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If the WW is crying bc she doesn't want to do for her BH what she did for her AP, then she obviously:

- doesn't love her BH

- cares more for her AP than her BH

- prefers sex with her AP over her BH

- is only staying with her BH for selfish reasons that have nothing to do with love (security, image, AP won't take her/Plan B, etc)

Or... she’s crying because

She loves her BH and he’s hurting her even if she deserves some harsh words

She no longer cares for the AP and doesn’t know how to convince her BS

Is now damaged and the idea of sex with anyone is shameful

Prefers to not be called slut or whore during sex

Prefers not to be screamed at during sex

Doesn’t like angry sex

Is growing tired of accepting and swallowing humiliation related to sex

Is only staying with her BH because she’s sorry and she loves him

Is staying with her BS only because he has threatened to financially devastate her.

Is only staying because she has a profound attachment to the classic car in the garage or the poodle in the kitchen or doesn’t want to lose her lifestyle or hates cold weather and doesn’t want to move or doesn’t like living in a studio apartment or is afraid of what her parents will say when they find out what she did to her marriage or she really is a ball of vacuous fluff who doesn’t want to give up her weekly mani-pedis or she has a personality disorder or she is incapable of empathy or she doesn’t want to share her children or she wants more children or she who the hell knows?

All of those reasons could be the reason(s). Yours and mine. None of them are the “obvious” reason. We all have our own dynamics and situations here.

Maybe I read it wrong....

Is she crying bc she doesn't want to do it,or is she crying bc he is calling her names during the act just to be cruel?

If the WW is crying bc she doesn't want to do for her BH what she did for her AP, then she obviously:

- doesn't love her BH

- cares more for her AP than her BH

- prefers sex with her AP over her BH

- is only staying with her BH for selfish reasons that have nothing to do with love (security, image, AP won't take her/Plan B, etc)

GoldenR, by cheating she has already demonstrated that she:

- doesn't love her BH

- cares more for her AP than her BH

- prefers sex with her AP over her BH

Now that might change and she may love her BH again. But other reasons for not wanting those acts would be:

- She is ashamed of those acts

- She was coerced into those acts and didn't say no to AP, but doesn't really want them

- She has no sexual desire left due to being put down and screamed at

- The BH doesn't maintain good hygiene

You can say that you don't care about any of these reasons. And that would be your prerogative. Question is, do you want sex with a partner who doesn't really want it but doing it for fear of consequences?

It could be both or either. I think it’s incumbent on us as humans to stop. Understand it. If you don’t understand it. Ask. Talk about it. Come to a conclusion. If she doesn’t want to do it and it is a condition of reconciliation, tell her and let her go. File. Do the things you need to do to end the marriage.

That said, there is no marriage to save if a BS believes that because of infidelity, it’s their right to angrily inflict permanent damage on their spouse under the guise of it being a “condition of reconciliation”. That isn’t reconciliation. It’s taking advantage of the power dynamic and it is straight up punitive and in no way contributes toward honest healthy reconciliation. Penetrating her when you know she is not really consenting but rather bending and enduring being called horrible abusive names and being treated like garbage is sexual abuse.

I will try a different take here based on my experience.

"A BS can always divorce." Yes, we all know that. A BS can divorce under any circumstances with a clear conscience.

Suppose a BS and WS have 10,000 sex acts before A. Anal 5,000 times. Then the the WS has a single PIV act with a stranger. The WS immediately confesses. WS offers to do Anal every single time, plus a bunch of other stuff the couple had never done before. Can the BS still divorce with a clear conscience?

Yes, of course. Infidelity can be a deal breaker. The sex was great, post-A offer by WS was exceptional, assume WS is also genuinely remorseful. Really an exceptional WS. But still a WS, R is always a gift, and BS may elect not to offer it.

No BS wants to be a BS. But if it must happen, it's certainly better with a remorseful WS that is game for anything. Of course, many BS offer the gift of R anyway, often to very poorly performing WS.

So the WS already hurt the BS with the A. The BS offers the gift of R, with additional stipulations that certain sex acts that were off the table in the dead marriage are going to be included. Those sex acts were a part of the A. WS refuses. BS divorces.

Does the ADDITIONAL refusal to be a remorseful, game for anything WS make the WS a WORSE person than the WS in my first example? YES. BS would all prefer, even if marriage ended, that WS truly regretted their actions. Because many of us don't even get that.

This is the one area of life where none of us want tidiness. We want the other person to cry, to care, to be broken up. A WS walking away cold, that's awful.

This isn’t any different to an employer telling an employee that if they don’t engage in sex they’ll lose their job. I don’t think we should be encouraging abuse.

yuvas, sorry but I call BS on that!!! The employer had NO PREVIOUS relationship that entitled him to be an EXCLUSIVE SEX PARTNER FOR LIFE!!! The employer was never betrayed!!

For the employer to do that is RAPE plain and simple!! What we are talking about is a wife that promised EXCLUSIVITY in a relationship and then decided to have a side piece. Then she does sexual things with the AP that she never did with her husband!! How does that relate to your "employer" situation!

