SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

ok, so now the next question would be, how do I deal with this?

First of all, a minor 2x4. You have 20 pages here of people telling you how to deal with this. Many of us have posted dozens of times. It’s all good advice. And my current advice is to start from the beginning and read it all again. And this time, do it with pen and paper. Write down every good idea you read and make a list of steps you can take. By the end of the 20 pages you should at least have a full page of good actions to take.

Sorry if that was harsh but I think it’s a good idea to do.

As far as her compartmentalizing, I think it’s the same category of sayings that I wrote about a few pages back where she said she didn’t think it would hurt you if you didn’t know.

In that case I told you that she should have seen that it hurt you THAT SHE KNEW what they were doing behind your back. It should pain her that she and he had made a fool of you. She shouldn’t be able to stand herself for that. If she truly loves you like she says she did, she wouldn’t have been able to do that to the man she loved and if she loves you now, she should truly ache with pain for having done it.

That’s the first thing you should write on that List. That you should tell her what I wrote in the previous paragraph.

The compartmentalizing is the same. She says that having an affair at work did not affect her love of you as her husband. When people say that, I always think, did they not listen to their vows when they were being said? Did they think they vowed to “live honor and cherish” ONLY WHEN THEY ARE HOME WITH YOU?!? It’s such bullshit. Adults know it’s wrong to do what she did. I find that excuse to be transparent, dishonorable, and disingenuous.

If she has more than a 6th grade knowledge of relationships she knows and knew that what she was doing was wrong. Is saying she didn’t think about you and your feelings when she was at work supposed to make you feel better? It would make me feel worse.

So there’s the second thing for your list. Call her on that bullshit. Let her know that the fact she says she was able to compartmentalize when away from you makes you feel LESS SAFE, not more and that is why she needs to be in IC to figure out how and why she did that.

Next, I told you a few pages back that I saw your wife turn and face the right direction Finally and take a first step (telling her family). Now’s the time to tell her those are the types of things she needs to do to save her marriage if that is what she wants to do.

But also let her know that the road is long for her to rebuild. And that while you are hopeful she has it in her to want it and to actually do the things she needs to in order to make it happen, you are also not yet convinced she does. That your not yet a believer that she loves you enough to care for your pain and help you in your healing. That you don’t know that she cares enough to make you safe again in the relationship. She needs to show you she is every day.

That’s number 3.

And the biggest part of that, is getting the AP out of your lives forever. Communicate that you understand the difficulty in getting a new job right now, but when the world opens up, you will have little patience for her remaining in the situation she is in. And if she truly wants her marriage more than anything she will do whatever it takes to never work, see or hear from him again. And that means not working at the same company and never communicating with him for any reason ever again.

So if she wants that, she needs to start laying the groundwork for a plan to make that happen. She needs to start that now.

And if she doesn’t, no matter what else she does, you won’t remain in such a relationship going forward.

Achilles, some BS say they can handle it as long as they are doing the right things in other areas. I couldn’t. You say it yourself. Even when she tells you how she won’t have contact this week because he won’t be in her area, you both have to discuss it, think about him, and remember what she did with him. That won’t go away.

So that’s the 4th thing to put on your list. While you can tell her you appreciate the direction she is now facing and the early steps she is taking, all of it will be destroyed if she stays in a situation where you have to hear about him every day or week. And that she should actually desire to get out of that situation to make right what she chose so wrong for both you and herself.

Those are my thoughts to your question. I hope they help.

[edited for typos]

[This message edited by Stevesn at 6:05 AM, May 19th (Tuesday)]

My wife says she has always loved me, even during the affair. Can that be.

So, I do remember thinking stuff like this, like did I matter and did he love me. But honestly, I am embarrassed when I look back, embarrassed that I obsessed over silly romantic notions that can never be measured or known. I'm embarrassed that I allowed myself to be placated by things like promises of how he felt, memories of what he supposedly thought, and piles of words of affirmation. I mean, "Hey, dumbshit! (Talking to myself.) Why don't you realize your own worth by avoiding these kinds of silly questions and topics? He's gonna tell you what you want to hear, idiot! None of this matters! Pick yourself up, dust yourself off, demand healthy, giving, and generous behaviors. And that's it!"

