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Would you be willing to take the RA permanently off the table if she took and passed a polygraph?

RC, 66charger proposes a good idea. The RA should be off the table completely. It's not going to help in the slightest.

There are some big issues that I see here. The first is that your WW's perspective and yours are completely different. So who's lying, exaggerating, and minimizing? Are you getting overly upset and making demands or is that a lie? You sound a lot more reasonable and flexible than she paints you.

If your WW is indeed lying about you and the situation then you can't R with her yet. R requires honesty, accountability, and transparency from the WS. You don't have honesty, don't have accountability if she is painting you as rigid and borderline abusive, and you barely have transparency but that sounds like a daily struggle. And according to you, your WW has to be coerced through every step of your requirements for R and even then she hasn't been doing some of the things she has agreed to.

Get IC for you and for her. Get the polygraph done. See if you can at the very least get some honesty here because the missing condom and her opportunity to have sex with the OM at the same time is strong evidence pointing to her still lying.

For the record, whether you consider it pertinent or not, one of the things that was not done for me was the sexting provacative photos/selfies on her own accord and sending them to me. I have made requests, but always denied. Until the A started, then I received a wonderful set of much effort placed into those "selfies", unsolicited by me. Then I found out the same photos were sent to OM2. It appeared that she found enough energy to then prepare herself and make enough energy/effort to take those "selfies". Only to find out that they were actually for OM2, but I received them as a byproduct of what was for OM2 because she never did that for me. I also considered not getting a hotel room merely for the purpose of sex to be the other as well as sex outside of the home or traditional areas. Ie work, car, etc. Things that I would have been more than happy to participate.

Nekonamida:

That is part of the reason I felt the need to come onto here. I started my account when I read through the last thread from WW at the end of last week. I was being painted as a monster from both perspectives of her, and others. I am offended that so few people couldn't understand the anger that results from this kind of LTA. For me to make rash and intense requests. I was also offended WW made it seem like I was badgering her daily to make the RA happen. At one point I was very insistant, but that dropped off a long time ago.

After reading some of the articles, I may just drop the whole RA idea in general. I just do not want to drop all my requests because then I will be the only person doing the work to heal the M.

I did not say that the RA was mandatory. I told her months ago that is she wants to take something off the list, she NEEDS to find a replacement for it. I became TIRED of her saying no, but offering no other replacement. Not even ideas or a starting point. I wanted insight, ideas etc. I know it is about me, but I was running dry on ideas. Which is why she was looking for answers with her last thread.

In terms of minimizing/exaggerating. I like to think that I am rather straight to the point. I tell horrible stories because of that. I have also excluded a lot of other details that would demonstrate just how deeply she has cut me, but I do not need to focus al of my energy in writing all of the wrongs from this A. WW certainly minimized the affair when I first found out, then I discovered more lies. Then she minimized, then I discovered more lies. Each time the lies were no small facts, but huge lies. From additional times having sex, to finding out the affair lasted 5 years longer than she originally stated.

We are very much on the opposite spectrum where I see she did an absolutely horrible thing for a LONG time. To her I feel like she may have only done a bad thing. I think she thinks that way because she said she refrained from kissing/touching back, not having sex with OM2 after 2012 etc. So that fact that she refrained from reciprocating the PA and no sex, was her justification that she was "doing a good job" at being a good person. Again, she states she had to set up road blocks during the last wedding they attended to avoid having sex with OM2. She sees that as being a good person. I do intend to inquire what her intentions that night were and if she did or did not have physical contact with OM2 during the polygraph.

So I added several task to her list. Including the polygraph. I told her yesterday that she needs remove an "enemy of the relationship", she has yet to give me a straight answer. This Enemy is the person who got WW and OM1 together (the first cheating). Enemy made the introduction for OM1 and WW when WW and I were fighting. The enemy provided the safe haven for WW and OM1 to meet. The lack of trust continued to reverberate until now when I felt the need to count the # of condoms we had before she stayed over night somewhere. But she doesn't feel like it is owed to me to ditch her 1 "friend".

