SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I would rather be thought of as an immoral asshole versus a weak man standing beside a cheating woman.

Boy, that sounds like the motivation for many (most?) RAs in a very well-stated nutshell.

I submit that the problem here is placing too much weight on appearances and not enough on reality. What matters is what and how one does something, not on how others will view it.

Certainly it's possible to stay with a WS out of weakness, but it's also possible to stay from strength. One way to tell which is to consider the demands for change placed on the WS - a weak person doesn't make heavy demands and impose real consequences if the demands aren't satisfied. A strong BS does.

And I fully expect that the less outsiders are part of the equation, the more complete healing will be.

[This message edited by sisoon at 10:06 AM, December 27th (Friday)]

Once you allow any type of justification for cheating as opposed to divorce, you are Wayward. Wayward thinking is avoidant, focused on appearing one way while acting another, using mental gymnastics to justify that which one previously did not approve of, perceived powerlessness over personal happiness rather than autonomously empowered to make strong decisions, perceptions of victimhood and self-pity, and an "I deserve it!" emotional acting out. Those are exactly the thoughts of a cheater whenever it takes place in an M. Revenge affairs are simply affairs. Outsiders see no difference and make the same comment to any and all cheaters: "Why didn't you just divorce?" Exactly. Weakness, just like all cheaters are weak.

Eta: And for the record, there is nobody that will condone an RA, even when you walk around explaining how justified you are. Because when you walk away, people say, "Man, he is so messed up. The dude won't walk away from the nightmare M, he'll just run around looking like a messed up, no self-respect Jerry Springer guest instead! Those two deserve each other! Which one can get an STD faster? Lol!" And everyone laughs and laughs while they shake their heads. RAs are only justifiable in a cheater's mind, just like all other cheaters and justifications.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 10:30 AM, December 27th (Friday)]

I agree that RAs are bad decisions that come from unhealthy places. I don't think they're anything like the original affair, especially if they're in the DDay aftermath. I guess in my mind, what exactly are you cheating on? I don't recall enough coherent thinking on DDay to say whether I gave this any real thought or not, but I know that my internal feeling was that my marriage had ended. The stupid RA was the only reason I wound up staying. I woke up the next day talking to him about who was staying in the house and who was leaving and only the horror of what I'd done the day before and his breakdown at me leaving had me stay for that moment. I just knew when I found out that he'd cheated that there wasn't a marriage anymore and it was all over but the paperwork. I fucked myself up so much with my DDay breakdown that I wound up staying for a time. I regret both the RA and the staying.

As for it making you feel stronger to have had an RA, I guess I get that to a point, but we're still the people our spouses made fools of for days/weeks/months/years. We're still the ones who hugged and kissed them when they got home from fucking someone else. We're the ones who sent them loving texts while they were with someone else. We're the ones who sat comfortably beside them watching TV while they texted someone else. An RA doesn't erase that. It doesn't erase anything. It didn't make me not a fool. I don't care about the pain of the original wayward so much when he or she finds out about the RA, because that's a "can dish it out but not take it" kind of thing, but I do care about the BS and how it tends to affect us negatively most of the time.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 10:28 AM, December 27th (Friday)]

Once you allow any type of justification for cheating as opposed to divorce, you are Wayward. Wayward thinking is avoidant, focused on appearing one way while acting another, using mental gymnastics to justify that which one previous did not approve of, perceived powerlessness over personal happiness rather than autonomously empowered to make strong decisions, perceptions of victimhood and self-pity, and an "I deserve it!" emotional acting out. Those are exactly the thoughts of a cheater whenever it takes place in an M. Revenge affairs are simply affairs. Outsiders see no difference and make the same comment to any and all cheaters: "Why didn't you just divorce?" Exactly. Weakness, just like all cheaters are weak.

To be fair, though, it's not all black and white. There's a quantitative difference between "She pays the kids too much attention and I feel neglected" or "my mommy wasn't nice to me as a child and this kind woman I married must pay" and "I came home to find her fucking my best friend in my bed" as reasons for sleeping with another person.

I'm not saying it's great to have an RA and I don't recommend one, but I can never in a million years justify making them equal offenses.

I guess in my mind, what exactly are you cheating on?

If it's now an open marriage, nothing. If you are divorcing, nothing. If you are married, your marriage. It's pretty basic.

I mean, why do those having RAs not divorce? Any answer is wayward, because all of the original cheaters have answers too.

It's a matter of opinion.