Eventually I got smarter and tougher. I realized that I did not need or want to hear any of this crap as I honestly couldn't be sure it was true no matter what. It made me feel foolishly insecure and needy to even ask, and believing it felt worse!!!! So it stopped. I knew my worth, and I knew that asking if your abuser loved you while they were hurting you--as if it freaking mattered at that point--was about the most codependent thing I could do. My strength had to, had to, had to come from me. My value had to come from me. I told him, "Never tell me with words that you love me. Ever. Words are meaningless and easy. If you love me, treat me that way. I'll know." And things are still like that today.

You are chasing your tail wondering if she loved you. I mean seriously, her actions tell you all you need to know. When you feel bad, love yourself.

Stevesn,

Overall I am doing a lot better. I guess I am the type of person that needs to understand things. I have a tendency to get hung up on things I don't understand, ie: loving me during the affair. I think that is the real question. How do I deal with things I don't understand? Intellectually I think I get that there are things I will never understand because I could never do what she did. The problem is my desire to understand, I feel like I need to understand to make any kind of sense of it.

The four things you break down in your post I have done to varying degrees.

I told her that whether or not I knew what she was doing, she did and knew it would hurt me. I don't remember exactly what she said, but something about being selfish and allowing herself to believe I didn't care.

I have called her out on her B.S. she has been better about not trying to justify things, except see above.

I have also made it very clear that while she can influence whether we rebuild our marriage by her actions, I will decide whether that rebuild actually occurs.

The job issue is a little more complicated due to current events. I made it clear that any possibility of contact, no matter of the type is a stressor to me. She has been looking, I have seen the search results, but nothing yet.

Anyway, a 2x4 is needed every once in a while to snap me out of a funk and there is definitely no hard feelings

The obsessive need to understand is normal and part of trauma response. Infidelity is a trauma and there are often symptoms of PTSD in BS. I felt like you do. I NEEDED to understand. It was driving me crazy. My counselor told me that I had to learn to be ok with the fact that there might never be answers that I would find satisfying. That made sense to me. It was apparent at the time that I wanted answers that would make sense to me, but this was not always the case. You hit the nail on the head when you said:

I think I get that there are things I will never understand because I could never do what she did.

BS do not have the capacity to rationalize and live in denial around infidelity the way that WS do, so we ultimately will not be able to understand. It's like trying to understand addiction of you are not an addict. You can relate, but never truly understand. Hope that makes sense. BTW I am NOT saying that all BS are addicts, but ALL BS are dishonest and they are all lacking in integrity, so there is some basis for comparison.

Regarding the compartmentalization issue. I look at it this way. It helps me to try to understand the Wayward way of thinking even though it is not a perfect fit. I am an alcoholic. When I was drinking, I had to get my "fix". Did I know it hurt the people I love to continue to drink? Yes. Did I think about stopping? Frequently. The obsession to drink was bigger than I was, bigger than my capacity for rational thought. Even though I knew it hurt people, I was able to put them in the back of my mind and rationalize my drinking. I would say to myself, that it was just one more time, that I could hide it and no one would know I was drinking, that I could have both my family AND alcohol. Alcohol made me feel like I was worthwhile and special and grandiose (even though the opposite was surely true). The consequences to my continued drinking were obvious, but I lived in denial, ignoring the fallout from my behavior. When I sobered up, I was full of guilt and shame and horror for what I had done. These feelings caused me to want to drink again so I could avoid the pain of being myself and feel "good" again. I had to hit bottom in order to stop. This is when the pain of continued drinking was too much to pay. Nicing me was not going to get me to stop drinking. I used that niceness and understanding to continue to manipulate and drink. There had to be consequences implemented and enforced that forced me to make a choice. Bottoms are different for all addicts and alcoholics. Some respond to consequences and some do not. Some will refuse a better life in order to continue to destroy their own lives and the lives around them. This explanation helps me to try to wrap my head around my FWH's mindset during his affair. Again, I know it is not a perfect comparison, but it is one that makes sense to me.

Maybe my alcoholism and finding sobriety helped me to understand the mind of my own WS. This helps to EXPLAIN his actins but in no way EXCUSES them. In any case, I know that it is possible to compartmentalize. I did it myself.

