SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

No I haven't seen the video, but oddly enough the "DeadGF" told me what video he took at that Halloween party. I feel certain that's what's on the VHS tape. I don't really have to see the tape to know he's lying about serious things.

He's crying all the time. He's also carrying around his wallet, keys, and phone, even into the bathroom. He feels THAT insecure here in this house, with me, that he can't trust enough to set those things down?

This morning he's crying and says it's all his fault, then he says he'd never do anything to put me in danger health-wise, that the calls were just a fantasy. When I try to explain why I went looking for, and called, the Dead GF, he says I'm "attacking" him.

I asked if he'd go to a MC and he said not right now, but I made an appt for Sunday and I'm going to do everything I can to get him to go.

I printed out some articles from a website marriagebuilders.com - the parts about Radical Honesty. He started reading it last night, so this morning I asked what he thought of it? He said "it says not to attack your spouse". Oh geez. I told him my intent was not to attack him, but to explain and tell what I know.

I had 2 good friends over yesterday afternoon, the woman is really good at human psychology. She immediately recognized how he turns things around to put the blame on me, to manipulate. I think by snooping for that DeadGF info, that was the AH-HA! SHE DID SOMETHING BAD, so that becomes his focus - it has given him a way to turn the spotlight on me instead of him. I feel like everything I say and do has to be perfect otherwise he uses it against me, and unfortunately I can't be perfect.

I've noticed something about him, he can do 5 really bad things, but if I do just ONE bad thing that trumps his 5 bad things. He jumps on every thing I do, but when I point out what he did, or how it affected what I did, I'm "attacking" him.

He thinks I keep "throwing things" at him when I approach any of the relevant topics. I've explained that I have to mention things, explain things, talk about things, and my intent is not to throw it at him, my intent to get us to a point of healing (if possible). He just wants to move on and forget the past. Of course he does.

At any rate, I found a MC that will see us on Sunday, so I'm willing to try that and see what happens. It's so hard to get an appt with these therapists, so when this one said he had a Sunday opening, I took it.

Honey, he thinks you're "attacking him" because he has very carefully compartmentalized his behaviors into "husband" and "secret" modes. He, just like my exH, feels that "as long as nobody ever finds out, this is OK". Honestly - that is what my exH said on D-Day: "well, I had hoped that you would never have found out."

Well, DUUUUUUUUUUHHH. Wouldn't that be convenient for you? Lead your double life and as long as no one is the wiser, you get to have your cake and eat it too?

I'd advise you to see that counselor on Sunday, with or without your H. If he refuses to go, well then, at least you know he isn't interested or ready to confront his own demons. But, that shouldn't stop YOU from doing what you need to do FOR YOU.

Still, he continues with these secretive behaviors. Carrying his keys, wallet, phone, etc. around with him is SCREAMING that he has more to hide. MUCH MORE.

WIS, repairing a marriage or relationship from betrayal is hard. DAMN HARD. But, it is IMPOSSIBLE when only one person is trying to row the boat. Think about that - when one person rows a boat, what happens?

You go in circles.

Think about that.

I agree. Your husband is scared you are going to find out more and he wants to you STOP looking. To get you to STOP looking, he is going to turn it all around on you.

He is manipulating you to drop it. You've started to recognize this is a pattern for him. This is who he is, its how he controls you.

When you confronted him the other day about the dead gf, he cleaned out his nightstand. Now he carries his wallet, his keys and his phone around with him so you can't look in them. It isn't because he doesn't trust you, its because you don't trust him anymore.

Do you have access to the cell phone bill? Might want to keep up to date on that.

Whether you snooped or didn't snoop (who cares, you are married!) doesn't change the fact that he was seeking out trannies to have sex with. So you figured it out and that makes you that bad guy here? He was cheating.

You bet he doesn't want to go to marriage counseling, he would have to admit lies to agree to go. No way he is doing that.