When I first said that the enemy needs to go, I was met with great resistance. Explanations on how she already talked to the enemy about how she is to help WW only to support the marriage. How the enemy can be a friend of the marriage now. The enemy has always been a trigger for me of the OM1 affair, but I rugswept it for WW. I continued to be polite for the sake of WW because the enemy was a good friend of hers. And I am still rather upset WW has yet to commit to ridding this enemy of the relationship FOR ME and our relationship. That is the simple truth about how a lot of things go when making requests from WW.

Though to her credit, she has accepted some of the other tasks i have given her yesterday. Apology to BOW, Polygraph. She has done other tasks, but certainly the bigger tasks has always been met with resistance, Ex ditching a "friend".

[This message edited by ReceivedChaos at 3:13 PM, February 19th (Tuesday)]

RC, have you thought about what you would do if she doesn't fulfill your list? Or if she cheats again?

For the record: I do want to state that I was able to verify the phone# does indeed belong to BOW yesterday with the assistance of a friend. I had communicated to her via email and phone. It was through some little detail of story sharing that I was able to find out one of my wifes' lies. Stories did not align from OM2 and WW. I confronted her, only to realize the A lasted 5 years longer than she initially stated. Original story was Affair took place 6 years ago and ended 6 yrs ago.

Unfortunately, with every exposed lie, I felt like it was Dday all over again. In this case it felt like I had 3 Ddays because every lie made the affair worse that what was told to me.

nekonamida: Honestly I've thought about what would happen if she does it again, and simply/honestly put, I don't know.

Coincidentally/randomly, days before discover of the most current affair, I said is she cheats on me a 2nd time, I would leave. I was probably having some trust issues days before the stay over wedding, again as a result of the 1st cheating.

Which is why I do not know. I would love to believe that I would say screw it and file for divorce ASAP. But given my inability to even fathom the idea of divorce right now gives me doubt that I would leave her. I do hate that about myself.

Or I consider the possibility that I would just be so fed up of all the issues WW has with infidelity and our marriage that I would just leave her.

In terms of the tasks at hand. I told her if she did not drop the enemy of our relationship, I was just going to add that to the list of things she is not willing to do for me and our marriage. I am waiting to see how much that list needs to end up before I finally realize that she doesn't love me as much as I had hoped or that she doesn't want to save the marriage as much as I want. After all, I've been seeking effort from her since day one. Literally have been telling her that I want to see the effort. I see some here and there, but I haven't seen a complete commitment on her end.

[This message edited by ReceivedChaos at 4:08 PM, February 19th (Tuesday)]

Why do you want to stay in this marriage?

Are you happy?

If we could forget about the whole affair part of our relationship, I feel as if we are perfect for each other. She is the perfect half. We work great together. We have some great history. I am holding onto the happy times and hoping there will be more. I might be getting too optimistic. WW always put in the effort in her school and the work. I am really hoping that one day she puts in that kind of dedication to us/me. I have read that it might be my downfall, but it's what I currently believe.

I do want the marriage to work, but it I am waiting to see what the WW will do. And it is painfully not going as I had hoped. I believe if she really wants to change and does change, I believe I can be happy. That is what I am holding onto. I am painfully trying to accept that I can not change her, and how she thinks.

Had a discussion about removing said enemy of the relationship in depth. The best she could muster up was that she will not privately text or call her and not go out with just the 2 of them. They have commons friends, so the group chat they are all in and any group functions would means she would continue their friendship in that regard. WW barely appears to be phased by the fact that enemy assisted in destroying our relationship at the time. They did maintain their full friendship over the course of 13 years post cheating #1. She states she needs to take "baby steps" to get there. It sounds like: reduce contact with enemy now, hopefully I recover, then resume normal friendship as before once I am done recovering. Despite me trying to explain why that is not an option. Enemy has provided nothing beneficial to our relationship. Doesn't help that enemy is single (separated or divorced) and also polygamous. Even knowing how much it hurts with how WW responded to my request to remove toxic friend, she maintains her desire to maintain contact with the enemy of the relationship. Feels like her friendship is taking priority over myself and the marriage.