One thing that has always bothered me, My wife says she has always loved me, even during the affair. Can that be. She says she compartmentalized things and work (him) was work, and home (ME) was home. Can this even be true? I obviously think you can't cheat on the one you love, so I really can't get my head around this.

I know she wasn't going to leave me for him and believe she didn't love him. (Different motivation for the affair)

I still don't get this.

Achilles, sorry for being a bit late to reply to this, but have you ever wondered how people live with themselves after committing bad actions? Put simply, they invent a script that enables them to feel fine about themselves in spite of what they did, or want to keep doing keep doing.

Your wife knew what she was doing was wrong, because she hid it, and lied for four years.

If she thought it was right, and no big deal, why didn't she ever say to you, "Honey, is it okay if I sleep with Doug from Marketing? I have no plans to leave you for him, I really don't think I love him, and of course you know that the only reason I am sleeping with him is because I love you. So what do you say? Can I go?"

She never told you those things, did she? And the reason she never told you those things is not just because she and her possessions would have been kerbside before she finished speaking, but because those things were never intended to be told to you. They are what she told herself so she didn't have to hate herself for abusing your love and trust for four years.

The first time a betrayed spouse ever hears the twisted logic, mental acrobatics, half-baked justifications, and unpleasant emotional monkey shines that comprise the 'process' of the wayward mind-set is AFTER their playful little secret has been discovered.

And what a lot of discovered waywards seem to think is that as their home-cooked stew of self-serving nonsense helped them to love themselves despite what they were doing, then maybe giving their victim a big, steaming serving of the same stew will help you to love them too, and see that what they did was really not so bad, and nothing to get so upset about.

The trouble is, that stew tastes different to the victim, compared to how it tastes to the wayward, but that should come as no surprise.

The things your wife said are what she told herself so she could still love herself while she cheated on you. Anyone with half a brain knows you cannot love a person and punch them repeatedly in the face, steal from them, or cheat on them. That is why you are struggling with what your wife said; you would like to believe it, but your intelligence keeps stopping you.

So you know what you should do? Stop trying! You can put your hand in a fire a thousand times to see if just one time it makes your hand feel cold, but it never will. And you can try to make yourself believe the hogwash that your wife projected onto her bad actions for the next thousand years, and you will never do it. So accept it for what it is - hogwash - and put your energy into something more positive.

One positive thing that you can do is take your wife's documenting of her cheating 'process' and ask her, her IC, and your MC, how your wife is going to pull that mechanism apart and throw away the key so that everyone concerned can start to believe that she will never sneak out to the barn one night to try and get that old hot-rod fired up for another joyride.

Compartmentalizing is a classic component of messed-up thinking, and you will find examples of it whenever people have done bad things that they wanted to do. If your wife has admitted to it, that is actually a great thing, because her IC, and maybe even your MC, can focus on fixing that, so that your wife will finally understand that she and everyone around her are standing in one big compartment, called life.

There are no barriers, no walls, no convenient little boxes to drop people into that protect them from being hurt. Everything takes place in one big compartment, as your wife has just discovered.

I have always wondered why waywards think that saying they 'compartmentalized' somehow makes what they did better. I always wonder why the victim never says, "Okay, but why did you put me into a compartment that had, "It is fine to lie to this person and abuse their love and trust for years" on the door? Why would you put me in a compartment like that? Why would you put any other human being in a compartment like that?"

What Notmine says is exactly right; understanding the dysfunctional process that a person used to enable them to abuse another person in no way excuses it, or lessens the impact of their actions.

What I suggest is that understanding how the process works is a good starting point for pulling it apart and seeing if it can be replaced with something better.

So keep encouraging your wife to dig into her process and document it, because that is the stuff that she will need to change if she is going to become a safe life partner for you, and an honest, authentic person in herself.

Edited to add: These stages can be painful and exhausting to work through, but that is how progress is made. And you are making progress, Achilles.

It can be tempting to take a shortcut, not do what needs to be done, and rug-sweep. That never works out well. You are doing the right thing, identifying what needs to be fixed, and you are not giving your wife a free pass to do nothing.

I hope your wife will step up to the plate and do her part.

You are a good man, and we all want what is best for you.

[This message edited by M1965 at 4:39 AM, May 20th (Wednesday)]

One thing that has always bothered me, My wife says she has always loved me, even during the affair. Can that be. She says she compartmentalized things and work (him) was work, and home (ME) was home. Can this even be true? I obviously think you can't cheat on the one you love, so I really can't get my head around this.

