SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I to dislike the impossible math. I also agree that new variables are entered into the M equation post dday making objective retrospection really difficult.

When I talk of my M these days I refer to is as MY M. I ask my W how is YOUR M. The reason. There is no M. We both have agree to do it but it is just made up like advertising spots. We both have our own and then we talk about how we are doing with them. Its that talking, sharing and communication that matters. Everything else is just assumptions based on our own perspective.

take care...

[This message edited by wert at 8:47 AM, September 11th (Wednesday)]

I hadn't thought of it that way before wert, that's pretty awesome.

[This message edited by StillGoing at 8:51 AM, September 11th (Wednesday)]

I agree with 7yrsflushed. It also has a different meanings for me at different times. When I have used that analogy with someone here it was because they were trying to blame themselves or how they were in the marriage for their spouse cheating. I was not referring to the fact that they were only 50% responsible for their marriage or themselves. I will try to be more aware in the future that some people may take this literally however.

I also think that a BS or WS are not always 50% at fault for how their marriage is pre-A. There are alot of instances where it is not 50/50.

We are all 100% responsible for ourselves however in what we put up with in the marriage or how we react to our spouse and their needs.

My WH started his A during a time of crisis with health problems I was having. He could not cope with having a wife that was not 100% healthy and there for him and his needs. Is that 50% my fault? Of course it wasn't, but it was 50% my fault that we did not discuss it like we should have at the time it was happening. I thought he should have been more sympathetic and caring, he thought that I didn't love him during that time because I was not being my usual energetic self and initiating sex like I had in the past. That was just an example of how we should have had better communication with each other on how we both were feeling. We were both feeling negelected in different ways. Was he being selfish? Yes, in my opinion he was, but I wasn't looking or communicating how I was feeling or how he might be feeling negelected.

Wert, that is a good way to look at it.

I think all the views above are correct in the aggregate. 50/50 is to me shorthand for shared responsibility for the relationship, with each person having 100% of their role.

We all learn something about ourselves and the M after dday.

In terms of the M history, I was more neglectful and selfish and consciously ignored her needs often stated. I was also in denial. My issues.

but what I have now discovered is the 'why' behind my behavior. Partly my own FOO stuff. But a big part of it was what seems to be an attachment disorder that my WW has. She kind of had one foot out of the door from the time we got engaged. So I suffered a LOT in the M due to her unconscious behavior and I can now look at my actions as reactions. With such understanding, I can forgive myself and have been actively working on...ME. No more bad reactions, no more denial, better communication, etc. And guess what? WW might just fix herself in such an environment. We will see.

I think this becomes tricky for many of the reasons that some very wise people have listed here. I feel like flushing out (Pre-A) marital issues starts to become tricky, because the WS has become (to crib a phrase from WAL), an unreliable narrator.

I would imagine that in healthy marriages, when your spouse tells you that they're unhappy with something you're doing, you assess how valid the complaint is and then make some attempt to affect some changes. After an A, any suggestions or thoughts that the WS has on any kind of marital issue (aka some shit *I* need to work on) gets seen with suspicious eyes, KWIM?

It's a simplistic formula, but when I was a "newby" to this Board, it helped me so much. The 100% part especially. At the time, I was more than willing to accept 50% responsibility. Now, I have to agree that the 50% can ebb and flow, or that one spouse was never in for their full 50. Lots of permutations of the 50%.

After an A, any suggestions or thoughts that the WS has on any kind of marital issue (aka some shit *I* need to work on) gets seen with suspicious eyes, KWIM?

That is spot on, but....

It's the BS's job to figure that shit out and clear their filter regarding how they view their partner. It sucks and it hard but that baseball after the A if you want to be healthy and have the relationship healthy.

I do think the BS's responsibility to to make themselves healthy and view the world as it is now is a key element in R (and I mean R as recovery for my betrayed ass.) If a WS feels like shit about being so hosed up, works towards fixing that and demonstrates that through actions toward the BS, the BS needs to not work through the A filter. It that delicious sandwich we all get to eat. You know the, "I got screwed but hey I will give you another even handed roll of the dice."

The only way I can reconcile that so far with myself is that I am full of understanding, I rock the house and am dropping grace on people. Bam! You know, "take that shit you unfair life."

Thinking people need to rationalize our existence somehow right?

Take care...

wert-

I totally agree. Once you decide to R, at some point you have to make a good-faith effort to start giving the WS the benefit of the doubt again. I think I was referring more to pre-A 'marriage issues' as brought up by the WS.

