really want to share a life with?

While I think a monthly poly is important as long as she works with the POSOM. And I think you should also use Fonelab on her phone at random times for a long while, if you don’t feel loved, what’s the point?

[This message edited by Stevesn at 6:14 AM, May 11th (Monday)]

Stevesn,

Good question. I have obviously been blind for a long time. I have pondered that question recently and I can honestly say yes.

She has finally showed me real emotion that is not just anger. I can see embarrassment and shame in her face now when we talk about the affair as apposed to defensiveness. I think this has forced her to look hard at herself and after the initial "I fixed myself" stage she seems to actually understand the self esteem issues she has.

Telling her family was a bit of a shock, but I think also helped her see what she had done to me and her family, her mom is clearly devastated and let her know that.

She seems to finally have shaken off the protection mode and is proactively doing things without me having to tell her. (counseling, NC letter, job search, telling her family)

I guess the biggest thing is the feeling of vulnerability she has shown me. She knows we are on the ragged edge and can go either way. She has come back to me after nasty fights and tried to resolve them. We both know she would be fine financially after a divorce, so that is not an issue.

I am no longer as naïve as I was just a month ago. I understand significant issues still lay in front of us and the outcome is still uncertain.

A lot of rambling and I am not sure I answered the question, but it's how I feel.

Have you used Fonelab? Is that the best system to recover deleted items? I am tech stupid and have no idea

[This message edited by achilles1101 at 4:13 AM, May 11th (Monday)]

I have not. So others here are going to have to answer tech questions you might have. Anecdotally that seems to be the best tool.

Thanks for the answer.

The second part of that question I asked is, does she care that you were hurt. A worthy WS who is a candidate for R would be devastated that their BH is in great pain and they were the cause of it. While of course different hurt than the BS feels, it would still be quite unbearable.

So I ask separately, do you think understands the pain she caused you and cares about it more than what she is going through.

I think you need to require that she start IC concurrently with your MC. That she start with someone who specializes in Infidelity.

I’ll ask you one more question. For almost 5 years, who was more her husband that she truly cared about and would do anything for? You? Or the POSOM?

Can you honestly say she deferred your wishes over his during that time? In other words, if you both asked something of her, and the requests conflicted, whose would she prioritize? My guess is his. In fact I’m wondering if she would have ever refused something he asked for.

She needs to work in IC to figure out why she thought it was right to give away all the good parts of a relationship to another man. To do that work is part of showing she cares for the pain the answers to these questions cause you.

Does she care that I was hurt?

I believe so. She constantly tells me she is sorry she hurt me and it seems genuine. I think she gets it or she would not have told her family which was very painful for her.

We talked to the MC about IC and we are hoping to make that happen. We need to figure out how through her EAP.

I don't know how to answer the last question, her relationship with him was almost entirely conducted at work, with text messages from home after I went to work, the kids went to bed, and his wife went to bed. I don't know if there ever would have been a conflict with something I asked.

He was never like a husband to her, it was more a fantasy thing. It would seem she traded sex for the feeling of being desirable and the attention he gave her. It never seemed to cross over into something that would conflict with me.

It is true that she gave him the best of herself while I got the good and the bad.

If I understand it correctly, The affair waxed and waned. After the first year when it was pretty regular the affair stopped for about 6 months or so when he told his wife. There appears to have been other periods where it paused for months. That's one of the things I don't really understand, the affair seems to die down and then she would allow it to start up again.

I think I answered your question.

Ok. Honestly I would ask her, “during your affair, who was your love? Who did you consider the love of your life? Who did you want to spend your life with. During your affair, Was it him or me? And whom is it now”.

Then I’d tell her that it seems she would have done anything he asked for him. That she would risk her family for him.

Finally ask her what she’s willing to risk now for you? Does she love you enough to risk anything for you, her reputation? embarassment? The view others have of her? I can see that telling her family can be considered a part of of taking that risk.

You may never, probably won’t, ever ask her to do something that would risk those things (Like revealing her A at work), but I think you deserve to know how far she would go to win your heart back. Is it as far as she risked with the AP?

I am glad you said you think she now feels your pain which she inflicted on you. Without that, I don’t think it could be said that she cares enough to really do what needs to be done from her side to truly rebuild.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 10:59 AM, May 11th (Monday)]

She has told me that she never loved him and neither one of them intended to leave their spouses. She said she still loved me during the affair and loves me now.