Standard WS speak and BS thinking.

Lots of WSes, probably almost all, say they always loved their BSes. I have 2 thoughts about that.

1) Several years ago a WS here described how s/he loved the BS while cheating. I thought the description made good sense, and I thought I filed it away. If I did, I can't 'find' it. When my W trotted out this line, our MC, who was also my W's IC, said she didn't think my W showed much love towards me during her A. So ... maybe your W loved you, maybe she thought she loved you, maybe those of us who think 'nope' are right.

2) No matter what, whether the WS loved the BS or not, the BS is traumatized by the A and d-day and often the WS's behavior after d-day. That pain added to the BS's burden. That pain has to be processed. Love during the A has nothing to do with healing from the pain.

*****

Shirley Glass says that As happen in good Ms when the WS lacks sufficient boundaries. When that happens, I believe a WS can cheat on the one s/he loves. That belief helped me choose R. I'm not saying that as an argument; rather I'm sharing some of the complex thought process that went into my decision-making.

You get to - have to - find your own way through this mess. The test isn't how other people have found their way - it's how you find your way. To thine own self be true....

*****

My reasons for interrogating my W was to gain THE understanding of her A. I never succeeded. You're getting it - you won't understand the A.

(I did get other benefits - my W's willingness to answer questions honestly started to rebuild my trust.)

part of the problem is I don't want actions so much as I want to look in her face and see the remorse, something you can't hide, something that just is. I guess maybe I want to see the emotion she says she sees in my eyes, something you can't fake, something real. Is that possible?

Things don't matter as much as true feelings, I want to know it is real, I want to feel it.

[This message edited by achilles1101 at 3:23 AM, May 21st (Thursday)]

I reread my post and wonder why I wrote it, until it reminded me of a call years ago outside of my beat, I was the only one available. It was a conflict between a mother and her son. I took the time to actually talk to both of them. That was back when we were just putting band aids on problems. I looked in her eyes and she really appreciated what I had tried to do for them. She asked if I could come back and I had to tell her since they were off my beat probably not. I hated it but that was the reality.

I never knew if I helped them or not, I'd like to think I did. But when I looked in her face I saw True emotion, that is what I want to see from my wife

[This message edited by achilles1101 at 11:02 PM, May 20th (Wednesday)]

The lies you tell yourself are more damaging than the affair.

A four year affair is tough to get over. That is long term cheating. Calculated. Planned. Executed. All conscious decisions.

If the cheater has deep remorse and is committed to reconciling you can be successful. No matter how long the affair lasted.

The issue is how do you know if the remorse is genuine? You don’t know until time has passed and you see consistent behavior with transparency and honesty. You see a change in the cheater.

My H had to move mountains to get me to consider R. I did not help him or support him or encourage him. He was on his own. He either figured it out or I D him. Luckily he was on the right path.

But I did not have to look to see if there were any changes. I saw them immediately and consistently. They weren’t words and empty promises. I could see the shame and remorse in his eyes. It was obvious. I didn’t have to sit and wait and hope.

I wasn’t telling myself any lies like “he didn’t mean to hurt me” or “he didn’t love the OW”. Your wife may realize NOW she didn’t love the AP but I would bet the ranch they professed their love to each other.

Like I said it’s the lies you tell yourself that are more damaging.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 4:00 AM, May 21st (Thursday)]

I'm not sure what lies I am telling myself. I am sure there is some denial, but lies not so sure. This affair is the strangest thing I have ever seen, if I have read it right. Pretty sure they didn't love each other. He very clearly used her and she equally allowed herself to be used. For whatever reason. I am trying to get to the bottom of that to discuss in counseling.

4 plus years is brutal, I get the lies and planning and all the other deceit that went into that.

But that is not what I am talking about. I am not asking her to move mountains, just show me true remorse and love. I will move the mountains if I see that, that's my job. Give me something solid.

[This message edited by achilles1101 at 6:15 AM, May 21st (Thursday)]

Do you feel yet that she is putting in more effort to try and rebuild the trust and relationship she destroyed than she put into having the affair?

