SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

It was the youngest kid moving out

Oddly enough, this is around where I’m planning to leave HIM...if I can make it that long.

(And yes, I have made reference to him to the fact that my only goal in life right now is to be as nice and pleasant to him as possible for the sake of raising our children. Since we have about a million years until my youngest graduates high school, I have doubts, but I will try.)

I remember when I use to plan to leave the marriage when the youngest one moved out. The youngest one turned 18, three years ago. When she turned 18, she moved out a few months after that, as soon as she graduated from highschool.

However, somewhere along the line, the relationship between me and my wife somehow changed for the better when I wasn't watching for it. She was different, I was different, things were better.

We both have had numerous opportunities and perhaps even a good cover reasons to end our relationship since.

Yet, it continues, one day at a time.

As for thinking that my BS owed me a chance for reconciliation...

As I recall, no, never occured to me I was owed a chance for reconciliation back then.

I currently don't believe I owe my BS a chance for reconciliation if I find out that she is a WW.

[This message edited by QuietDan at 9:18 PM, November 8th (Friday)]

Holy hell is the whole premise for this thread completely out of touch with reality.

You had your affair, and never then did R seem in any way impossible to you. If it did then it would have been impossible for you to do anything that goes the R route. You went for R, therefore it was completely certain in your mind that R is a possibility after an affair.

And then suddenly it is not a possibility if tye affair is not by you, but on you? That is the entitlement, and a seriously huge one.

I don’t know if you’re speaking directly to me, but I will assume so since I started the thread.

Please don’t presume to tell me what I knew or what I thought was possible or impossible.

I knew my husband would divorce me when he found out—I knew that before I started the affair. Sure enough, 6 1/2 months later on D-day, know what he said? “We have to get a divorce.” Know what we did a month later? Filed for divorce. There was no “going for R” until two years later, and that was because HE asked ME.

Furthermore, this thread is not about a WS being willing to R after their spouse’s RA. It is about whether THEY felt the right to expect R or demand it after THEIR A.

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 8:51 AM, November 9th (Saturday)]

I don't know the proper terms, but it would be 'you' as in, 'whoever is in the described situation, this is addressed to you'.

I do not acknowledge your fantasy that getting divorced first and getting back together at a later time is completely not the same thing as R though. You've lived your life as if it's possible to be partners with you despite you cheated on them. If you would doubt it's possible to be with someone because they cheated on you, obviously that would make you an entitled hypocrite. There is no way around that.

Furthermore, this thread is not about a WS being willing to R after their spouse’s RA. It is about whether THEY felt the right to expect R or demand it after THEIR A.

Really now? Because it looks to me that this was but the first part of your opening. And that the reason was asked was with BSs around being "surprised" when the WS don't tolerate a "RA" which I would rather call "applying the fact that the marriage was never exclusive after all despite how much you wish it was and had gotten promised it was"

I would wager that this "surprise" comes from the blatant hypocrisy I pointed our above.

The only reason I mentioned RA is because it is in those threads that BSs accuse us of being entitled to R in the first place. My premise was that’s not been my experience but as others have pointed out such posters, obviously I’ve missed them.

Not from the moment I started cheating did I live as though R were possible—certainly not after our divorce. The only reason we ever had occasion to even speak to each other again is because we work at the same place.

Okay then. But it really looks like how I took it.

Ok.

I read the OP as DF intended it to be read.

Early in our M, we discussed what we'd do in case of an A. We both thought an A would be because of a problem in our M, and that we could and would stay together if we agreed to fix the M and if the WS didn't want to stick with the ap. So for both of us, and A never meant D necessarily.

My W said she thought all through her A that I'd stay, until her night of decision (or maybe until the last days of the A) when she realized I might D.

She wanted to R from the start. She never could fully understand why I wanted to R, because of her self-hate. She was afraid I'd leave for a long time, and she thought the case for me to leave was overwhelming.

I wanted to R from the start. Our MC thought it was 50/50 whether I chose R or D, even though I wanted R.

I think the WSes who succeed at R want it and at some level feel entitled to it, but they leave their BSes free to make the choice they want to make.