I don't know that I really understand but she said the attraction to him was that he was attracted to her, or professed to be, and that he thought she was attractive, sexy and desirable. That a friendship got out of control. Boundaries got set and then pushed back and then back and back until it was out of control. It seems like she thought she could control what was happening and allowed things to escalate anyway. Not to downplay her role as it takes 2 to tango, but it seems she got seriously manipulated into doing what he wanted.

We have talked about why she would risk her marriage for him. She said she was selfish and figured I would not be hurt if I did not know. I guess that is why she hid it so well.

Two of her closest friends at work asked her about her not wearing her wedding ring. She didn't come right out and say she had an affair, but insinuated that she did.

Funny that feeling my pain came up on the forum today. She texted me today that she would not hurt me again and that she understood how much she had hurt me. She said she could see it in my eyes. (condensed version)

[This message edited by achilles1101 at 2:31 PM, May 11th (Monday)]

She said she was selfish and figured I would not be hurt if I did not know.

Ive seen this written a lot. But here’s the part that shows if she truly has remorse. A true spouse, one that loves honors Respect and cherishes, should be Hurt FOR their betrayed spouse!

Does that make sense? The definition of respect of a husband or wife is that you never want them to be made a fool of behind their back. If someone was making a fool of my wife I would shut that down in an instance, chastise who was doing it, and embrace my wife in a protective virtual hug.

If it were me making a fool of her, that would be 1000 times worse than someone else doing it. And I couldn’t stand myself for doing it, during or after I was found out.

She may not FEEL hurt if she didn’t find out, but just knowing I did it should would and should make me hurt, ache, for what had been done to her. That’s how your wife should have and should now feel about you. That’s what she needs to find in IC, so I’m hoping she can start that soon.

If i were you, and this idea resonates with you, I’d share it with her. These are the things she needs to find within her and feel if she’s going to become a spouse that can share in happiness together with you again.

She may not have loved him, but the way her actions hurt you, whether you knew it or not, Certainly showed she cared for him, and more than she cared for you during those years.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 4:17 PM, May 11th (Monday)]

I get what you are saying.

Obviously she did not respect me enough not to cheat. I could never hurt her like that, she did. I think it is a character flaw that I saw a long time ago and foolishly thought I could fix.

I think she hurts for me and not just for herself. The problem is she should have known how much I would hurt and that should have been enough to prevent this from happening.

I think she is a good person with serious flaws and those flaws hurt me. Now, seeing how much she hurt me and herself, can she fix those flaws so it doesn't happen again. That is the question

I don't know that she cared for him so much as she cared for herself. She felt she was missing something and he provided it. It seems to have been done not for him so much but what he could provide her that she thought she was missing

[This message edited by achilles1101 at 4:59 PM, May 11th (Monday)]

That's one of the things I don't really understand, the affair seems to die down and then she would allow it to start up again.

That was because she wanted to continue. A rational decision was made. NOT a mistake.

but it seems she got seriously manipulated into doing what he wanted.

Oh please.... just no. She let herself be manipulated. She damn well knew what she was doing.

I think she is a good person

It would read better being in the past tense. A good person would not do this. A good person would not be in this position she is in now.

At the moment, it does not look like your WW is at the 100% owning it stage. She insinuates that she had an affair. She is holding a pity party for her loss. She lost her boyfriend. She lost your trust in her. She lost the lovely stolen moments she had with her boyfriend. She lost her fantasy life.

Apart from those 'losses' above, what other consequences has she had? Hows her job hunting going, or is that just a red herring?

Will she get to actual remorse? Only time will tell.

Hi Achilles,

Given everything that has happened, and that you and your wife are in the MC process, it is a good time for you to take a step back and think about how much you may have compromised or turned a blind eye to during the marriage, and whether some of your accommodation of your wife's flaws inadvertently enabled them to continue unchallenged and unaddressed.

I think it is very good that you have accepted that you cannot fix your wife - as you once believed you could - and that only she can do that, providing she is actually capable of that (which remains to be seen).

As part of that, it would be good for you to step back and consider what you need to see - and it needs to be tangible actions - if you are going to continue the marriage. You need to get this clarity for yourself, and make it a non-negotiable checklist.

I also think it would be good for you and your wife to write out your definitions of love, what the word means, and how you believe it manifests itself. Both of you need to understand how close your interpretations of 'love' are, because if your wife believes she loved you while actively pursuing her affair, she clearly has an understanding of love that includes abusive behaviour like lies, betrayal, and sex with other people.

There have been discussions here about whether 'love' is a feeling/emotion, or an action.

Personally, I believe the two things are inseparable, and that a feeling/emotion that is not accompanied by supporting actions is basically worthless, and essentially meaningless. Your wife needs to investigate how she loved you while having her affair, because the two things are not compatible in any healthy interpretation of love.