I rock the house and am dropping grace on people. Bam! You know, "take that shit you unfair life."

I love this. ^^^

I am just really sensitive to this topic because of my own circumstance.

*I* was the one that bought the relationship books and implemented the suggested strategies, *I* was the one that went to IC, *I* was the one that booked MC appointments. I even took AD's for a while because *I* was depressed. What was stbx doing during all of this time? Going to strip clubs and cheating on me constantly while reveling in the fact that I was *bettering* myself in order to meet *his* needs.

I did the same thing, except I have to change your *his* needs to: "I was bettering myself to meet *our* needs as a partnership and a family. I felt that my PPD and anxiety needed some help and it would therefore benefit us together. As a matter of fact, if his story is correct, I began working on myself *before* he dove head first into acting out. Books, joined a gym, IC, ADs, etc. Now, again speaking ONLY from my case, these things were-according to him-partially what CAUSED him to act out. My trying to improve myself and, in turn, our marriage were some of the many *justifications* for his sh***y behavior. "Why does ToG get to work to make herself a better person?" Again, his words, not mine.

Look, I was repeatedly told for 2 months and 13 days after D-day that his AMing, C/Ling, PAs, EAs, etc. were a direct result of me and my role in the marriage. I was told and retold that he had never done this to anyone before and that I had caused all of it. After 2 months and 13 days (including his first IC who told him that I(ToG) was 100% at fault for his A and that the BS ALWAYS is)I learned that not only has he done this to every single person he has ever "cared" about-including his first wife-but that the sneaking around/lying/pulling one off on those who cared most about him was what really 'got him off.' For over 2 decades before I met him plus the 1 decade that I was married to him, this is just who he was due to his FOO. He enjoyed it. He thought he was a secret freaking agent and he thought he was the best there was.

I'm not perfect, not even close. I had a lot to work on and I have a lot to work on. But, I was a damn good wife and mother. I DID try to work on myself. And, he punished me for it (I, of course didn't even know this till years later).

Maybe all of this is quantifiable. But, there's no way to determine the numbers. There is no way to know the actual results from an epistemic angle. I think that, in my case, his and his first IC's blaming me for his utterly despicable "issues" relating to the marriage AND to his behavior in general, set me back years in my healing and certainly set us back if this marriage can even be salvaged at all.

I get both sides of this. I do. But, once again, every case is different enough to where it may not really be helpful to quantify it when we can't actually get truly accurate results.

because the WS has become (to crib a phrase from WAL), an unreliable narrator.

While this is so true I believe "unreliable narratives" are a universal condition when it comes to relationships.

Separating the message from the messenger is helpful if you want to data mine for a personal growth project.

At my job we give 360 degree reviews. I review my boss, my staff reviews me and I review them at review time. If I see feedback from a source I may not find very "reliable" in particular areas I look at it just as closely. Yeah, these are annonymous but you don't have to be psychic to recognize writing styles.

I have found some of the best observations are from those not a fan for whatever reason. Yeah, they may be skewed (as are the ones from devoted followers) but they do have truth in there and that's my treasure.

My ex has a very interesting relationship with the truth. The truth he tells is spot on. The lies he doesn't are beyond fucked. His complaints of me are valid and founded. A detached spouse is brutal. Was I from the beginning? I don't honestly know. I can't rely on my narrative any more than his. My decision to disconnect may have been reaction to a real threat or pre-emptive which changes everything.

Sadly, my choice to remain in the relationship further convolutes the picture. It becomes far less clear when "you" can list the atrocities yet you return voluntarily home every time you venture out.

I'm not talking about those that are "biding time" until a better financial picture can emerge and have clearly decided. That wasn't me. Don't know if I wanted to exact my pound or was honestly hopeful in some way. That too is a narrative I can't trust myself with.

Earlier someone wrote:

When dealing with the A the M issues really shouldn't be part of that discussion

Can someone give some specific suggestion for how to do this? If you aren't talking about the M... then how can you talk about the A?

Thanks.

Earlier someone wrote:

When dealing with the A the M issues really shouldn't be part of that discussion

Can someone give some specific suggestion for how to do this? If you aren't talking about the M... then how can you talk about the A?

rbf - many times when a BS & WS begin discussing the A and get to the why of the WS for having the A, the list of needs, demands, disappointments, you name it, start being thrown at the BS from the WS as to why they had an A. These are excuses and the WS attempt to somehow justify their actions. They are not the real why. This is when the conversation of fault usually starts. I am of the opinion that at that point in time, it is sometimes not good for the BS to negotiate and try to say the WS is 100% responsible for the A but the other marriage issues are 50/50. It is important for the WS to own their shit, all of it, no excuses. Don't give them an excape clause, they have to own up to what they did.