Marriage counseling won't matter at this point anyway. He needs individual counseling. Cancel the marriage counselor and find yourself an IC so you can start the process of gaining strength to realize that you are worth more than being lied to, manipulated and tricked.

The darnedest thing just happened. I think I just got hoodwinked but I'm not sure. My H came home for lunch but instead of eating lunch, we talked. He's tired of the pain and so am I. He was crying and saying how he missed our life together and he can't take the pain anymore. I mentioned how much he likes history - WWII, etc - and you have to study history to avoid repeating it. He says he's learned his lessons, and paid a HUGE price for those lessons. He went on about how much he's learned and how he will NEVER make those mistakes again and he will do anything and everything to make me happy and for us to heal.

Is it possible he is sincere?

However, this strikes me weird: today he also told me (out of the blue during all this talk) the only time he actually saw a prostitute was after his divorce, his lawyer told him he "needed to get laid" and would "feel better if he did" and suggested he see one. He said he did, met up with her, but told her he needed someone to talk to, so all they did was talk, and she charged him 1/2 price.

RED FLAG??

Now, this tells me a few things.

1. he's willing to call/see prostitutes, even if it was for talking only, and even if it was 20 years ago

2. that lawyer sucked - who would suggest such a thing? I guess guys do, but it's weird

3. it's interesting he'd tell me this story NOW - is it calculated or just a memory that popped in his mind right then?

4. my Spidey sense tells me this is BS - when he said it, it simply did not ring true to me. For one thing I've seen lovecards and photos of women he was seeing around the time of his divorce, he didn't need a hooker to get laid.

5. MOST IMPORTANTLY: he's trying to show me that he can contact a hooker WITHOUT having sex with them (like now with the calls)

He's not said anything else about the DeadGF.

He showed me a real estate postcard advertising a cheap house he thought he could afford, and that upset me. He's planning his new life? He doesn't want to work on this life here with me? Did he plan to show this card to me, knowing I'd be upset by it?

Is he that capable of scheming such things? He's not a smart guy in some ways, so I wonder. In all this he never "schemed" - he just did what he wanted to do selfishly, not a lot of planning it seems, his mind isn't complex enough I don't think, to scheme. Or is it?

If he schemed all this, I'm impressed.

For some reason - I'm weary - I blurt out: what if we started fresh, BUT with a set of rules we MUST abide by, that we would write them out on paper and sign it. If any rule is broken, we refer to the Rules we signed. We must be transparent, we must be radically honest about everything. We must be willing to do WHATEVER it takes to make things HEALTHY. He agreed.

So then he holds me and starts kissing me - very passionately with tongue. 10 minutes earlier he was SO SO SO upset and crying, and now he's happily kissing me and says let's go to a romantic dinner tonight, let's go on a date tonight. That seemed weird to me too, but part of me says, why are you dissing nice-ness? Well, the other part of me says: because it seems he snapped from Upset/In Pain/Crying to Happy/Relieved/Passionate Kissing mode pretty quickly.

I said ok, then he left to go back to work, and I'm sitting here wondering what just happened and how I feel about it.

A rug sweep? Or what would the term be for this be? It's not totally sweeping it under the rug, there has to be Rules and honesty. IF - please note the word IF - I agree to this, I swear one more "strike" and I'm truly done, he's out the door and I'm single again. Problem, he'll be more careful to hide his tracks so I could never find out, but I'm extremely smart and a capable investigator, but now he knows more too. So, trust is a huge issue and I'm extremely unsettled about this.

I want him to show me everything inside his car. I want the stuff back in the nightstand. I want to be able to look at anything I want of his. Those are some of the stipulations.

I guess I just want so badly to get back to living a normal daily life. I'm eager to make our relationship BETTER and HEALTHY, it would have to be better because the way it was before is what caused this whole mess to begin with. He said he knows he ruined things, etc. and was so so sorry.

Isn't there ever a time when they are sincere? I mean, he DOES love me, he did marry me, so it's not like he dislikes me and is just pretending all this.

