SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Yep.....Crickets to this one.

ADryHeat and I.will.survive both opined that she was looking for some control and a fight. I sort of agree with a little bit of exposition. From the lengths of my posts you can all tell that I love me some exposition, I do!

She doesn't, I don't think, have healthy coping mechanisms. I think that she _does_ have a lot of pent up emotions over the break up. So - yes, I agree that she's looking for a fight. I don't think that she particularly _wants_ to fight, but that instead she doesn't know how to let off emotional steam in any other way. However at this point I'm just projecting _my_ feelings onto her and in the final analysis, meh.

One of the reasons that I ended things with her is that we could never really seem to _talk_ about things in depth. I'd throw out an opinion, I'd get back a simple "I agree" or some such and that was it. No supporting stories or thoughts, no discussing alternate possibilities, just - "Yeah". Sadly (or perhaps not so sadly), this wasn't enough for me.

WornDown said:

Contact will just give them hope that you don't want to give.

Yes, I think that that is quite possible. That she was still hoping because she's still coming to terms with breaking up. In the long run, though, breaking up with her is a form of betrayal to what _her_ ideas of the relationship were.

(ex-GF texted me this weekend first time in 2 weeks. The pang of hope came back. But I think I beat it into submission...)

I will admit curiosity about the tone of her text, but that's yours to share or not.

I do think that you're better off not replying. I could be very wrong, but I tend to think once broken up stay that way...

StrongHeart delved into DM a bit, so I'll delve, too.

I think, especially as FBS, in an attempt to prevent future pain we tend to ride the far swings of the pendulum before settling into equilibrium.

Yes, I agree, and we see this _everywhere_. While not a lawyer, I especially notice it in lawmaking and resulting "quick fix" laws. Some real tragedy happens and the bourgeoisie raise a quite justifiable hue and cry about it and !bang! immediately some lawmakers start making multiple bills and blah, blah, blah. The pendulum is far, far up and we get bad law as a result. Later it swings down and we get some modifications to the law, then it swings the other way and the law gets really changed or repealed, then it starts swinging back and...

This is a part of the flight of fight/flight/quiet survival mechanism, I think. Something bad happens and we overreact in wanting it to not happen again.

This is basically my second dating experience since xWGF and I didn't really recognize the first as dating, it was (from that woman's point of view) more pal-ing around until ONS/BriefFling. From my POV it was just a couple of new friends hanging out.

I do recognize that I need to recalibrate a bit. It does suck that it generally takes dating around a little to do that. Hurt feelings for everyone! Yay!

I recognize the rhetorical prose device of your question about whether I ought to have ended it sooner. To answer a rhetorical question, perhaps. She showed some incorrect ways of dealing with _lots_ of adult life stressors when we first started going out. My take was "who amongst us is perfect?" and to cut her some slack. When those behaviors continued I should have cut ties, but I gave it a little more to see if she'd bounce back to normal or if this was her normal.

Turns out that it was her normal.

Perhaps an attitude of mine is unhealthy: I often think that our SOs stay with us in spite of our dumb shit instead of because we're such wonderful folks! I think that that thought drives me to minimize my dumb shit. In reality, the two POVs are really just opposite sides of the same coin.

Thanks, everyone! Now, if we want to, let us threadjack away! I love conversations that "Squirrel!" onto tangents.

WornDown, how you doin'?

To answer a rhetorical question, perhaps. She showed some incorrect ways of dealing with _lots_ of adult life stressors when we first started going out. My take was "who amongst us is perfect?" and to cut her some slack. When those behaviors continued I should have cut ties, but I gave it a little more to see if she'd bounce back to normal or if this was her normal.

Turns out that it was her normal.

This is exactly what I was referring to and I was not implying that you are on one extreme or the other, rather you may be feeling that way but actually seem (IMO) to be more balanced. I agree with your thoughts…no one amongst us is perfect. Dating is a way of figuring out what imperfections we can and cannot tolerate. We don’t always know going in and decision making isn’t (and almost never should be, again IMO) a quick thing.