I think your wife needs to demonstrate a commitment to who she wants to be as a person, as opposed to who she wants to appear to be.

In one of your early posts, you said that your wife was worried about people at her work finding out about her affair and thinking of her as the 'office whore'. In effect, she was far more concerned about people knowing about her actions than she was about actually committing those actions.

That is troubling.

It suggests that she believes that abuse and wrong-doing are fine in themselves as long as she does not get caught doing them. The principle of appearance mattering more than substance.

I might be reading too much into this, but I was struck by your wife's mother responding to your wife's confession about the affair by saying that her perfect baby was perfect no more (and the impact that had on your wife). It made me wonder if the origin of your wife separating appearance and substance in her life might have been her trying to appear 'perfect' to her Mom, while falling short of that in the reality of her life.

Is it possible that your wife's perfectionist mother left her with a sense of inadequacy about who she really is that has led her to (1) present a false facade to the world that does not match her reality, and (2) has made her dependent on external validation to an unhealthy degree, leaving her vulnerable to advances from blatant opportunists like her affair partner?

Those are things that she needs to work on in her IC, and she should keep you informed about her progress, because she needs to stop living a life based on appearance and reality being so different. They need to be the same thing, and that goes beyond the issue of infidelity.

Hopefully your wife will commit to making those changes, because both of you would benefit from them.

[This message edited by M1965 at 2:27 PM, May 12th (Tuesday)]

Ok, maybe it is past time to address the elephant in my room.

My wife suffered non familial abuse as a child, reported and prosecuted. This left her with low self esteem, as a huge flirt and with a need for male attention.

When I said I thought I could fix her, what I meant was since I loved her I thought if I loved her enough, I could fill all the holes in her.

Hopefully this gives some insight on why I didn't go straight D, why I try to take some of the responsibility for the affair and why I think she is still a good person.

Her mom's perfect child was perfect because she overcame so much to do so much until now. Infidelity caused her mom to say that.

So maybe everyone understands a little more why things are even more difficult for me. I know I didn't cause any of it, but I swore to love , honor and cherish. I don't take that lightly even at my own expense.

Now I am trying to deal with all of it.

[This message edited by achilles1101 at 2:42 PM, May 12th (Tuesday)]

Achilles,

Your latest post adds a lot more depth and context to your situation.

Childhood abuse can leave its victims with a lot of damaged ideas about themselves and how to relate to others in adult relationships. It is a hugely complex subject, and your wife really needs a specialist to help her navigate through it, possibly a psychiatrist, not just a run of the mill relationship counselor.

Your stance is noble, and I respect you for it.

I think that the best thing you can do for both of you is to ensure that your wife finally sees a professional who understands CSA who can help her to fill in the gaps in her self-perception, because she is the only person who can do that.

You tried, and God bless you for that, but this needs specialist knowledge and techniques that 99% of us simply do not have.

And you yourself have your own healing and issues to deal with now, and I hope that your wife will support you in that as you intend to support her in the issues she must deal with.

From what you write in your posts, you have taken a firm but not vindictive or punishing approach, and by sticking to that you do seem to be making inroads into your wife's belief that you will always be there, regardless of what she does. That is a good thing, because hopefully it will motivate her to make the changes that you both need her to make.

There are others here who have been victims of CSA, or been married to victims of it, and maybe some of them will chip in to your thread and add their insight.

As far as you not going straight for the nuclear option of divorce, people who do that never go looking for forums like these. If the nuclear option was the only option, or the obvious option, this forum would not have more than seventy thousand members, and it is only one out of the many forums that handle various aspects of infidelity.

People come here to think things through, and to try and figure out what they want to do, and how they can make it work (or if they can make it work). 'Shock and awe' is not the only tactic, and nuclear is not the only option.

Thank you for providing more insight, Achilles. I know it is a tough thing to open up about, but hopefully it will help all of us do our best to help you get through this and achieve the goals you are aiming for.

Thanks for letting us know. Gives us more insight into her thought processes.

I actually came back here to write something about your WW and saw your post. I still want to say it even in light of what you wrote.

Achilles, I’m glad your wife appears to be starting to think in the right direction. I’m encouraged by it. I think you should be too. Not exactly excited. But encouraged.

I see it as her having a long journey to rebuilding what her affair destroyed, and until now, she’s been walking quickly with attitude in the opposite direction.

Right now, i see her as having stopped, turned around to look at the journey ahead of her, and taking one step on that path (telling her family can be seen as that step).