This isn’t any different to an employer telling an employee that if they don’t engage in sex they’ll lose their job. I don’t think we should be encouraging abuse.

So you're objecting to a BS going for D if they don't want to be treated second sexually to the AP? That's abuse?! Please explain.

yuvas, you took offense when none was meant. If you read what I said it was that "If your husband didn't know it was a do or die situation then he is dumber than a rock. What I was implying is that I don't think your husband is stupid (hell I've never met him) that even though you did not specify the obvious penalty HE KNEW what the alternative was if he did not do as you wished!

I will freely admit it was put out there in a very tactless way and I'm sorry if I insulted you. All I was saying was that there was no alternative. This is a man that KNOWS you and how you work. The threat was never mentioned but was pervasive in the room.

JMO YMMV

Yuvas,

I think your example doesn’t correlate because the power dynamic between an employer and employee was never meant to be equal as it is meant to be in a marriage. In the employer/employee relationship, there is a contract, i.e., you perform this set of [legal] tasks and I pay you, but ultimately, the employer has authority over the employee.

Marriage [a healthy one] is supposed to be a partnership based on mutual respect, trust, honesty, etc. Of course, in all of our cases, the marriage has been gravely damaged by infidelity.

If a WW can participate in sexual acts with an AP and not a spouse, a licensed sex therapist should be consulted by the couple. I can understand how a betrayed would feel slighted by what appears to be a spouse who is adventurous and free with an AP, but not with their betrayed spouse. Perhaps a sex therapist can help the couple find that sense of adventure and freeness within the marriage. Any wayward should be wanting and willing to go with their betrayed to a sex therapist to address this issue and help them create a sex life that is satisfying, safe, adventurous and free within the bounds of a faithful marriage. If the wayward refuses to go to sex therapy to address the issue, that would be very telling to me as betrayed.

Walloped, your example would be apt if the WH had engaged in pegging with his AP. It would be especially apt if pegging was something his BW had requested of him previously, and been denied, something she wanted, and she then found out he happily did this with another woman and even got a lot of pleasure from it. In those circumstances, IMHO, the BW would be fully justified in saying "Bend over, Buster, and let Mama drive, and if you don't, this ticket gets you a ride on the D train."

fucking hilarious how quickly this shit gets twisted around.

If you absolutely want certain sex acts from your WW, ask, not demand. If she is not willing, walk out. But don't ask her to perform under threat of divorce.

This is a distinction without a difference. Ask for it, and if he/she doesn't do it, divorce them. Unless your partner has a learning disability, they are going to realize that "I want you to go down on me, it's very important" carries with it (even if not said) "and if you don't, after you did it every time with your skank AP, I will divorce you".

Should you word things well in R? I think we all agree you should. Lashing out in pain and calling my WW a whore/slut, while justified, isn't going to fix anything. So I talk to her more from the heart rather than anger. But let me tell you, if she had continued to see/sleep with the OM, I would have D'ed her in a heartbeat; so.. Does not saying "stop being his whore or I'll D you" when that was my intent all along actually mean that's not message she heard? I'm pretty sure that's what she understood the "new rules" to be.

Second, 'asking' and 'demanding with consequences' are not the same thing. How many stories have you come across of waywards who don't stop contact with OWs, even after repeated pleadings by their BSs, until divorce is threatened? To me, that is pointless. Because the WSs are doing what they are asked to do not out of love for the BS, but for the fear of consequences for themselves. I wouldn't want that anyway. In a relationship, I don't want anything that is not given to me freely and happily.

If people cant do something willingly, without threat of consequences, then they are doing it for the wrong reasons anyway.

While I agree with your thesis in this post, the simple fact is, very, very few WS's would meet the criteria for R if we look at it this way. How many people have a WS who didn't lie to their face after D-day? Trickle truth? Maintain contact with the AP? Do the work without prodding? Amp up the sexual side of the relationship? Yes, there certainly are some who do/did, but it's very rare. Just read the stories here, broken NC, TT, and a whole lot of other "backslides" are more the norm than "Woke up today, decided my A was a bad idea, sat my W down, told her the whole story, enrolled in MC and IC, and joined SI". That about never happens, sadly.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 7:28 AM, September 26th (Wednesday)]

coerce someone under threat of divorce to participate. If lack of activity X is truly the tipping point for the BS, they have every right to divorce.

I just never understood why a sex act in and of itself means so much.

Nearly everything that happens in early R is "under threat of D" to get the WS to participate. Shoot, that's what the 180 is all about, showing them what they will be losing. Going NC, timelines, telling the truth, all of it is said, something directly, usually indirectly with "or I will D your cheating a**" at the end of each request/demand.

To your second paragraph, I'd say, respectfully, that's because your not a man. This topic has been discussed at length before, and it divides very neatly down gender lines. The reason you don't understand is because you probably know that you could have your H do anything you want with you in the next 10 minutes if you so desired. He'd never deny you any sex act you dreamed up, or, speaking for myself, that's how I was with my W. Of course it wouldn't resonate with her, she's never been denied sex or sexual acts by me, and perhaps not in her entire life. So it's just very different between the sexes here, IMHO.