The only thing I would add to is the “normal” comment. You know, I’ve grappled a lot with this in my mind…what is healthy “individual growth” and what is unhealthy “waiting for change”. I think relationships are meant to reflect our dark corners, so many times they cause struggles and changes and that’s a very GOOD thing. On that same note, when do you stop hoping someone will change and cut your losses versus living in the struggle for a while to give them the opportunity to change and grow?

I say all this because I don’t necessarily think that someone’s “normal” should always be the red flag…rather how they react to finding out that their “normal” may not be healthy. I have found in dating that there are red flags that require immediate “nexting” and there are yellow flags that require “watching”. We are all pretty good about identifying general compatibility and weeding out those red flags, but it’s the yellows that seems to get us…which is why we swing so far post infidelity. It’s too hard to play “wait and see” with the possibility of pain so close to the surface. It is that wait and see that is healthy though…and that’s what you did.

Knowing that I am really in a season of great growth and change in my life, I would hate to be discarded for some of my “normal” tendencies right now. Let me give an example…I was a little aware of this (but maybe not fully comprehending or willing to accept or address it?) until now. My current relationship has brought to light my “normal” tendency to pull away when someone tries to make an intimate connection with me. This is surprising to me and hard to understand because I am a very sensitive and soft-hearted person, BUT apparently giving is much easier for me than receiving. It’s very frustrating for my SO who is also a very soft-hearted, sensitive, giving person. He, however, recognizes in me the desire for change in that department and the parts of my character that actually do the work to address my unhealthy bits. If I can’t work through this, it may become a deal-breaker, but for now he is willing to accept that I am working on it. If it does get to the deal breaking point, I wouldn’t say that he should have ended it sooner (maybe he will though).

Soooo, I guess that was a really long way of saying that I don’t know that it’s so much the normal behaviors and tendencies as it is the normal method for dealing with the opportunity for change and growth. Was she made aware of these unhealthy mechanisms? Did she blow them off or make an honest attempt to look at them and decide whether she wanted to change them or purposely keep them just the way they are?

This was not meant to be telling as much as it is just sharing some of my thought growth about relationships in hopes it resonates. In XWH, I had the “no one’s perfect mindset” and waited for change from someone who made it clear from the beginning that he was not interested in change or growth as an individual. In other relationships I refused to expect change and was, perhaps, unrealistic about my expectations…seeking Mr. perfect, which then made me want to bend to make it “fit”. I’ve since come to the understanding I described above and have found a current SO who is not perfect, but strives every day to be better. He is introspective, open to discussion about imperfections and willing and able to address his unhealthy bits. To me, that says more about the success of our relationship than scrutinizing all aspects of his current "normal". Of course, you may already understand this or you may totally disagree, haha.

[This message edited by StrongHeart at 10:45 AM, March 1st (Wednesday)]

Soooo, I guess that was a really long way of saying that I don’t know that it’s so much the normal behaviors and tendencies as it is the normal method for dealing with the opportunity for change and growth. Was she made aware of these unhealthy mechanisms? Did she blow them off or make an honest attempt to look at them and decide whether she wanted to change them or purposely keep them just the way they are?

I was going to break up the quoted block into sections to reply to, but my mouse isn't working correctly and so - this is what we have to work with.

StrongHeart, I notice that you are 31 years old. You have time left before you reach the end of your expected life span. I, too, have time but it is at least 23 years less.

This may sound harsh. It may be harsh. It may even point out to some that I'm not ready to be a safe dating partner. So be it.

This woman was mid 40's. That's the greatest negative age difference that I've ever tried. She is, however, unarguably a full adult with responsibilities. In my take, one of those is to be consistently and constantly as self-aware as possible. To consider how actions look and how others are likely to emotionally react to those actions.