I would need to feel that she was showing me that I not only was as important to her as the AP was during the affair but 10 or 100 times more. That would be part of what I’d need to feel from her before even deciding to try with her. Until I felt that, I’d not be interested.

I understand what you are saying. I think you need to be able to get from her that she cares. That she cares she hurts you. That she’s devastated that you were hurt and she was the cause of it. Again, you need that in order to be able to start seeing a life with her beyond the next few months.

I'm not sure what lies I am telling myself. I am sure there is some denial, but lies not so sure. This affair is the strangest thing I have ever seen, if I have read it right. Pretty sure they didn't love each other. He very clearly used her and she equally allowed herself to be used. For whatever reason. I am trying to get to the bottom of that to discuss in counseling.

4 plus years is brutal, I get the lies and planning and all the other deceit that went into that.

But that is not what I am talking about. I am not asking her to move mountains, just show me true remorse and love. I will move the mountains if I see that, that's my job. Give me something solid.

Achilles1101,

Maybe it really is hard to see for you, I get it.

First, understand that Denial is a lie, a lie to yourself. So, not only is she lying to you about almost everything, you are lying to yourself.

What is more, you should not have to move a pebble, not one. If she wants this marriage half as bad as you do, she would actually move the rocky mountains to fix it.

4.5 years, more than a quarter of your marriage, and you are willing to settle for what you have gotten so far????

Bless you brother...

[This message edited by BluesPower at 10:09 AM, May 21st (Thursday)]

Achilles,

Just as people are advising you not to project what you would like to see onto your wife where it may not be there, you also have to bear in mind that she spent four years living in a la-la land of her own creation.

It takes time for people to come out of that kind of self-induced stupor, which some people refer to as 'the fog'. For her to really start feeling what she did, she not only has to be out of that deluded state, but really own what she did. Given her need for validation and appreciation, I think she may have a hard time seeing who she really was for those four years.

Unfortunately, her shielding of herself from taking ownership is also preventing her from getting to the point where she can show you the kind of true emotions that you want - need? - to see. If she has the capacity to do that.

None of us knows what the dynamic was like in the rest of the marriage, before the affair. Was your wife demonstrative and giving, of her own volition, or would you say that you were more a giver in the relationship?

This affair is the strangest thing I have ever seen, if I have read it right. Pretty sure they didn't love each other. He very clearly used her and she equally allowed herself to be used. For whatever reason. I am trying to get to the bottom of that to discuss in counseling.

Understanding the 'whys' can become almost an obsession for a betrayed spouse, more often than not because they cannot imagine themselves ever doing something similar.

The person who really has to get to the bottom of it is your wife. The chances are that there are elements of narcissism and entitlement in her, coupled with a lifelong need for validation as a sex object.

You said you put a lot of effort into the relationship, thinking that if you just loved her enough, she would stop being so flirty with other men, and stop needing that validation from others. Is it possible that you gave her too much, too easily? And that in time she came to take it for granted - as something she was entitled to - and later still, something that lost its impact?

Years ago, I had a very enlightening discussion with a long-time girlfriend. We were talking about why women get so flattered by compliments from men, and she said she like to get compliments from other men. I said, "But I compliment you all the time". "Oh," she replied, "you're my boyfriend. You have to say those things. Another man doesn't have to, that's why them saying something complimentary matters more".

Can you see the mental machinery at work in that attitude? I was her boyfriend. I had to say nice things. Some other guy didn't have to say them, so him saying them was a big deal.

I am not going to spend time unpicking my ex-GF's ideas about what I was contractually obliged to say to her, or how devalued her statement made all the time and effort I put into being nice to her. I pass the story on because sometimes we can really struggle to understand a thought process that is so alien to our own that we may never really get a handle on it.

The point is, people can take us for granted, get complacent, start thinking that they don't have to make any effort and we are still going to be there, singing their praises, so where is the challenge for them?

If you look back through your thread, you will see that the times when you had the most impact on your wife post D-Day are those when you rattled her, and showed her that you were not guaranteed for life, that she was not just going to pat you on the head and ride off into retirement with you, and that she might well end up divorced and single in her fifties.

And if I had to offer you some advice, which a kind and giving guy like you may find hard to implement, it would be to stop giving so easily and make her earn any nice thing that you do, and understand that to receive, she also has to give.