I apparently haven't met my tipping point from all the BS of me not being prioritize and WW not going "all in". Fortunately, with the articles here and from some thoughts from the forums, I am clarifying some of my thoughts into some kind of cohesive manner. And that might ultimately conclude that I do not take priority in my WW's life, I am not worth the effort, Our marriage is not worth it etc. I am just waiting to see how much more she cant hurt me before I can see there might be a toxic person in front of me that is not healthy for me to maintain any kind of relationship with. That I need to find someone with similar core values. Someone willing to go "all in" for me.

So far I am seeing someone who says they will do anything, then do nothing or the bare minimum. Someone who says they love me the most, but unwilling to make changes to her life. Someone who says I am the most important person in her life, but her actions never show it. I am afraid one day I will see that everyone here has been right all along and that I have been lying to myself that WW will change. But until then I'll hold onto what little hope I have left. I've decided to pursue IC in the interim.

With that said I'll keep reading and hoping get a better understanding on everything. Thanks folks.

[This message edited by ReceivedChaos at 6:40 PM, February 19th (Tuesday)]

If we could forget about the whole affair part of our relationship, I feel as if we are perfect for each other.

So if you could forget more than a third of your time together, including your entire marriage? You know how crazy that sounds, right?

Look, I'm with others here. Your WW, since coming here, has been consistently cagey about the details and highly defensive/avoidant when pressed about anything. I believe there's a great deal she's still withholding. I believe it's ridiculous to buy the story that over the course of five years with tons and tons of opportunity, there was no more sex. I also believe that she's only doing what she's doing out of a sense of shame, and not because she has any real love for you. I very much doubt she has the slightest understanding of what love is.

WW always put in the effort in her school and the work. I am really hoping that one day she puts in that kind of dedication to us/me. I have read that it might be my downfall, but it's what I currently believe.

This is not a hope worth hanging onto. She's your wife (on paper anyway). You should've been the recipient of the best of her effort since you became a committed couple, let alone a married one. Instead, she's done nothing but lie and cheat and cheat and lie and then cheat some more.

She's never been what you deserved, still isn't what you deserve, and has shown no willingness to become what you deserve. She's a waste of your time, your energy, and your love.

[This message edited by firenze at 7:20 PM, February 19th (Tuesday)]

If we could forget about the whole affair part of our relationship

The entirety of your marriage (she screwed a mutual friend shortly after the marriage, meaning she must have been building to that during your engagement, and she has kept in contact with him, or friends of the A, until today, lying and TT'ing you the entire time, and also leading you down the path of cockamamie thinking like there might be some grand gesture, a tattoo or something, that would enable you to just "get over it").

Most of your dating life.

So, what, you have few unburdened moments where there was a glimpse of authenticity? And you're considering building a life on that?

If we could forget about the whole affair part of our relationship, I feel as if we are perfect for each other. She is the perfect half. We work great together. We have some great history. I am holding onto the happy times and hoping there will be more. I might be getting too optimistic. WW always put in the effort in her school and the work. I am really hoping that one day she puts in that kind of dedication to us/me. I have read that it might be my downfall, but it's what I currently believe.

I hate to be blunt you will NEVER forget any of her A's, especially the very LONG LTA, I mean she's been cheating for almost your entire M, she's not even remorseful today and doesn't even want to do the basics, stop being her doormat, of course she needs to get rid of her "friend" who enabled and encouraged the A, and everyone who is not a friend of the M, no questions asked, if she's not willing to put your needs above anybody else after all the hurt she's caused then you have your answer, honestly your M has been a sham. Right now you're still living in infidelity and her thinking is still wayward, actions have consequences and she doesn't want to have any for her massive betrayal.