Specifically, if I mentioned that something that she was doing might seem harsh or her approach to communications with family might be better if it were a little more empathic, well, nothing was acknowledged and nothing changed. If I pointed out that she was enabling bad behavior in her adult daughter - nothing acknowledged, nothing changed. If I pointed out that her adult daughter was driving her teenage daughter from her house and that that was really going to do a number on teen daughter's self-esteem - nothing acknowledged, nothing changed.

I do realize that a respectful, cautious, non-judgmental approach is best when discussing hard subjects. I used it.

I also realize that her unacceptable behaviors are Not My Circus, Not My Monkeys. Ultimately, they're not. And if we're having these sorts of behavioral issues/value differences/communication problems early on _and_ she's and adult who has presumably been acting this way since she _became_ an adult, well, I just don't think that I want to spend the rest of my life working on her crap. That she exhibits no problem recognition WRT her crap only makes it worse.

I do, BTW, exhibit the same callous attitude? with my own problems. I do my best to recognize and correct them because it isn't really a dating partner's job to have to point out to me things to change so that I am a good, safe, dating partner. I should _be_ a good, safe, dating partner _when I advertise myself for dating_.

Just for giggles, let us consider the value proposition here.

You are a US female with an average lifespan of, I think 78 is the newest number. And I think that it is 72 for US males.

So if you spend a year evaluating and being evaluated for a long term relationship then you have spent 1/(78-31) or 1/47th of your remaining span.

If I spend a year evaluating and being evaluated then I have spent 1/(72-54) or 1/18th of my remaining span.

Frankly, the value proposition just isn't there for me. I'd rather be alone than with a woman that I have to take on as a long-term project. (Not saying that _you_ are a long-term project, btw, but this last one of mine definitely was.)

I dunno, whatcha think? I _think_ that there is a problem with my logic in there somewhere, like taking _less_ than a year to evaluate is just unrealistic, love-bombing, and asking for trouble. I do entertain that argument internally. I have no resolution or even any real headway on that particular conundrum.

ETA - fixed a broken wink

[This message edited by devotedman at 6:15 PM, March 1st, 2017 (Wednesday)]

Well, shit...I got dumped partly (mostly?) because I'm 11 years younger.

YMMV

Not sure how to take your comment, WD? I didn't end it because she was younger. I ended it because she was a fixer-upper that I didn't want to take on.

Sort of. I'm feverish, achy, runny-nosed, and so I'm muzzy-headed a bit.

I didn't really mean anything by it towards you. Some people do get hung up on age differences, though.

At this point in my life, a 10 year age difference isn't that big of a deal, IMO. It might be if I was seeing someone in their mid-30s who still wanted kids, but that's about it. We're both full grown adults, with a lot of life experiences.

Haha, I was thinking, “No way DM would have spent a full year with someone who isn’t introspective, mature and willing and able to address their problems. He just couldn’t tolerate an emotionally immature woman that long.” That’s where my previous posts were coming from. I now see that you gave her ample opportunity to address those concerns and she blatantly chose not to acknowledge or address them.

like taking _less_ than a year to evaluate is just unrealistic, love-bombing, and asking for trouble.

Why is less than a year automatically considered love-bombing? My parent’s raised me to believe that those people who meet, “fall in love” and rush in to marriage quickly are immature and stupid. They said it takes years to get to know someone and even then, you never fully know them. You can imagine my surprise when I found out that XWH was a cheater even though I dated him for 7 years before marrying him. I thought I spent enough time “screening” hime by “getting to know him”…apparently not! HA!

I now know differently. You can know someone for 25 years and still not know them. Look at how many people on here discover their spouse is cheating after 20+ years together. So, can you really know someone in a matter of months? Of course not. Can you make an informed decision about your potential for success with this person after a few months? Sure! Is that a guarantee? Of course, not…but there are never any guarantees.

