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You may also consider telling her family with her now while you're there. My WS coming clean to her parents was a helpful part of our R process and helped get her out of her fog.

It would burst the fantasy bubble. Family can be a support. Stop pretending it's just all happy times and be real. Something to consider.

You've read some books about your situation. There is nothing about Esther Perel I would recommend. Two books I do recommend are "How To Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair" by Linda J. McDonald and "NOT Just Friends" by Shirley Glass.

A necessary component for a successful R is openness and honesty. That includes full disclosure of "that day" and includes a timeline as has been suggested above.

I sounds very much to me like your WW just wants you to rugsweep all of this. After all, in her mind, you're now even. You cheated, she cheated. Let's now move on.

It sounds like you tried to get her to communicate with you while you were working 2 jobs but she refused. If I understand you correctly you asked her to go to counselling with you during that time, too. It was then she hooked up with the neighbor.

If it was an exit affair why didn't she leave? She probably changed her mind. I think my WW thought she was having an exit affair while she was all starry-eyed and in lurve before they had sex. It was right after the first sex she told her IC (who didn't know she was cheating) that she was staying in the marriage. I think the first sex made reality strike and she didn't want life with him but having him as a side piece was rewarding.

It sounds like you WW kept in touch with this "nice" (my WW's AP was physically attractive and nice to her) neighbor so she continued to get something out of whatever they were doing.

I very much question that "it was just once" and "she stopped half way through". Common statements. Have you considered adding takin a polygraph to your list of requirements?

You've read 3 books. How many has she read?

You are prepared to go to counseling for your issues. She obviously has issues too but isn't prepared to go to counseling.

When you want to talk about and process her PA, she won't and says she has talked about it enough.

When you were separated you dated another woman. While you were married and together she F'd another man and lied to you every day about it for a year.

She doesn't seem particularly remorseful to me. Nor does she really qualify as good reconciliation material. If you don't have kids, why are holding on to this obviously broken and lopsided relationship?

I don't know if I would be ok telling her family. I don't think it is actually any of their business how are relationship is going. I think we protect our families from this because we both see their current situations and don't want them to worry any more than they already with life.

I have asked her a while ago if she thinks maybe we should just tell our families and be honest, that was my suggestion but it made more sense to not. I don't know. I don't know what to think about it.

We are reading the books together. We are marking thoughts and parts with highligheters and highlights on ebooks. We then go over them together and talk about it and ask questions but i can see that it just isnt enough. There is a huge lack of communication. Something i have been asking for, for a very long time.

So right now, I am trying to understand if this was actual revenge or if it was an actual relationship. She told me several times she did it for revenge. I am also trying to figure out what type of person does this shit. Vengeful? Vindictive? Spiteful? I also don't know what remorse looks or sounds like from her. I remember how terrible I felt and I remember doing everything I could to save it and I just don't get that feeling from her.

Why am I holding on to this? Because she changed my life drastically from the start, she stuck with me throughout my time in the military, and up until this, she was honest and loyal. But now I don't even know who she is.

I want to understand if this type of person is even right in their head. If she did it out of revenge, why wouldn't she dod it again? This is just so f'd up.

I have looked up the 180 and will continue to dig around the library.

I appreciate everyone's input. I'm glad there is a support channel for this.

Are you both in counseling or in Marriage counseling together?

If you both are committed to working in your marriage and you want to be together then working with a professional may be the best thing right now.

Niether of us are in counseling right now. I started to go to counseling back in March,2 months before i found out about her Betrayal. I was going to make sure my head is in the right spot fo the scale-up of my company and to make sure i was mentally right for the influx of funds i would be getting.

Then I found out about her betrayal and our diggin around my mind turned into the opening of flood gates. I continued to go to counseling up until i went out of town. I am trying to find someone who i can talk to inside the VA Network. I dont know. I need someone to talk to because i don't have anybody to talk to, and all this is swimming around in my head.

Going to be blunt here. If she is refusing to talk about her A then she is stonewalling you and not allowing you to process the events in your mind so you can heal. Any form of stonewalling is a dagger in any attempt to R. Sorry.

Right now, there is zero hope for reconciliation because your wife is not remorseful. One day, that could change and you can reassess if that Day comes. In the meantime, file for divorce, work out the finances (and child custody of you have kids), get back into counseling, and work on you and your healing. Don't worry about her or fixing her. That is her responsibility alone.

If you aren't ready yet to file for divorce, then go as NC as you can, detach, and work on yourself and your healing. Remember, though, that the divorce process can take a minimum of 2 months, for me it was 11. Until the judge signs it, you can always pull it if she should become remorseful. You can even reconcile after divorce. Until you start loving forward without any expectations from her, you will just be spinning your wheels.