There is nobody who knows about my RA that didn't look at me as a dysfunctional cheater. Nobody. I could see the loss of respect on their faces. They just did not give a rat's ass what my H had done. I could see that it looked like "Blah, blah, blah" to them. They saw/see me as an untrustworthy, disloyal person. There's no changing that. It's humiliating.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 10:36 AM, December 27th (Friday)]

Here's a question:

Would you date someone who had an RA?

I'm not saying it's great to have an RA and I don't recommend one, but I can never in a million years justify making them equal offenses.

An affair is an affair. If the spouse in the original affair based their choice to have an affair based on how they felt the other spouse was or wasn't treating them...how is that any different than having a RA based on how the WS treated them.

Once we give one a higher moral equivalency we are admitting that some affairs are ok, while others are not.

Sorry, I see both as an unjustifiable affair.

Would you date someone who had an RA?

I would not. I would assume this person is immature and likely to seek revenge in many other situations. I don't want to deal with their emotional instability.

[This message edited by 36yearsgone at 11:06 AM, December 27th (Friday)]

If it's now an open marriage, nothing. If you are divorcing, nothing. If you are married, your marriage. It's pretty basic.

I mean, why do those having RAs not divorce? Any answer is wayward, because all of the original cheaters have answers too.

It's a matter of opinion.

There is nobody who knows about my RA that didn't look at me as a dysfunctional cheater. Nobody. I could see the loss of respect on their faces. They just did not give a rat's ass what my H had done. I could see that it looked like "Blah, blah, blah" to them. They saw/see me as an untrustworthy, disloyal person. There's no changing that. It's humiliating.

The thing is, it apparently had been an open marriage. Clearly. For one of us, at least. I hadn't been informed, but it was quite obvious that he had been taking extreme advantage of it being open on his side. I had not been in a monogamous marriage, though I had believed it to be so.

For me personally, I didn't have a well-thought-out RA plan. I lost my shit. I literally left the house and fucked a stranger hours after discovery. I am personally still appalled by my reaction. I wouldn't have done so under other circumstances. I wouldn't have cheated on my husband for the world. I would have died before handing him that pain and it wasn't in my moral code to do so. I can't entirely explain what I did on DDay, though I have some clues. What I knew was that divorce was obviously what would happen because I didn't actually have a marriage. I apparently hadn't had a marriage. So yes, had I not had whatever crazy breakdown I had on DDay, I would absolutely have just divorced.

I still stand by it not being so black and white, though. I don't judge you equally harshly for having an RA as I do your WH for originally cheating on you. People who have RAs are not in the right, but they are not in the same ballpark to me.

So yes, I would likely date someone who had an RA, but I'd like to know the story behind it. It would depend on the circumstances.

In my case, the original cheating was a man sleeping with prostitutes and trying to hook up with other women while portraying that he was utterly devoted to me and knew I loved him immensely. He had a sexually adventurous wife at home with a high libido who thought he was the hottest thing on two legs. He had an affectionate and loving wife with a matching sense of humor to laugh with. He had a wife he had all kinds of things in common with. A nice home, great family, even had awesome dogs. He had a woman who had his back at all times. This is what he cheated on. I "cheated" on a guy who fucked a number of prostitutes while married to me and turned into a drug addict in the process. I do not absolve myself for bad decision making, but I don't feel like a cheater. Maybe you disagree, maybe lots of people disagree. I look back at me on DDay and see a woman who would have been as happy for that stranger to stab her to death as to have sex with her because she no longer knew who anyone was, much less herself and the world was a twisted and ugly place. Where the man who loved her the most had been a mirage all along.

We can wax poetic about the mental anguish that led my poor XWH to go behind my back and fuck prostitutes and try to fuck anyone else who might be interested for free and bring me HPV (luckily, only that), but that conversation doesn't interest me much anymore.

An affair is an affair. If the spouse in the original affair based their choice to have an affair based on how they felt the other spouse was or wasn't treating them...how is that any different than having a RA based on how the WS treated them.

In the same way that murder is murder? A teenage girl shoots her dad because she's tired of him raping her vs dude shoots a stranger because watching someone die gets him off. Same crime, same time?

Outsiders see no difference and make the same comment to any and all cheaters: "Why didn't you just divorce?"

I have found this to be somewhat true in my own marriage pre-divorce. My H didn’t exactly have an RA but he sort of did. Close friends excused him because we were separated. There were acquaintances, however, who made the comment when we got back together after our divorce that we deserve each other because we “both cheated on each other.” Again, not strictly true, but outsiders don’t make much of a distinction sometimes when either spouse has sex with someone else while still married.

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 11:17 AM, December 27th (Friday)]

In the same way that murder is murder? A teenage girl shoots her dad because she's tired of him raping her vs dude shoots a stranger because watching someone die gets him off. Same crime, same time?