The way I did this when I got the list, I said I would be willing to listen to her needs in the M that she would like met but I will not have that conversation when we are discussing the A. That A is her responsibility 100% and no way was I going to allow any attempts to justify it on any needs she felt were not being met.

M issues. Thats a tangled knot.

M issues are oft cited by WSs and used as a excuse for their LTA. Its pretty common. Are those issues valid? Mostly YES. Are those issues often overblown? Also YES.

Addressing these issues can be tricky. For a long time I corresponded with a WS I met here at SI. She was in a head long rush to deal with the M issues that in her view were the cause of her LTA. Her issues were valid but her timing of when to deal with them was bad. She wanted to rush through dealing with her LTA and get to the M issues. But her husband having his universe crushed was in no way ready to deal with what she was pushing for.

One thing to look at is on those *pre-LTA M issues* how many were overblown or possibly even created to justify the LTA? Everyone has faults. None of us are perfect partners in our M. We have all done things that hurt our partner. Mostly these things are done out of ignorance but sometimes we do them even when we know that our partner will be hurt by our actions. To leverage these issues as justification for a affair is just wrong in my view.

Certainly many of us BSs can point to issues that we could use as justification for cheating. I know I could and so I suppose others can. Many people are desperately unhappy in their marriages but still remain faithful. The POV of the woman I was corresponding with was that these people simply were not unhappy enough to cheat that there was a threshold beyond which cheating was somehow inevitable. I did not agree and we remained deadlocked on that issue.

I believe that having a LTA is a choice. Its a decision. And we can justify a decision in allot of ways many of which are just excuses we use to give our self permission to do what we want to do.

Going out on a limb here and I am sure I will be shot at. But I think that that choice has be be looked at closely before M issues can be resolved. Examining that choice might shed light on which M issues were real or fabricated and which were overblown. My view is that the choice is what is the most important thing. After that we can look at improving the M. Just my opinion tho.

This:

However after the initial trauma is over, for me at least, it became more about personal responsibility and taking inventory of what things each of us did or did not do in the M. At this point for me it becomes, WS work through your shit and BS work through your shit.

Is part of understanding what I meant to support what RB said:

When dealing with the A the M issues really shouldn't be part of that discussion.

Also, I said:

When we talk about 50/50 it has nothing to do with the A. It has everything to do with the M and each other's part in it.

50/50 is a percentage of ownership in M not fault.

The A is a separate subject. Reason being is that a WS will cheat no matter who their spouse is because they themselves have their own personal issues. I know this because my FWH has been in denial about his issues since before he met me and been cheating since we were dating when he barely knew me or have a relationship with me.

When you talk about M, that's when we brought up issues or baggage we're bringing into the marriage or unrealistic expectations or fairy tales we're bringing into the marriage. For example, my FWH truly believes there's a problem in marriage if H and W are having arguments while I believe arguments if done right can flush out issues and is not a big deal. When I tell my FWH to get over his depression, that doesn't help or if I keep hounding him for us to talk when he's not ready just because I am. Those are M problems REGARDLESS of A.

We're now in R for 5 years now and my fWH has figured out what his problems are with why he did A. I learned to swallow my pride and admit I could be more supportive of his mental issues and learn how to handle it calmly instead of frustratingly.

I am in the belief that the A flushes out a lot of issues in M sometimes and no matter how small the issues you think may be, as people, we are better people to LEARN from our mistakes. Just as people continue to have A's no matter who they are married to, there are just as many people who keep getting divorced even without A's because they don't want to take responsibility for the 50% part of their M.

Just because you think you're a good W or H doesn't mean you ARE a good W or H FOR THAT PARTICULAR PERSON you are married to. THERE IS NO FORMULA for a each individual couples. I think if you read Love Languages that is pretty much what I got out of that. I can give my husband all the quality time in the world but if he wants words of affirmation, then he's not getting the love HE NEEDS. Basically we need to be a good W or H by GIVING our spouse the love THEY need and vice versa, not the love we need.

I hope that makes more sense. None of us are experts, we just do what works for us. I agree that the 50/50 shouldn't come up until later and not when you've just had your DDay.

---

edit: gave credit to RB for the quote, I expanded on it in a later post after his.