Regardless of your EA, she had choices. I chose to divorce my cheater after he broke NC with his mistress. It never even occurred to me to have my own affair. Part of reconciliation should be she get into therapy to fix what's broken I side of her. Something is very clearly messed up in her. Not excusing your past actions, but you can't fix her and she can't fix you.

Sometimes I think that no matter what a WS does to heal the marriage it's not considered enough by the BS. I have noticed that most BS is constantly looking for the BS to do something more that that will automatically make things right. Healing a marriage after infidelity is something that takes years, not days or months. I would say do as much as she does but not more. It takes two to heal from this. When I was a young sergeant an old sergeant gave me this advice. ----Some battles you can win and some you can't. A smart soldier picks the ones he can win. I do wish you well.

Maybe ive missed this, but how much work did you do on yourself following your EA/dating? Did your wife know you were doing this? Was she doing the same? Was it discussed before you left, or did it all come as a big surprise to her? Because you just dont date someone else if you're married, unless its a mutually agreed on arrangement. Was it?

It doesnt sound as if all the issues were cleared up from this, and I dont think you are doing yourself any favours by completely focusing on her subsequent A. One of the isdues about an A, EA or otherwise, is that all of the details rarely come to light. The WS often minimises, denies, and has to be forced to give any information at all. If this was the case for your wife, I can understand how she would have struggled for so long, then just given in and looked for comfort elsewhere, justifying it because you had already had an A, which could well have been P for all she knows.

You seem very put out and understandably upset that she has now had an A. But you can't blame her for looking for support elsewhere when you did exactly that, beforehand.

She isn't refusing to talk about the whole affair. She was refusing to answer any more questions than the ones I had already asked about the day she cheated on me. Most of my questions at the time were investigative questions about the details of how things happen. The disgusting stuff.

We had an agreement to wait until we got back home together to talk about why. I believe she is going to be willing to talk about it. I read a little about being remorseful and I just don't know what to expect.

Justgetitoverwith* When she told me she was going to leave me after the last time I betrayed her trust, I turned my life completely around and became transparent with my thoughts and feelings, tried to communicate my concerns and just tried to be completely open about my affair. Even today, or 20 years from now I would tell her anything she wanted to know about the affair. I told her this and she said she doesn't want to know anything thought when I ask questions she asks me question about my affair.

To be transparent here, I was a terrible person to her when I had the affair. I refused to answer questions. I wasn't open enough about it. I was on defense because we both can barely communicate without a misunderstanding or being angry. During the time I was refusing I was defensive and always being attacked about my betrayal. She never had the proper healing from my betrayal. She has resentment and probably felt neglected when she started talking to this person.

I was no saint in this relationship. I was a terrible husband for many years before this. He emotions were numb and I destroyed her self esteem. I was an alcoholic and thought the bottle would drown my memories and PTSD. The military didn't help me get back into civilian life and when I left my unit, I got a pat on the back and thanks for your service, Literally.

I don't blame her for going elsewhere for support. I blame her that she didn't try to communicate anything to me before she did. I blame her to have intercourse and oral sex with someone I didn't like. I blame her for doing this with the intention of hurting me.

"I got revenge and payback for when you hurt me. I wanted you to feel the pain just once so you never do this again" - WS

One of the hardest things to deal with is just that. Her affair was premeditated. Thought out and through to intentionally bring me emotional trauma. Before this, she was the most loyal girl I have ever known. Boy am I a fool. Is that a person who you could move forward with? Someone who intentionally hurt you?

When she told me she was going to leave me after the last time I betrayed her trust, I turned my life completely around and became transparent with my thoughts and feelings, tried to communicate my concerns and just tried to be completely open about my affair.

I believe you.

The work you did doesn't mean your W has to offer you R. And if she does offer you R, she gets to make the offer on her terms, and you get to decide to accept or reject them.

You are the prime beneficiary of 'getting straight.' The work you did only allows you to ask for what you want. It doesn't guarantee you'll get it.

One of the hardest things to deal with is just that. Her affair was premeditated. Thought out and through to intentionally bring me emotional trauma. Before this, she was the most loyal girl I have ever known. Boy am I a fool. Is that a person who you could move forward with? Someone who intentionally hurt you?

That's one of the things almost every BS laments.

I very much oppose RAs, but your W conducted one. Now you have to heal as a BS. You are faced with many choices. They are yours to make.

I can't help saying, however, that I'm very uncomfortable with this complaint from a madhatter.

Do you think you deserve some points for not intending to hurt your W? That doesn't make sense to me at all. In fact, I could argue that what you did was worse than intending to hurt your w - you lied to yourself in believing that you wouldn't hurt her, because you knew that she'd be hurt if she knew about your cheating.