In a recent post, you mentioned having a beat. From which I presume you were in law enforcement. There are several posters in this forum with a similar background, and because of their career, they are good at taking the middle ground, observing, and thinking.

That is what you must do, Achilles. I think all of us who have gone through this particular mill have had times where we want to project what we need onto a wayward spouse, but in the period after D-Day, neutrality and detached analysis are your best friends. Very hard to achieve in these circumstances, but definitely worth achieving.

This is a time for your wife to be making the effort and moving mountains, Achilles, because you have already done so much, for so long. It is down to your wife that she took it all for granted, and thought she was so fantastic that she was entitled to have two men in her life.

Let her know that having no men in her life is a distinct possibility, and that deluded fog is going to start clearing pretty quickly.

ok, bad week for me, apparently feeling sorry for myself. Accomplished nothing.

Stevesn,

Is she putting in the work to make me feel like more than AP? I don't know, because I am not sure what she put into him. I see she is trying. I'm not sure we are on the same page yet. She does the right things and says the right things, but I want to see it in her eyes.

BP,

I am not settling for anything, just saying I need to see it from her. I want more , need more and will get more.

M1965,

Yes she used to be very giving, very affectionate and caring. Something changed and she gave it elsewhere.

I had a very similar conversation with my wife. She dismissed my compliments with "you are just saying that because you love me" I did love her but that is not why I was complimenting her.

I don't think I gave her too much. I could just never give her enough to not need the validation from other men. Her own demon to confront.

I am a retired cop, good at my job. But I wasn't dealing with emotion, that is the problem.

At MC tonight, I talked about needing to know what allowed her to have the affair. I got a lot of problems in the marriage and when I said that was not what allowed you to have an affair, she said she was selfish. I told her I couldn't do selfish. That would allow her to do it again.

Anyway, not as stupid as I was but still learning

Were you feeling sorry for yourself, or were you feeling sad? There's a big difference between the 2.

Among other things, feeling sad is healing; feeling sorry for yourself isn't. But they're sometimes hard to tell apart.

I could just never give her enough to not need the validation from other men. Her own demon to confront.

Possibly 2 demons. You're right that your W needs to learn to validate herself and that a need for external validation will never be satisfied.

But what's this about thinking you could validate your W enough to fill her need? There will never be enough external validation to fill the hole in the person who needs it. The way to stop needing external validation is to learn to validate oneself. Period.

She dismissed my compliments with "you are just saying that because you love me" I did love her but that is not why I was complimenting her.

I spent the first several decades of my life with very low self-esteem. As a result, I discounted compliments, especially from loved ones. That self-hate dynamic may be operating in your W.

Learning to validate oneself goes along with learning to love oneself. That makes it easy to accept compliments.

I hope your W decides to heal. More than that i hope you keep posting and learning to heal yourself.

A hug, if you want one - (((achilles1101)))

[This message edited by sisoon at 11:59 AM, May 22nd (Friday)]

I don't know if I am feeling sorry for myself or just sad. I seem to be transitioning from anger to sadness and just assume that is the same as feeling sorry for yourself.

I guess I thought if I loved her enough, she wouldn't need anything else. A rather simplistic view I know, but how I felt. Didn't work out.

Due to her childhood abuse she suffers from low self esteem and the need to feel attractive to men. I think that what you said about self validation is what I am trying to explain to her is needed for her. I just don't say it well. She needs to get that fixed before we can R. I think that will take a long time if it happens.

Appreciate the support

Sooo, long conversation today following up from our MC.

I asked her again what allowed her to have an affair. I got the same answers about what was wrong with our marriage. I pressed and asked what allowed her to feel that it justified an affair and got the selfish answer. I again told her I can't accept that because that would allow it to happen again.

I pressed the issue and she said she didn't want to use it as an excuse because she thought she could control it but the abuse may have been a factor. She broke down and I think we are getting closer to the truth. I told her she needed to deal with it so she can heal and then maybe I can heal and deal with the marriage issues. I insisted on IC and she agreed. Maybe we are finally getting somewhere.

She thought she had dealt with the abuse issue and would not let it control her. She was successful for many years, but when things got tough, it reared it's ugly head. I'm not a psychiatrist but I think we are finally getting close to the root of the problem.

Still a lot of work to do and while no excuse per say, at least something to work on.