No she may be standing in Chicago looking at NYC ( along walk), but at least she’s headed in the right direction. And that’s good.

Here’s the thing though. Her still being in contact, even benign contact, in my opinion means you will never fully heal. It will be hindered every time his name is mentioned. And so she may make the effort, do the labor to get to nyc, and when she gets there, you’ll be gone. And all the energy expended will have happened with the stack decked against you both.

To me, that is why it’s so important to get into a situation where NC is complete with the POSOM.

Now your revelation brings in further obstacles. A wife who has unresolved issues that cause her to seek comfort and attention in the arms of other men greatly lowers the odds that she can be a safe spouse to you. She never was because of it.

No one should have to go through what she did as a child. But that doesn’t mean you have to dedicate your life living with someone who can’t ever promise to be faithful. You have a right to happiness as much as she does. You have had your own obstacles in your life too. Maybe not the same, but those that can be used to justify any poor behavior. We all do.

So I still believe that while it’s ok to tell her that you are encouraged by the direction she is now facing, you cannot let you get excited about it until the OM is out of your lives completely.

I understand the healthcare cost issues. But she needs to be actively looking. If she’s all in that means twice a week she’ll ask you to sit down and help her look for and apply for a new job. I wouldn’t personally stay if she wasn’t willing to do that.

And I’d tell her, pandemic or not, she needs to tell her boss she will no longer participate on conf calls or email threads or team messaging with him on it. She has to find a way to make that happen so that the times she has to report communication with him to you are greatly decreased, which in turn will increase the chance you have at rebuilding something new.

If she’s truly facing the right direction now, she should WANT to do that for both of you.

Hope my ideas make sense to you.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 3:40 PM, May 12th (Tuesday)]

I really do appreciate everyone's input and help trying to get through this.

It was hard to open up about, it shouldn't be, it's neither of ours's fault. I guess the stigma of it still exists.

I understand the work thing. Every thing that has him to do with stresses me out. She forwarded a scheduling email from her boss showing he would not be at her office at all this week (used to be once a week for a partial day) and he was cc'd on it. She didn't notice and was trying to reassure me and inadvertently stressed me.

She is still looking for another job, but everyone in her field is getting their hours cut or are being furloughed.

Thanks for all the advise and encouragement.

Achilles,

All of us are here because we have a reason to be here.

If any of us were so damn smart or clairvoyant or kick-ass all-knowing alpha males, none of us would have traveled here via Google and taken up residence.

And yet here we all are.

So please do not ever think that the people who post in your thread presume some kind of superiority over you. We are all here because someone we trusted bushwhacked us.

What people here offer is not what they knew before infidelity hit them, but what they learnt after it hit them.

If any of this ever seems unsympathetic, or superior, or dismissive, that is a only because a post failed to cover all the bases. The truth is that we are all right there beside you, walking the same path, and passing on whatever we learnt the hard way. None of us handled infidelity like a champion, because we had no idea about it until we were unexpectedly thrown into the deep end.

The key for you is to pick out the stuff that resonates with you. If we throw a hundred darts at your thread, and you pick out ten that hit your target, it is still a productive process.

We want the best for you, Achilles.

I certainly appreciate the advice I have been given here. I had no idea what I was doing and reached out for help anywhere I could get it. When you hurt this badly I guess you humble yourself.

Some advice stings but is accurate, some stings and is not. I have tried to take what may work in my situation and apply it. It doesn't always work, but I have no idea what I am doing and am grasping at straws.

To those that have actually given a shit about me and tried to help me, I say thank you from the bottom of my heart> I could not have gotten this far without you. I have no idea what the future holds, but I know I am better prepared thanks to you.

Everything M1965 said. Spot on. Everyone here has suffered and just wants the suffering to stop. Sometimes it goes over well, and sometimes it doesn't. We're not all healed in the same way either.

You sound better, stronger, clearer. You notice that I didn't mention R because that is a separate beast, but YOU, you sound a little more certain that you will make it. And that is great progress. Everyone is pulling for your happiness, we don't care where you find it.

Thank you, I don't feel stronger. I still feel like I am flailing away in the dark.

Knowing what to do and doing it are two very different things.

Wanting to believe and believing don't coincide. I am trying to be strong but feel weak.

Sometimes I feel like D is the best option and sometimes I want to make things work. Sometimes it seems like she sees the light and sometimes it is just darkness.

Thanks for all the support.

I guess I am feeling a little melancholy tonight, nothing seems to be going well. Sorry, I don't have anywhere else to turn.