This is where those behaviors vs. mechanisms part comes in and I really think this speaks to your conundrum. With XGF, I am assuming you first made sure you were compatible and attracted to each other and then continued (over the span of the relationship) to compare and contrast your shared interests to make sure the compatibility was valid. At the same time you made note of certain yellow flags, mentioned them to her and watched and waited to see if these were her norm. This does take considerable time wait and watch for that sort of thing, because people can be out of their “norm” for months sometimes when it comes to specific behaviors and depending on the situation at hand. This is what I am suggesting…

You meet someone and are either attracted or not. You start to get to know them and begin to assess your compatibility and shared interests. This continues throughout the dating relationship. As you notice yellow flags, you address them with her. If she blows you off, you end it then. If she says she wants to work on it, you give her a month or so to show you that she is making strong attempts to address it. If you don’t see her making strides, you discuss it with her again. If she agrees to try harder or can show that she has made behind the scenes efforts thus far, then you give her another month or so to show you. If she still hasn’t, you end it then. This extends the relationships for maybe 2 to 3 months from the time that you feel uneasy about it.

I'd rather be alone than with a woman that I have to take on as a long-term project.

Oh, hell no. No one should want to take on a "project", let alone a "long-term project". Behaviors do take a long time to change, but the attempt to change is immediate and apparent. A short (a couple months) time frame is enough time to show you many things. 1. How she reacts to your concerns, 2. Her investment in you and the relationship, 3. Her ability to recognize and make change within herself, 4. Her ability to compromise within a relationship to make the relationship work, etc. This attempt to change is the “mechanism” that I am referring to and IMO is the best indicator of a healthy partner.

So, if she couldn’t “adult” healthily, then maybe you were right when you say you should have ended it sooner. You’ve recognized it though and can now make strides to change it in the future. When you notice that future dating partners are not attempting to address their yellow flags with you immediately, let them know it concerns you, and give them a month or so to show you they care. Otherwise, cut your losses.

ETA: btw, I agree that you should not have to point out your partner's shortcomings. What kind of a relationship is that? Your healthy parts will naturally bring to the surface the unhealthy parts of your partner (and vice versa) and it is up to your partner to recognize this and make the change. You don't tell them what THEY are doing/not doing, you tell them how what ever it is is effecting you. Then they/the both of you together evaluate the situation and find a solution.

Also ETA: Hope you feel better. Sorry for the long winded posts and discussion of things you probably already know/have thought about. I am a verbal processor.

[This message edited by StrongHeart at 9:54 AM, March 2nd (Thursday)]

Why is less than a year automatically considered love-bombing?

More later, bud my code anb feber id cawzing cudfuzhen.

No, it isn't really love-bombing. I was just being diacritical. No, not diacritical. That leaves marks. Rhetorical? Dramatic? Overstating for effect? Something like that.

You've given me some to think about and chew over. Off to work from home and ruminate.

OK.....but isn't this what dating is all about? Getting to know someone, finding out if you are compatible, blah, blah, blah??????????

k9

With xWGF we waited what I thought was long enough to get to know each other. Obviously, it was not long enough for the red flags to fully appear before I got all committed and crap.

I've since read on SI several people recommending a book or outlook that says that if you say, "I love you" before a year is up then you're going too fast. I thought that I'd give it a try this time.

I think that my biggest (possible) problem, though, is that I recognize stuff, mention it, and then sit back to A) see if it changes or B) becomes less of a big deal for me. A partner has off days, I have off days when I'm PMSing (Pushing My Shit) onto others. Meh, not the best but it happens.

The long and the short of it is that I held off successfully getting all deeply emotionally involved. Then I mentioned a few things and watched how she handled a variety of life stressors and - at the end of the day her coping mechanisms were something that I'd have to ignore or suffer silently and I just decided Enough! I'm done.

I think that the best thing that I can take away from this is that I don't have to give quite so much time when I feel a little woozy about proceeding.

And, yes, I _am_ somewhat concerned that I'm just done with the whole romance thing in general. Meh. Struck out twice, seem to maybe have a broken picker, and I can tell that I'm friendzoning myself with women that I do meet.

Though there _is_ this one...

...