Don't know if I said or explained this right but here it is.

[This message edited by achilles1101 at 12:58 AM, May 23rd (Saturday)]

She definitely needs IC. Don’t let up on that. Make her find one next week. Perhaps she should research that this weekend. We’ve all suggested that here over the past few months and it would be great if she could get started with that.

As for that look on her face you are searching for, I believe it is compassion. I think you need to see signs that she cares how she has hurt you. And that she cares you are still in pain over it. Do you see, hear it feel anything from you that leads you to believe she has empathy for what damage and hurt she has caused you.

Can you say she cares? Can you say she cares that she still has to be in touch with the AP and bring up their interactions and how that makes you feel?

It’s the feeling that your WW is in your corner and wants to do everything they can to minimize the pain they have caused you and that they would do anything, ANYTHING, they can, even if it makes their own life more difficult, to help you heal.

I think that’s what you are looking for. Can you even feel a hint of it yet? If not, reconciliation is going to be nearly impossible.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 6:34 AM, May 23rd (Saturday)]

Hi Achilles,

I agree with stevesn about your wife's need for IC to explore the legacy of her abuse and hopefully give her insight about how to manage herself better.

Some problematic behaviours can be so hard-wired into a person that for them they seem normal or instinctive. A good therapist can help your wife identify the thought processes and behaviours that make things worse, both for her, and for those around her.

I think that you are taking a good, pragmatic approach to this. It can be difficult not to lead people in discussions so that they learn which answers we want to hear, but I am sure your training and experience in law enforcement will help you avoid doing that.

It could be productive to ask your wife why, as you are now in MC, she chose to have an affair rather than suggesting MC when she identified the problems in the marriage that she says contributed to her decision to have an affair.

A sub-strand of that, of course, is the timing of her identification of those problems. Had she actually identified them before she began her affair, at a time when MC could have been an option, or did she - as many waywards do - only identify problems after she began her affair, as a way to justify it?

I believe that is worth pursuing, because she needs to understand whether there really were problems prior to the affair, or if she invented them as part of her cheating 'process'.

If your wife had not mentioned any marital problems prior to her affair, they may not have been there. How many marriages are perfect?

The real problem may have been that her need for external validation made her a ticking time bomb, waiting for an opportunist like her affair partner to come along and pursue her.

It sounds like your approach is helping your wife understand that it was her choices and her decision-making that led to the affair. She had a whole range of other options, but she chose to have an affair.

Having raised the issue of timing and supposed problems within the marriage, this...

Yes she used to be very giving, very affectionate and caring. Something changed and she gave it elsewhere.

...makes me wonder if her change in commitment and effort coincided with the arrival of her affair partner on her radar. The affair may have been four or four and a half years, but he may have been a factor in her neglect of the marriage - and the deterioration of its quality - for longer than that if she was becoming emotionally interested/invested in him.

Your wife claims not to have 'loved' her affair partner, but the term 'emotional affair' covers a lot more ground that just love. It seems obvious that even if love was not the emotional driver of the affair, your wife's emotional need for validation certainly was, so any claims that 'it was just sex' are missing the point.

The sex was most likely the main driver for her affair partner, but for your wife it was the proof of what she wanted, which was the emotional reward of feeling sexually desirable. So even without love, it was an emotional affair for your wife.

The reason I am laboring that point is that your wife needs to recognize that her need for validation is something negative that she needs to fight, rather than letting it control her. It was that need, combined with her lack of boundaries, that caused the affair, not any supposed problems within the marriage.

I think you are being very wise to make her investigation and fixing of that vulnerability an essential prerequisite before you will consider reconciliation. In fact, as much as your heart might hope for reconciliation (many of us have been there), it is best to focus your wife on the project of fixing herself rather than expending energy on fixing the marriage.

On that score, I think it is very good that you are not letting your wife get away with lazy cookie-cutter excuses like marital problems or "I'm just selfish". Those are shallow, and if you bought into them it would prevent her from having to dig down to the real problems.

Although nothing is guaranteed, you are providing your wife with an opportunity to help herself, and I hope that she makes the most of that opportunity. If she does, she may end up as a realistic prospect for reconciliation. It is up to her. As the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink.

You are a good man, Achilles, and I think you are doing a good job in a tough situation.