Am I being stupid? Gullible? Manipulated? Yes, I have a feeling I am, but can't I give him one chance to change things? Just one?

PS: one other thing that struck me during our lunch time talk. He referred to himself as a narcissist. He said "you know me I'm too much of a narcissist to..." I forget the rest of the sentence, once he said narcissist I jumped inside.

Hello WIS, I think #5 on your list is definitely the thing that jumps out at me. He is trying to get you to believe his story by using a different tactic. If he saw a hooker in the past and "nothing happened," then that makes his current story more plausible, correct?

You certainly could go on the date, go back to "normal" and keep secretly investigating. Let him get all comfortable and convinced things have been smoothed over and neatly swept under the rug. You may be able to catch him more easily that way, but really....he seems to be the type of person who will never EVER admit to doing something wrong, he will never EVER come clean. What good is it to write a list of rules if you are the only one who follows them? If you find out that he has broken a rule, what if he just refuses to admit to it? Then you are back in the same place as you are now.

His refusal to admit wrongdoing is the issue here, and I think I would implement the 180 on him and look ahead to your own future.

He showed me a real estate postcard advertising a cheap house he thought he could afford, and that upset me.

Gently, I think this was a tactical error on your part. It seems that he is testing the waters to see how much he still has you hooked, and if you can still be reeled in. And you took the bait. Perhaps you could bring up the real estate postcard again and say you had thought about it and perhaps it is a good idea after all? See what he does?

I know you don't want to D, but really, at this point, he does not seem like a candidate for R. Honesty for a compulsive liar is extremely difficult, if not impossible. I am so sorry. Take care.

E.

Oh honey, I want to give you big hugs.

My H came home for lunch but instead of eating lunch, we talked. He's tired of the pain and so am I. He was crying and saying how he missed our life together and he can't take the pain anymore. I mentioned how much he likes history - WWII, etc - and you have to study history to avoid repeating it. He says he's learned his lessons, and paid a HUGE price for those lessons. He went on about how much he's learned and how he will NEVER make those mistakes again and he will do anything and everything to make me happy and for us to heal.

What huge price has he paid? What is he missing, having you oblivious to his lying, cheating ways?

He is turning this all around. Why is HE hurt? He is the one making the calls, lying the lies, etc.

HE HAS ALWAYS LIED TO YOU. Your entire relationship. Who lies about a dead child and a dead gf unless they want to manipulate someone? Your husband is still manipulating you with the cheap rental house. He knew you wouldn't want him to go, he knew you would do this:

I blurt out: what if we started fresh, BUT with a set of rules we MUST abide by, that we would write them out on paper and sign it. If any rule is broken, we refer to the Rules we signed. We must be transparent, we must be radically honest about everything. We must be willing to do WHATEVER it takes to make things HEALTHY. He agreed.

You changed the boundaries and he gets to continue his life the way he has enjoyed it previously. I'll bet anytime you bring it up in the future he gets angry at you and tells you how much it hurts him that you don't trust him. Or that's all in the past, he thought you made a promise to him to get over it.

Your husband doesn't want to go to marriage counseling. He doesn't want to admit anything he has done. He just wants you to forget.

You are doing everything here. Making nice. Making marriage counseling appointments. Ordering books. Reading websites. You are doing whatever it takes to save your marriage.

What steps has your husband taken to prove to you that he is doing everything in his power to save your marriage? Oh, right. He came home at lunch and cried about how hurt he is.

I don't mean this in a sarcastic or nasty way I mean it as an outside observation. Your WH has you trained very well. He's got you trained to jump over his hurdles, wearing his backpack of dysfunction, whenever you start asking for anything that is healthy for you boundaries, truth, honesty, and so on. He is running with you in full pursuit of him, knowing that as long as he keeps just close enough, you'll keep running after him.