Flip it. What if it involved a WH and not a WW. And the BW said “Since you fucked that slut, I’m going to put on this strap-on. Bend over and grab your ankles. Or, I call my lawyer and it’s D and I’ll take half your assets, your pension, the house and full custody of the kids. But I’ll be kind and give you one week to get comfortable with having this 12 inch strap-on shoved up your ass.”

Abuse or not?

Well, first off, did I do it with my AP? If so, then no, I don't see that as abusive at all. Especially if my W had expressed interest in it before, I'd denied it to her, and then went and did it with the AP (and this is the situation we're talking about most of the time here, H asks for anal, W says no, gives AP anal on 2nd date then continued to deny H anal that's what often sparks and fuels these threads).

If I didn't do it with the AP? No, I don't see that abuse, I see that as an "option". And let me tell you, if I were the cheater, and my W had a desire to do that (NOT to hurt me, because she was really into it sexually), I'd jump at the chance to take Mr 12" in my nether regions to prevent a D. Losing my W, losing my financial security, my home, my family; it would hurt a LOT more than anything you could possibly do to my rear end. People do that every day for fun, gay men do it all the time, not to hurt each other, but because there's obviously something enjoyable about it. I'd bend over and look at it as a new experience with the person I loved and try to figure out what I personally enjoy about it. Because there's obviously something to it, otherwise millions of people wouldn't do it on a regular basis.

Now, if we go one step further, if she wanted to beat me with a broom handle, or something that was only designed to inflict pain, I'd probably see that less positively. Yes, the pain I'd feel from a good "code red" style beating would still be a fraction of the pain of losing my W, but I'd be concerned about her motivations. People don't hit each other like that for pleasure, they only do it to inflict pain. And that would scare me a bit more, because it meant that my W really wanted to hurt me, not explore new things sexually together. I'd probably do it, just because the pain of the broom handle would also be less than the pain of D, but I'd be a lot more conflicted about something that was only designed to hurt me, not please her/me/us.

your example would be apt if the WH had engaged in pegging with his AP.

Why? Why should whether your spouse did the specific thing before matter? It’s still against his will. There are many reasons why a WS might engage in a particular sex act with an AP and many of those reasons are not healthy ones.

Being a BS is eating a really putrid turd burger for breakfast, lunch and dinner every day for a long, long time. It makes complete sense to me for a BS to D because they can’t deal (or the sense of unfairness, humiliation, etc.) with the fact that their spouse did specific sexual acts with their AP but won’t with them. Regardless of the reason. D makes perfect sense.

But let’s be real. There’s no way that the WS not doing these things with their BS prior to the infidelity hasn’t come up before. It has to have been a topic, and maybe even a sore one. So, it’s especially galling when the BS finds out their WS did that very thing with their AP, yet still won’t do it now. Super size that turd burger.

But even so, I guess I just don’t understand the concept of demanding it. If you’re going to R but that’s the only thing in your way, something is off. I’m not saying it’s easy to get over, or even that you should, but I can’t wrap my head around demanding it or using it as a cudgel to the threaten D with.

Lieswearmedown, I wanted to let you know that I put an apology here for you but I put yuvas on the title. It was the second post to yuvas on page two. Sorry for mislabeling the post.

But even so, I guess I just don’t understand the concept of demanding it.

In many instances we have seen here on SI, the WS said to the BS, pre-A, something to the effect of: "I just don't enjoy doing that." Something that implies this is an act the WS would not agree to do, at all.

After the A, the BS realizes this is not only something the WS is willing to do, but actually enjoys.

As discussed many times, one very common emotion experienced by a BS is sexual rejection. One element of R is re-establishing a belief, in the heart of the BS, that the WS desires her/him sexually. Actions speak louder than words.

This subject and previous actual sexual abuse are not the same thing.

The bh’s here are saying that ifntheir ww’s are notninterested in doing with them what they freely gave to a disgusting ap then they are wanting to d. There is no abuse there. That is a fair request.

To me a ws refusing to do sexual acts with their bs is a slap in the face. It’s saying I’m not that into you and I preferred the ap and a definite reason to start d.

If my wh did with the whore ap and refused me and still tried to tell me he wanted to r? I would know that he isn’t as attracted to me, that I am really second choice and that he is only with me because I am the safe or comfortable choice and that’s not an m I want to be in.

This topic always ends up being about people who have suffered sexual abuse and I don’t understand it. No one here is forcing anyone to do anything. They are simply saying that they want to receive at mi imim what was given to the ap who deserved nothing in the first place.

It’s not asking for something that is abusive or even asking for something that is impossible. They are asking to be treated at least as good as the ap.

I have been sexually abused many times in my life and this topic doesn’t trigger me and it certainly doesn’t make me feel that those that want the same as ap sexually are trying to abuse their waywards.

I have seen BH's say things like "anal was always off the table" but then find out they did anal with their AP. Well maybe that means anal should always be on the table. Not forced, but offered.

[This message edited by CincyKid at 8:22 AM, September 26th (Wednesday)]