Sorry it took so long to get back to this. Sick and the downtime yesterday matched up exactly with my free time. So I laid around and watched a movie.

Hmm.

I'm not sure I agree with the "if you say I Love You within a year you are moving too fast" thing.

But I can agree with sitting back and becoming friends first before you commit to the I Love You stuff.

Is it becoming the norm to have sex before you know if you even like the person?

k9

Ok, so with my background I'll have to answer that that was at one time the norm for me.

With the 'sex after the third date' common assumption amongst some daters now, well, yes. I don't think that you can really become friends in three dates. I think that you can be friendly, attracted, really hoping, toe-tinglingly full-on for someone after three dates. I think that true friends, however, takes longer.

No problem, just reporting in.

Still getting random texts. Still not replying.

I probably won't reply, but I am curious - Should I? Just to explain why I'm not? Or is that likely to keep it going and/or cause her pain for little to no gain?

Nah...She's got some kind of crazy going on. Best to just avoid it.

She's been texting with no reply since February?! Yikes, seems she's struggling to get the point. And yes to the crazy lol.

The only thing I might consider is a "please stop contacting me" response to cover your bases if you end up needing to work with authorities. She sounds like the sort that may end up as stalker if she is still messaging you months later.

Unlike many, I am always in favor of letting folks know where they stand. In my XW's case, silence by strangers allowed her delusions (clinical delusions) to flourish.

I would hate to have seen how things would have gotten if you guys would have been intimate.. But obviously she wanted more and you wanted someone else.. So it's obvious why she accused you of cheating, if she saw nothing wrong with the relationship, except minor bumps in the road (nobody and/or relationship is perfect) and you do a 180 on her.. yea.. it's understandable, as much as it's misguided.. since it's not true.

I personally find this statement you made, not cool:

If I pointed out that she was enabling bad behavior in her adult daughter - nothing acknowledged, nothing changed. If I pointed out that her adult daughter was driving her teenage daughter from her house and that that was really going to do a number on teen daughter's self-esteem - nothing acknowledged, nothing changed.

As a parent myself, I can understand someone's opinion of my kids and my parenting.. but that's it.. an opinion. If I am with someone and they point out ideas or whatnot.. they are opinions.. I do not have to change my parenting skills for anyone.. You wouldn't either. That person is with me for me.. and how I'm with them.. eventually the parenting will end as the kids will move on with their own lives.. You mentioned other issues you didn't like about her.. So, regardless you made a good choice by ending it.. Both people being in different places in life/desire just sucks all around.. especially for the dumped one.

I probably won't reply, but I am curious - Should I? Just to explain why I'm not? Or is that likely to keep it going and/or cause her pain for little to no gain?

Why don't you have her number blocked so that you aren't even receiving these texts?

I ended a relationship and stopped responding to texts. He hand wrote me a letter and mailed it to me.

I finally wrote him an email telling him that it was to the point where he was making ME feel bad for not responding....when I already explained why we couldn't date and now couldn't be friends. He replied to that email of mine and I didn't reply to his. Then he sent another one.

So you see...responding is not a good thing! I thought I could give him closure (again) and what he took from it was hope.

Just block her so she can't text and you don't feel guilty/bothered/reminded.

First, thanks to all of the responders! I do appreciate the chance to bounce my ideas off of other folks.

Worndown summed up my thinking pretty well with:

Nah...She's got some kind of crazy going on. Best to just avoid it.

Which is exactly why I posted. Was my thinking correct? It often isn't, just like everybody else.

IfYouCanDream,

She's been texting with no reply since February?!

Yes, though only every three weeks(?) or so. There is enough time between each that I'm honestly surprised when one hits.

Yikes, seems she's struggling to get the point. And yes to the crazy lol.

Yeah. As I see it, she isn't getting what she wants as an outcome and her coping mechanisms are crap when that happens. Which was part of why I broke things off with her, because her coping mechanisms weren't good. So, crazy? Honestly, I don't think so but I'm willing to be surprised, KWIM?