My honest suggestion is to RUN, A successful R is difficult even with a totally remorseful WW doing all the work and making the necessary sacrifices to make the BS feel safe, your WW is not even close to being remorseful, not by a loooong shot. But if you still think R is possible I think at this point you need to apply one of the tenants of SI that " you have to be willing to lose your M in order to save it", file for D without warning and have her served (you have to be willing to go through with it), D takes a long time and if she then comes around and shows true remorse, commits to NC FOREVER with OM's and all those who enabled/encouraged the A, offers full on demand access to all her electronic devices FOREVER, signs a postnup in your favor in case she cheats again (no alimony/child support and you keep your retirement/pension plan intact), commits to intense IC to find out her whys and to do the heavy lifting to restore the M, then and only then should you just CONSIDER giving her the gift of R, or NOT !!!, if she doesn't come around then just let D run its course, either way you get out of infidelity.

You have enough to make a decision, you don't have to wait and see if her actions will hurt you some more, she's hurt you long enough, for a VERY LONG time, stop pain shopping and lay down the "hopium pipe", it will get you nowhere, stop hoping and take action, you can't control her, you can only control YOU and your actions, the faster you take decisive action the faster you get out of infidelity and take control of your life.

Dropping friends who helped facilitate the affair is one of the most basic things a WS should do if they want reconciliation. That she's refusing to do this,and has had to be dragged though this process is very telling. Not wanting to give any details about her affair is starting to make sense. Coming here and saying she's willing to do anything, when she's really not done much at all, and highlighting a few of your requests, so it looks like you're off the rails, is also very telling. Had she done the simple things you asked of her early on,I'm betting a RA and a tattoo would never have even come up.

She's repeatedly shown you how she feels about you,the marriage,and what she's not willing to do. You are continuing to be abused by your wife.

You say you love her. Do you really? Or do you love the woman you thought she was? Because the woman she is, is ok with your pain. She's ok with painting you as this abusive,controlling man. She has been on here long enough to know the things you've asked of her are basic requirements for a WS wanting reconciliation,and she either refuses, or drags her feet. Or wants to compromise. To your detriment. She's not going to suddenly become the woman you need her to be. She's not going to save you. You need to save yourself.

[This message edited by HellFire at 8:04 AM, February 20th (Wednesday)]

There was a BH who posted on this site about how his WW was doing everything but wouldn't cut off the friend who helped her cheat. After quite some time in R, his WW went on a weekend conference and shared a hotel room with their enemy of the marriage (EOM). Everything was going fine when one morning the BH called his WW and asked about EOM only to realize that his WW was not in the same room as EOM despite it being very early in the morning. Well, it turns out that his WW's OM had flown in to spend the weekend with them and EOM was happy to lie and cover it up for the WW because EOM lived vicariously through his WW's A. The BH was monitoring his WW but she was able to talk to the OM through EOM so their R was ruined in part because of EOM. Keeping an EOM around during R is very risky.

If anyone remember the BH's username or a link to his story, please post it. I wish I could remember it or find it myself.

What is OP's WW's user name on SI?

CausedChaos

I continue to read your posts, RC, and I have 2 reactions.

On one hand, I wonder if you're looking for justice.

There is no justice here. There can be no justice wen infidelity is concerned, especially since you want to R. By that I mean: your W cannot be punished without adding to your pain.

Your best bet is to give up all hope of receiving justice. You either give true mercy or go through the pain of cutting her off (D) ... and in some ways giving her mercy even with D.

There is no Justice.

On the other hand, I wonder if you've set yourself up as the Victim in a set of many Drama Triangles. That won't solve your problem.

(For info on DTs, see karpmandramatriangle.com [citation OKed by Mod]; if Kaprman's style is too opaque for you, just search the we on 'drama triangle.')

An RA just switches you from Victim in a DT to Persecutor - but no matter which role you play, you ALWAYS lose when you're in a DT.

To heal, you need to get authentic. That means, among other things, feeling the pain and letting it go. That will allow you to think clearly about what you want, to see your W clearly, and to act in your best interests.

You might also consider the possibility that you're co-dependent. Adding items to lists but not changing ... that may be self-defeating just as co-d is self-defetaing.