That's exactly how I saw my RA as well DevastatedDee. I cannot even compare the A's my STBX had vs. my own. They are starkly different as well as our issues. Mine being CoD and my STBX being NPD. The aftermaths were starkly different too. One of us actually worked on ourselves to get better and had hope for the M getting better. The other had no remorse, continued A's, and destroyed the M at all costs.

In the same way that murder is murder? A teenage girl shoots her dad because she's tired of him raping her vs dude shoots a stranger because watching someone die gets him off. Same crime, same time?

I would sympathize with the teenage girl. But, unless she did the killing while being raped ar while the dad was attempting to rape her, she would likely be charged with murder in the 1st or 2nd degree.

We can play the moral equivalency game and the "What ifs?" all day, but for me it comes down to something very simple:

You don't cheat while married. An affair is an affair.

I realize it isn't this black and white for everybody. I also realize that people will justify it as a response to getting hurt by their spouse. But it isn't the same as punching someone who is punching you.

[This message edited by 36yearsgone at 11:33 AM, December 27th (Friday)]

I think that this is just one of those issues that lots of us will differ on.

I do agree with the thread title for sure.

I think that this is just one of those issues that lots of us will differ on.

I agree with that sentiment and that is why I couch my responses as my opinion.

This isn't my thread, but it sure has made me think.

Hiking, I spent a bunch of time in therapy, the whole works - CBT, EMDR and others. I focused on the betrayal recovery and stuff from my childhood (mostly abandonment issues). The big but is I didn't really focus on what I did. I think I do need to look into that some. Thanks for your insight. I appreciate your input too OIN and sisoon.

36yearsgone, I can tell this is a major issue for you yet you still can listen to other opinions and see their perspective without getting butt hurt to the point of lashing out. That's rare nowadays and I tip my hat to you sir. I truly wish none of this would have happened in my marriage. I wish my WW would have approached me before cheating. I wish I would have conducted myself differently. The RA likely caused as many problems as it "fixed".

Dee, I agree with everything you've written. You've posted exactly how I feel too.

I think the whole MH and RA thing scares the hell out of people here. Waywards are terrified they will get a taste of their own medicine and they can't bitch too much about it because they set the whole show in motion. They also understand exactly what happens in an A. It looks like most betrayed spouses think about an RA and that's scary to become what has caused you so much pain. It's also frightening to see how easy it is to give yourself permission to do something so wrong and that gives you a bit of insight into your WS's cheating. I always wonder about the motivation behind these threads. 36yg obviously isn't planning an RA, he didn't have an RA, his WW's A wasn't an RA, it would seem RAs wouldn't be on your radar. Yet you start a thread blasting them. Why?

I had horrible anger issues during the time I started the RA. I was 100% stupidly faithful during my M. I loved my WW very much. I heard the "I don't love you speech", I had the OBS coming over to my house almost daily. The biggest thing though was the realization that this love I had for her was something I had concocted in my head. I realized I manufactured my perception of her and I couldn't have been more wrong. The woman I was so in love with didn't exist. I started to think love was merely some dopamine\oxytocin cocktail in my mind that was fleeting and foolish. That was a huge mindfuck for me. My WW had empathy and trickle truth issues that didn't help either.

I had an old girlfriend\FWB that would email me 4-5 times a year to catch up. I stupidly thought this relationship was a friendship only thing and I certainly kept it that way. I typically talked about my family or job, never flirted or gave any indication of romantic interest. I gave her the rundown about WW's cheating in one of these emails and she suggested we meet for coffee. It rapidly progressed from there.

I think the biggest difference in the A and RA is the justification process. My WW handed me most (if not all) of the issues that led to my cheating. She lied to me, manipulated me, told me she didn't love me, she was cold to me, she had empathy issues, so she could easy her guilt about having unprotected sex with another man. She didn't have rage issues, or other insecurities handed to her by her spouse. She made the choice to cheat when our M really wasn't that bad (she has said this 100s of times). Her justification was I didn't give her enough attention. She had to go to some pretty fucked up places to make that thought fit her narrative. She let petty resentments fuel her decision. I'm sure most of you BSes heard lines from the same script. I also stupidly let a crappy MC facilitate blameshifting and my WW ate that shit up.

I, on the other hand, didn't ask to have this shit heaped upon me. She made that choice. I didn't want to be married to a woman that would whore herself out for attention. My WW made me feel like complete shit blaming me for her A. I can't begin to tell you all how damn angry I was either. I wasn't in love with my WW, hell I felt like I didn't even know her. I was grieving what I had lost too. You guys know the grief, it sucks. I had no sexual desire for my WW post cheating. Sex was now a chore for me and I avoided it whenever possible. I had a very difficult time finishing. So when an attractive woman expressed interest in me, it was like a cool drink of water on a hot summer day. In the past, I would have blown off the flirting or innuendo, but I chose poorly this time. It's made R much harder for us. Ww knew before the RA started what was happening because I told her. She still had agency. She could have chosen to leave. I had no such choice prior to her A.