This has to stop. It's unhealthy for you and its death for any honest relationship that you want to have. The person who cares the most, has the most to lose. And right now, that person is you.

Your WH, is not the victim here, no matter how much he beats his breast and proclaims how very fragile and downtrodden he is. He is like a toddler, throwing a tantrum to get his way. He wants what he wants, and to hell with what anyone else wants. As long as you allow him to keep getting his way with his mantrums, then he's going to keep using them and escalating them. You've already seen this in action, if you will mentally take a step back and look only at his actions. You need to throw a bucket of cold water over his threshing, wining, hold-my-breath-until-I-turn-blue, I'm so out of control body.

At a minimum, step back. Detach. Re-read the 180 in The Healing Library, and implement it. See the councilor by yourself and seek your own understanding of what you deserve and need from a marriage, then set your boundaries, and leave him free to choose to either do the work or not. You are the only person that you can control, so work on that. Your WH has to make the decision that he wants to be married enough to change himself you can't do that for him. And by running after him and allowing him to obscure the fact that he is a liar and a cheat, you encourage him to lie and cheat. Look. You know what you know. It doesn't matter what he says ... you know what you know and he knows you know it too. You don't have to "prove" anything. You may not be able to produce physical evidence that your toxic neighbor keyed your car, but you know what you know and they know it too. So go with your knowledge and act upon that. Your WH can ether man up, do the work, and become a remorseful, open spouse, or cut him free to take his lies elsewhere so that YOU can seek a healthy life. (((hugs)))

WIS,

brokenblackbird and skan NAILED IT. Please read both of their posts again and again. This "coming home to talk" is nothing more than rugsweeping. That's ALL he wants - for you to just forget this and go back to the way things used to be.

But, the sad truth is that things will NEVER be like they used to be. You've learned too much. You've learned that he is a compulsive liar that will stop at NOTHING to get you to believe those lies. You've learned that he is a master manipulator with an unhealthy dose of Narcissist thrown in.

WIS, you can't police him into bringing your former life back. Honestly, is that how you want to live? Dr. Phil always says "you can't change what you don't acknowledge." As long as he refuses to be honest with you and BY HIS ACTIONS, shows that he really wants to do the hard work to change, all you are buying with your "contract" is a piece of paper.

He doesn't want to change. Both of you just want things to go back to how they used to be. Honey, that WILL. NOT. HAPPEN. You cannot unring the bell. You know, what you know, and writing "don't do that anymore" and having him sign it is not the way to bring about lasting change and build a stronger relationship. The future relationship has to be built on TRUST, HONESTY, and TRANSPARENCY.

You're getting none of those things from your H.

Please re-read the posts from brokenblackbird and skan. Please.

Huge hugs....

[This message edited by Too_Trusting at 11:31 AM, April 26th (Sunday)]

Womaninshock, bumping to see how you are?

I am Very Sorry you had to go through this , you Never did Anything to deserve this ! Mine cheated on me I tried to give her one more chance because we have a Daughter but she was stupid enough to go out and do it again ! I was VERY LUCKY with her cheating I'll tell you later if you're curious . BUT KNOW THIS ! STOP SLEEPING WITH HIM - STD'S WITH TS PEOPLE COULD BE DEADLY , so please get rid of him and be there for your Children Healthy and free of anything that cannot be cured . He comes in contact to spread std's even if he wears condoms , they give him oral sex and that right there can be brought Home to YOU!!!

You have to think with your head and not feel with your heart if you want to avoid a possible death sentence from aids . Next time he falls on the floor for hours fill up your mop bucket with water and toss it on him , he'll stop acting so stupid and get real for once . The bucket of water will work trust me . I wish you luck , but no more sex with him , DIVORCE . It's time . You cannot take a chance with your Health any longer.

I wish you luck .Stay in touch .

Womaninshock,

I hope my post wasn't too harsh. Having been through the h#ll of discovering the man I married was a figment of my imagination, I really do want to help you. I hope you'll check back in and let us help you through this.