But comparisons don't really work where recovering from infidelity is the problem.

You cheated; therefore, you need to heal as a WS. You need to change from cheater to good partner.

You've been cheated on; therefore you eed to heal as a BS. You need to process the anger, grief, fear, and shame our of your body. You need to decide between D & R. You need to act to achieve the resolution you want.

I'm not saying you need to decide and act immediately. You get to set your timetable. Your W gets to set hers. I urge that you both seek the best resolution, which probably isn't going to be a not a quick one.

You express yourself as if you are the only victim in this situation. Here is what I got from your story. Yes she is to blame for the PA she had. On the other side of the coin you are to blame for moving out and having an EA. As stated by someone else, many women consider an EA more destructive than a PA. You say you are hurt because her affair was premediated. You moving out and moving in with another woman and your EA was just as premediated and just as hurtful to her. You said that she could have talked to you about getting support from someone else before she did so. The same way you didn't talk to her before you got support from someone else. She appears to be trying and you appear to be looking for more. It's like two people where one says "I broke my leg and it hurts real bad." And the other says, "Well I broke both my legs and it hurts twice as bad." This next is not intended to cause you hurt. It's just my observation. If you parted and divorced my money would be on her getting over it and moving on while you would be stuck in the same place you are now. I understand a little about PTSD as I saw it during my military career. One thing I did notice was that PTSD seems to keep the victim in one mind set that plays over and over. Try not to let this happen to you. I do wish you well.

[This message edited by anoldlion at 1:49 PM, July 21st (Sunday)]

I don't look at this as a points game. I look at it as two different situations with the same outcome. When I betrayed my wife, I move out of our house into my parent's house because I was unhappy. I didn't move in with someone else. I befriended someone who made me feel like life was ok. not a moment of intimacy or sexual interest because it is just not something would be ok doing. It is just not me. Thought I did not intend to hurt her, I know I did. I saw it. I felt it and I lived it with her.

I express myself as a victim but not the only victim. As mentioned before, I didn't move in with someone else. I mentioned she could have talked to me first. I have been telling her I need her to communicate to since the beginning. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I guess I am here not looking for answers but to express my misunderstandings and get a much more clear head on my shoulders before I approach this conversation that is supposed to happen over the next two days.

I don't blame her for going elsewhere for support. I blame her that she didn't try to communicate anything to me before she did

No, and neither did you communicate to her before you behaved inappropriately While still in your marriage. You cant expect any more from her than you did yourself. Your situation may be different to her A, but it still involved wayward behavior which had no place in a marriage, you are not helping yourself by constantly making out that what she did was worse. Some ppl are more betrayed by EA than functional sex. Its all a betrayal.

Just being transparent and open about your EA does not fix the issues which led to it. Your words here seem to imply that your EA and associated issues were dealt with and are irrelevant here, but you don't mention the work you have done, so they are resurfacing again now, and you are greatly offended that your wife has now looked for validation elsewhere because of it. As anoldlion said, you are portraying yourself as the victim, but you made your wife the victim first, and I dont think either of you recovered from this. Much IC required on both sides, probably.

"I got revenge and payback for when you hurt me. I wanted you to feel the pain just once so you never do this again" - WS

There is no justification for infidelity.

That includes a "revenge" affair. I've read from more members than I could possibly remember who have either thought about or actually had a "revenge" affair. Revenge is not a justification for infidelity. It's a shitty excuse for shitty behavior.

Infidelity is self-destructive. The first person a wayward betrays is himself. Infidelity is a choice based upon a life-time of bad coping mechanisms and poor decision-making. I'd imagine that you probably understand this already. Your WW, on the other hand, doesn't. She had other options. She could have made better, healthier choices. Instead, she chose an extremely childish approach, because, I'd imagine, she never developed healthy coping mechanisms and never understood that she has a choice in how she reacts to other peoples' crap.

In other words, her decision to have an affair is 100% on her and her alone. Blame-shifting is extremely common, but it doesn't justify infidelity.

[This message edited by Unhinged at 9:50 AM, July 22nd (Monday)]

I suggest there's no benefit to you in comparing your A to your W's. I urge you to focus on what counts:

As a BS, IMO you need to process your anger, grief, fear, and shame.

As a WS, you need to change from betrayer to good partner.

These tasks cannot be done by anyone but you. They need to be doe for you to heal, to recover from betraying and being betrayed. They do not depend on your W - she can support you or slow you down, but you can heal irrespective of what she does. And you can heal whether you D or R. You can even start healing before you decide to D or R.