I am not saying I have the answers. I'm not an expert in infidelity recovery. I'm just some poor sap whose wife cheated and then I handled it like complete shit. RAs are not good. I think the time and energy poured into them are better spent pursuing divorce.

36yearsgone, I can tell this is a major issue for you yet you still can listen to other opinions and see their perspective without getting butt hurt to the point of lashing out. That's rare nowadays and I tip my hat to you sir. I truly wish none of this would have happened in my marriage. I wish my WW would have approached me before cheating. I wish I would have conducted myself differently. The RA likely caused as many problems as it "fixed".

Buck:

We are all at different stages in the aftermath of infidelity. One of the things I so appreciate about SI, is that the high percentage of members here actually care. They not only care buyt they can identify with the pain of those who've been betrayed. They also can empathize with some of the choices we make.

Affairs have a terrible impact on a BS. But, what I have been coming to grips with is the fact that I don't have to allow the affair to change who I truly am at my core. I've internally fought against that desire as I've wallowed in the mire created by my WW and her despicable choice in human dung.

I can't have a Revenge Affair because it would rattle who I really am deep inside. But don't think I haven't thought about it. I have. I've also wondered if I could date someone else since we're (my WW) not living together. But, I can't do that either. I may die alone, but with character intact.

I never cheated abs i had a lot of opportunities. However. I have come to realize that my ex never gave a shit about me and if I had fucked another guy before we broke up, that would have devastated him, though not as much as his actions devastated me. As it stands, he hurt me badly and the only consequence for him has been that everyone I know hates him.

I never wanted another guy from almost the time we met, so hooking up with someone else was not on my radar.

But if I had, I would not have had one ounce of regret.

That being said if we were gonna stay together, sleeping with someone else would have made things complicated. I would have felt shame. OTH, if I had stayed and not hooked up with someone else, the unfairness would have eaten at me.

Ive noticed a few people who stay sith their cheating spouse and the unfairness seems to eat at them - this seems to be a thing for a few people, mostly BHs. At the same time, those who fucked another person seem very ashamed.

So for some people, it is a no win situation.

I think that if the unfairness of your spouse fucking someone else is eating at you, sleep8ng with someone else may be the only way to feel ok staying with the spouse. And then, the guilt and shame might make fixing things really hard.

Ive noticed a few people who stay sith their cheating spouse and the unfairness seems to eat at them - this seems to be a thing for a few people, mostly BHs. At the same time, those who fucked another person seem very ashamed.

So for some people, it is a no win situation.

I've seen some regret, but I haven't seen much in the way of shame.

I think that if the unfairness of your spouse fucking someone else is eating at you, sleep8ng with someone else may be the only way to feel ok staying with the spouse. And then, the guilt and shame might make fixing things really hard.

Let's look at revenge affairs using a metaphor. Let's say that my wife and I own some very expensive antiques and China (the marriage). One day, my wife goes a bit nuts and starts to destroy these possessions (the affair). If I want to get even, would it be best for me to also start destroying these precious items (Revenge Affair)?

A marriage is owned by the two parties who said there vows. As tempting as it might be to respond in kind when one party brings destruction to the relationship, it makes no logical sense to add to the destruction.

Once I realized that people looked down on me, even though I explained that my H was a cheating alcoholic, I knew that I had lost the moral high ground. And when I realized that I would steer clear of anyone from such a dysfunctional M who felt they had to revenge cheat (um, no. There's a thing called divorce) because their ex was so "awful," I knew that I had made the most ridiculously horrible choice, one that could never be undone.

I just became another Jerry Springer or Dr. Phil wacko living in a dysfunctional relationship, positive that life is about drama and payback and "Oh, no you didn't!" and what I deserve. "He did it first!" I become another person who handles emotional turmoil with a tantrum, bringing extra f-ing people into the sanctity of my family, letting them steal time and energy from my kids. I was just another classless, immature, no self-esteem juvenile brat. When I snapped out of my delusional dysfunction, I felt like a twelve year-old playing grown up dress up.

An RA earns you a seat on Dr. Phil's couch and many extra sessions of IC to figure out why you don't know your own worth the minute that the world hurts you. Emotional resilience is the name of the game in life, and RAs prove that you have none. When they go low, you go lower.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 9:00 PM, December 28th (Saturday)]