I don't mean to diagnose you. Rather, I'm sharing my reactions in the hope of helping you get unstuck and, if possible in the hope that you'll share the ideas with a good IC.

[This message edited by sisoon at 12:51 PM, February 20th (Wednesday)]

I've decided to drop the whole RA at the moment. As I am feeling that a gesture, such as ridding the marriage of our 1 enemy of the marriage, would have made it felt great to have been given priority over all else. The enemy of the relationship is a good friend of WW. Even though she did not see this friend as an enemy prior, she sees the damaged she has assisted WW in with her first cheating. Unfortunately, WW has not made any decision regarding that. In fact it appears she is trying to compromise and ensure that she may remain friends with this person. And it hurts that she would not immediately choose me over said enemy of the relationship. I have made it abundantly clear how much it hurts me that she is trying to wiggle her way out of ridding this enemy. I make it known how amazing it would have been that she finally put me first over another individual. Again, I am met with disappointment. Even after 2 days of thinking, WW still has not given any definitive answer.

With that said, I do not need the reminder of why I should Divorce WW. I am very well aware of her short comings and rather unfavorable personality traits. I WILL MAKE THE DECISION WHEN I AM READY.

With that said, I am seeking additional ideas or "out of the box" ideas of what can be done for now.

WW started writing a letter to OBS, but is not sent.

We have polygraph info. Just need to schedule and I need to come up with questions etc.

It was requested that WW write a letter to her family to expose her lies and the pain she has brought into our home so that people will understand what we are going through and possible changes in the future. WW has yet to start that letter.

Again, looking for additional ideas here. I would request constructive ideas leaning towards the goal I am seeking or don't post at all. But I know this is the internet and people seldomly listen.

[This message edited by ReceivedChaos at 6:23 PM, February 20th (Wednesday)]

Maybe you should wait for the results of the polygraph before you add/subtract/alter things on your list.

Your list may expand or the list may end up in the garbage

[This message edited by 66charger at 2:42 PM, February 20th (Wednesday)]

Who is this "BOW?"

On here, the B stands for betrayed, and OW stands for Other Woman. As in an AP..affair partner.

I think you mean the OBS..other betrayed spouse, but I wanted to ask for clarification.

Does OBS know about the affair? What is the purpose of the letter?

I was going to ask why she is trying to compromise...but I think it's because you have given her several reconciliation requirements, she has refused, and you back down..which led to the RA request and the tattoo request. She knows you're not going to actually require her to honor your requests, so she's not too motivated to do them.

What actual consequences has she really had?

[This message edited by HellFire at 3:06 PM, February 20th (Wednesday)]

Sorry yes, I meant to say OBS then. These acronyms are confusing me a bit here.

I know that I hated the idea that OM2 could be sitting in his home with some smug face smiling about the good times he had with my WW with no real consequence to him. The OBS was very open to moving past the affair stuff hen I spoke with her on the phone and via e-mail. She did not want any details at all. I on the other hand had to know everything. I texted him his year reminding him of what he did to me and our family. In response he apologized. I do not know how sincere, but I hope it was. If so I can move on little easier knowing he's not there smiling with a smug look on his face. I am hoping OBS feels the same knowing that WW is extremely sorry for what she has brought upon this other family.

She doesn't really have any consequences. Really I was hoping (I know I say this a lot now) that she would just be motivated enough to help me recover, heal, and give me some sense of security. The only real consequence I would fathom would be a separation or divorce.

And really I wanted her to choose me over her friendship, who that person knowingly sabotaged our relationship at the time. WW has both an EA and PA with OM1 where she wasn't sure who she would have stayed with. OM2 was apparently mostly an NSA PA according to WW and she never wanted a life outside of what they were doing apparently.

I do wonder is it so unreasonable to request that this enemy of the relationship needs to go? This occurred 15 years ago. I still think about it every time I see this person. I do not socialize with her. Only my WW does. He has not contributed anything positive or negative to our relationship at this point, short of the initial harboring and introducing the WW to OM1.

[This message edited by ReceivedChaos at 4:10 PM, February 20th (Wednesday)]