I didn't do the printed Agreement yet. I know that's a weird thing to do, but my H is weird and I thought that would get through to him if it was on paper and he could read it.

I appreciate all of your help. You've all been there, you know the ropes, you know the situation, you know cheaters. You are giving me the right advice and support. It's what I need to hear.

All I have to do now is tell him I'm "sad" and it turns into a marathon of difficulty with him.

Two months into this and I feel like it's still sinking in. I'm reading your replies over and over. I read them when I feel lost and confused, which is almost all the time.

I just realized - from some great posts here on this site - that I am so totally co-dependent.

I feel like I can't live without my H, even though I know it's ridiculous and I get very (VERY) little out of the relationship and very little good out of him, and even less out of him now that all this has happened in the last 2 months.

I don't respect him. I'm not turned on by him. I believe he has serious mental illness. I don't think he's very intelligent.

So what am I doing still with him?? What's in it for me that I feel so strongly that I need to keep?

He spent the whole day Sunday "depressed" because I said I was sad and felt we couldn't talk openly. I've had numerous good friends, a therapist (even though they aren't supposed to tell their patients what to do ), and the very kind and gracious people here on this forum, tell me "what are you doing with him???".

I know what I need to do - get him out of my life - and I don't know how to do it. I'm scared.

I feel sorry for him. I feel compelled to help him. WHY???

I have to admit I'm really scared. I'm scared of him. I'm scared of being alone. I'm scared of his reactions to the truth I tell him or make him deal with. He's not violent, so it's not that, but still I'm scared.

I feel like I should have made him leave as soon as I found all the escort calls. That is enough to justify ending it. By not putting my foot down, I look weak. I look wishy-washy.

I mean IF CALLING TRANSSEXUAL ESCORTS 35+ TIMES OVER 5 MONTHS AND LYING TO ME ABOUT SERIOUS ISSUES INCLUDING LYING ABOUT A GF BEING DEAD FROM CANCER AND LYING ABOUT A SON DYING AND NOT TELLING ME HE HAS "BUMPS" ON HIS PENIS BEFORE HAVING SEX WITH ME ISN'T ENOUGH TO GET A GUY KICKED OUT, WHAT IS???

I know I know I know. This is crazy on my part!

I've taught him he can do whatever he wants and the consequences will be basically nothing. Oh sure, tons of yelling and crying but he's still here. So I've "allowed" him to do what he did to me. He's still here.

If what he already did isn't enough to warrant being told to leave, what would he have to do to be told to leave? What would he have to do? What would be "bad enough" to make me say "ok, that's enough" ???

How much is enough? I know it's crossed that threshold many times over.

So why is he still here? I knew at the time I "should" have been firm and strong from the beginning. Instead, he's played me. I'd cry and insist he be here. Every time I act tough, I back down. He knows that. He counts on that. He knows I'm too "nice" and takes advantage of it.

I know I've insisted we get therapy, but I know he won't change. I know this. So why can't I make a clean break? How do I get strong? How do I get the courage to do what I need - must - do?

I'm so sorry! What a mess he has created.

How do you do it? You find that anger, you strap on your bitch boots and realize he's dragging you down! You can feel sorry for him because he's broken, but you don't have to fix him. And he is preventing you from peace and safety.

He is very broken. And until he can do the work to make him safe for you, I strongly suggest you *at least* separate before you end up with a disease. :( This guy is not one bit concerned with your health and safety. I'd be so pissed. GET PISSED!!

((hugs))

I knew at the time I "should" have been firm and strong from the beginning.

Here is the good news: you can be strong now. We have your back 100%.

You get to be strong. You get to decide. This is YOUR life. If this isn't working for you (from your posts, it looks like it isn't), then you can change it.

You deserve more than a life filled with lies and manipulations.