That attitude of mine, BTW, is part of that "mental model" thing about people that I do go on about in JFO. _My_ method of coping with breaking up while dating is a certain thing and since I had never broken up with her before I sort of projected her expected behavior to be like mine. My mental model of her was faulty there. And I'm doing the same thing with the possibility of "crazy". I do realize that and that's why I'm willing to be surprised and proven wrong.

The only thing I might consider is a "please stop contacting me" response to cover your bases if you end up needing to work with authorities. She sounds like the sort that may end up as stalker if she is still messaging you months later.

Yeah, I was thinking of that. Honestly, my opinion is that _any_ communication at all, even negative communication, will be seen as being willing to continue the conversation. She only lives 20 mins away and to a real stalker that's just a walk around the block.

PlanC's

Unlike many, I am always in favor of letting folks know where they stand. In my XW's case, silence by strangers allowed her delusions (clinical delusions) to flourish.

is something that I agree with. I did, however, let her know where she stood back in February. And, IMHO, which could be wrong, I think that _any_ continued communication is going to show her that if she texts me _enough_ then I will reply. Which is a step to some goal of hers.

It is exactly his opinion, though, that was rolling around in the back of my head and prompted me to post. His "unlike many" mirrors my own state of mind: 90 percent NC, 10 percent should I C?

LilBlackCat,

I would hate to have seen how things would have gotten if you guys would have been intimate..

exactly why I think that the "sex on the third date" norm(-ish) behavior is full of landmines. Yes, it is fun. Yes, it is rewarding. -But- it is becoming intimate with someone whose full mental state you are not aware of. Since "normal" is defined by how most people act, in most cases you're safe enough. But in those cases where someone's behavior is a bit off, well, you've just signed up for a whole world of hurt. Tortoise and the Hare, slow wins in the end.

I personally find this statement you made, not cool: (parenting comments)

Yeah, I didn't give much context for that. She was continually dismayed that her bi-polar adult daughter acted as she did and made the choices that she made. Choices that drove her younger daughter to go live with the grandparent's (dating partner's parents).

Now, I'm all for letting people vent from time to time. But surprise at the consequences of bad behavior on the part of an adult that you continue to allow to live with you?

You know how a friend tells you if your shirt is on inside out or there's toilet paper stuck to your shoe? So we talked a time or two about how adult daughter's diagnosis will make her impossible to live with...

This is getting long, the same reason that I condensed what really happened into the short bit that you quoted. I realize that it sounded as if I was telling her how to parent (an adult, over 18 year-old daughter). I wasn't.

The long and the short of it is that she was talking about how much trouble the daughter was and how she drove the other, younger, daughter away from home. So I offered to give an opinion if she wanted to listen. She listened, agreed that older daughter needed more/better/different boundaries, then did nothing about it.

There's a time to offer a shoulder and there's a time for 2x4's and clue-bats and tough love and boundaries and all the rest. Basically, older daughter was ruling the household and got away with whatever she wanted to do and Mom wouldn't stand up to her. I watched my Dad have to deal with that in his second marriage and I just didn't want to have to deal with it since Mom obviously wasn't going to stand up to adult daughter.

It was complicated and messy and I still haven't explained it well. I'd have been walking into a bad situation and I just didn't want to do that.

So my comment was more about her not doing anything at all to make things better instead of her not doing as I suggested, which is what it sounded like.

I.will.survive asked:

Why don't you have her number blocked so that you aren't even receiving these texts?

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

Seriously, the way my phone provider (and phone?) works is that if I block a number then the only thing that happens is that the phone does not make the incoming text sound. I do still get the text. Oh, and voice calls go straight to voice mail and there's no notification of that, either.

Plus, I have a little window into her attitude towards me. I'd hate to block a bunny-boiler text if it should happen to be sent...

Thanks, all, you mirror my own thinking. Which I got to examine again by making _this_ post.

Any comments on my (now expanded upon) thinking?