[This message edited by Simple at 12:40 PM, September 11th (Wednesday)]

Earlier someone wrote:

When dealing with the A the M issues really shouldn't be part of that discussion

Can someone give some specific suggestion for how to do this? If you aren't talking about the M... then how can you talk about the A?

That was me. To be honest I don't know how you do this. I think it is highly subjective based on your unique relationship circumstances. But I will do my best to elaborate on what I meant.

Disclaimer:

I am no expert on this by any means so take what I write with a grain of salt so to speak. This is what I have gathered from my own experience and from what I have seen here on SI.

Here goes nothing ...

The M had issues before the A. And now the M has those same issues along with the A. The M issues could have been dealt with in other ways. Such as D, IC, MC, reading books, etc. Instead the WS abandon the M and chose to have an A. Why did he/she make that choice? What in their mind made it OK, or an option for them? If the BS was in on the choice to cheat then sure, you could bring the M into that decision. But the choice to have an A is a unilateral one on the part of the WS.

In the end, each person affected by the A betrayel has to do their own work to heal from that. In relation to the M, yes it is affected and has relavance to the A afterward. But to have the M issues used as a reason for the A prior is bogus and reflective of a WS in denial of the real "reasons" they CHOSE to do what they did. And those reasons are very personal, hidden in a vault within the WS's mental and emotional dark corners. They have to be willing to own the fact that their choice was a personal one. If they do that, then when the A comes up it won't move to the M issues because the WS owns it. That person knows it was their choice, and regardless of the M issues, they accept responsibility for it. I believe once that is the case the M issues can be looked at objectively and with some clarity, not getting muddied by resentment and pain of the A.

Thats my perspective on it as a BS and I appreciate any insight anyone has regarding it.

[This message edited by RyeBread at 12:35 PM, September 11th (Wednesday)]

I agree that the A is a completely different subject from the M.

A WS who blames the M for their A is full of shit, IMHO, because as so many here have stated (and I firmly agree with them), the BS might have had plenty of their own complaints about the M but didn't cheat.

The M isn't to blame for the WS cheating. The WS using an A as a means to cope with issues in the M is wrong, and the WS is fully to blame there. That's not to say that a WS might not have valid pre-A gripes about the M. As has also been often said, not every BS is a perfect saint. (Not speaking about anyone in particular here.) But again, choosing to cheat because of marital problems is always the wrong choice.

I do think there has to be shared responsibility (I'm leery of putting a percentage on it) by each spouse to have a good M. Otherwise, it's not a marital relationship beyond the legal sense of the word---it's two people who are married by law, but who are in their own world, looking out for their own interests and to hell with the joint venture of the M.

It's hard to quantify though. One person could be putting in their 100% and yet the other spouse still sees a problem. Does this mean they're just a "taker" and will never be satisfied? Possibly. It could also mean that it's just a mismatch between personalities.

When dealing with the A the M issues really shouldn't be part of that discussion

I think this is dependent on individual circumstances. There was no way in hell I was going to even consider attempting R just to go back to the way things were before Dday.

I believe once that is the case the M issues can be looked at objectively and with some clarity, not getting muddied by resentment and pain of the A

and thus the crux, especially if the major problem in the marriage, pre DDay, is conflict avoidance. Hell, my husband can chew with his mouth open all day long now. I'd gladly take that instead of his affairs. However, it's the avoidance that's the issue, not whatever problem we had.

I think this is dependent on individual circumstances. There was no way in hell I was going to even consider attempting R just to go back to the way things were before Dday.

And I think this is where the whole statement came from originally.

For those who want to do the work of R, it requires much more than just processing the A. At what point does the A stop being a trump card for all disputes? When is it appropriate to be looking at other issues in the marriage. These questions have been raised a lot here over the years.

I think the reason this statement is so controversial is that it started out as discussion of a very valid point, and devolved into a poorly phrased mindless platitude.

Often this platitude is stated as an obligatory preamble when someone is posting about struggles with non A issues, or had been dealing with non A issues and then an A issue comes up out of the woodwork. In many ways, it is comparable to the WS forums obligatory preamble of "I know nothing excuses... but" when they are posting about non A issues and wondering how to deal with them when all the focus is on the A. Most often I kinda zone out until I get to the actual post. I get it, you did things in the past you are not proud of, I can't change that, so what's up now, I'll see if I can help.

At what point does the A stop being a trump card for all disputes?

Excellent point. The point at which the BS doesn't play it and the WS can forgive themselves...Because in our R, both of play the trump card in different ways...

take care...