How do you get strong? You are already there. Look at how far you've come from the start of your posting here. You are questioning things. You are gaining knowledge. You know what you won't put up with. This is just the tip of the iceberg. Keep doing what you are doing. We all stumble from time to time, but you are on the right path for sure!

Honey, it's not too late. You can heal and be happy. Truly.

I think you are in shock and in denial. That's normal given the situation. Please forget marriage counseling for now, and seek individual counseling. Your H is deeply disturbed. He has anal sex with TS prostitutes on a regular basis. He carries around VHS of 16 seconds of footage of his 'dead girlfriend' who turns out to be someone he stalked decades ago. And there are mountains of secrets you have yet to uncover, I'm sure of it. I would advise talking to his ex-wife but what's the point. He's NOT NORMAL. You cannot make him become the person you thought he was by having him sign an agreement. I get scared for your safety every time you confront. As all his lies come crashing down he may do something desperate to avoid facing himself. There's not much you can do for this guy - he has been running from himself from a long time - with good reason. You should run too. I hope you do.

Detaching is a process. You will find yourself spending more and more time focusing on yourself. It is a difficult process at times, because we have to face important questions about ourselves, such as;

Why am I staying involved in the drama of trying to manage a mentally ill person?

My answer was that I had low self-esteem.

That realization helped, because not only was it the truth, it also provided the answer: To focus more on me, building myself back up (our sense of self gets manipulated and eroded over time - we get "conditioned" into reactions - there are feelings we are not even in control of ourselves, it's a bit crazymaking at times) - but stay focused on you.

Take the time to find yourself again. Use your psychic and emotional energy doing that. Let thoughts of why you are doing, or thinking, or feeling x, y, or z

dominate your thoughts.

Get to know yourself again.

Let those thoughts of you completely drown out any of the crazy whys of him.

You can do this.

WIS,

Sorry I've been MIA for a few days - just got through catching up on your thread.

Believe me, I know the feeling of being SCARED. I remember my first post was titled "44 and starting over - how?" At the time, I was totally dependent on my H. He WANTED it that way. I wasn't working because he made a comfortable living. We had a beautiful home, a vacation home, and a condo in a sunny location. Nice cars, boats, and from all appearances, a "charmed life". In the years I hadn't been working, I didn't realize that I had become so dependent on him. The thought of starting over in my mid 40's was terrifying.

But, living with what I discovered about him was more terrifying.

I have to agree with your assertion that he has some serious mental issues. I think annanew nailed it in her post and I'm glad you are reading all of our posts again and again.

Please don't be hard on yourself, thinking that you should have kicked him out long ago. Hindsight is always 20/20. In my situation, my exH simply would NOT face his demons and we split immediately. It tormented me for a looooong time that he could just turn and walk away. Although I was repulsed by him and the person I learned he truly was, I wanted to believe that I MEANT something to him. IOW, I wanted him to WANT me and fight for me, but I knew I could never take him back. He was SUCH a narcissist and manipulator (I now know), I knew he would never do the hard work required to be an authentic person. Hell, the lying, cheating, manipulator that fashioned himself smarter than anyone else WAS his authentic self. I just couldn't and wouldn't spend the rest of my life policing him.

But, I can tell from your posts that you ARE getting stronger, and the reality of your situation is starting to sink in. It is never too late to start focusing on YOU just as jjct outlined in his post. Honestly, I think you may be better off than I was because I pulled the trigger so quickly. It was a LOT to wrap my head and heart around, and it took YEARS for me to come out of my own fog of pain. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. It has been a long, long road back to MY mental health.

I agree with those that have recommended not investing time in MC for now. Get yourself set up for some IC that will help YOU sort out the turmoil you are feeling. I went to IC for about 18 months, and hands down, it was the BEST thing I ever did for myself.

Keep posting and let us know how you're doing. We'll help you through this. This site has been a lifeline for all of us. Those that have "survived" will help you survive infidelity too.

[This message edited by Too_Trusting at 9:38 PM, April 30th (Thursday)]