I remember one WS who was going along with her H's plan to D, even though she wanted R. It took a long thread, IIRC, to get her to tell her H that she wanted R but wouldn't obstruct D. It turned out her H planned on D because he didn't realize his W wanted - and would do the necessary work for - R.

I guess my point is that wanting is different from doing. I wanted R, but if my W didn't do the necessary work, I do believe I'd have shown her the door. So I have no trouble with a WS wanting one outcome or another. And I have no problem with a BS wanting and doing something else.

[This message edited by sisoon at 3:13 PM, November 9th (Saturday)]

...felt entitled to reconciliation with your BS, or expected them to reconcile with you?

Many if not most of the threads about revenge affairs over my 9 1/2 years on SI have seemed to contain at least one BS who states that it’s odd that a WS would disagree with an RA or be unable to reconcile with their BS-turned-WS because they themselves (the original WS) feel entitled to, have an expectation of, or make a demand for, reconciliation after their own cheating.

In the aforementioned 9 1/2 years, I’ve never come across one such WS. Do any of y’all actually feel that way? That your BS “owes” you R?

In the time I've been a member of this site I've come to appreciate DF's posts for their candor. I may not often agree with her, but in the environment of dishonesty that is inherit to cheating I find her words refreshing.

I grew up in a FOO that's the stuff of nightmares, and thought I have finally found a safe space with my WS. Obviously I was mistaken - and in retrospect I was foolish to ever consider anyone safe. The pain of her LTA was ... well, if you've read some of the posts in JFO or General, you know. It wrecked me.

In that fragile state - emotionally bleeding out, I grasped and desperately hung on to our marriage. 18 years later, we're still together. But truthfully (to mimic DF) I must admit that reconciliation was a mistake, divorce would have been a better option. I would NOT have followed DF's example and remarry my WW - to me, in my marriage, that seems like drinking from the same bottle of poison and expecting better health the second time around.

In or out of infidelity, no one owes anyone anything.

After a marriage ceremony where both parties swear to remain faithful, there is an expectation that the contract will upheld, but when it isn't, it's null and void. Some may point to the other bullet items in the marriage contract, love, honor, etc., but these items are not as tangible as is fidelity. A spouse whose partner habitually works late and isn't around to do chores in the evening could arguably be said to not honor their spouse, but that's a matter of perspective and POV. Cheating though, is a black and white issue. IMO it should nullify the marriage. If the parties want a repeat performance in hopes of better results, sure, reconciliation via a new marriage is an option.

Forgiveness, if it comes at all, has to be earned.

[This message edited by nightmare01 at 4:53 PM, November 9th (Saturday)]

She never could fully understand why I wanted to R, because of her self-hate.

Yes. I think this would be how I felt for a long time, and still feel this way sometimes.

I mentioned in the other forum that I believe for R to be successful, the WS must have true humility, remorse, even guilt and shame have a place in all of it. (I say it that way, because at some point shame is something we are trying to heal, a partial catalyst for our affairs to have even begun).

I saw other BS agree, that their WS when the BS was being nice and showed grace, were acutely miserable because they felt it was undeserved. We want our marriages, we want for healing to occur, but when it happens it's hard to really fathom how my husband can move on from the affair. I can certainly see all the reasons, I as the WS would want to keep the marriage if at all possible, but the fact he does is a gift that I try and not question but can't completely understand. And, that has been a big catalyst for change for me, it's an inspiration when someone else is just good to the core to want to try and be that as well, both for myself and for him. That's why all these posts about RA's are baffling, I don't want to beat that dead horse in this thread, but I know those discussions also caused this thread.

The best revenge, or the best way to even our marriage was not for him to come down to my level, but for me to come up to his. And, that will be something I feel I am behind the 8 ball on for years to come, and that feeling will drive a lot of positive changes in me and our relationship.

the best way to even our marriage was not for him to come down to my level, but for me to come up to his.

This quote wins the entire topic, IMO. Good stuff.

my husband showed me what real love was and forgave me.

I expected him to leave and at first, thats what i wanted. He fought for us. I'm grateful.

SO GRATEFUL

I’m not sure I felt entitled to it, but I certainly tried to control it. Once it was a possibility, I didn’t want to lose it. Ironically that idea is exactly what put it in jeopardy.

I think this is the bigger problem than entitlement. BW STILL struggles to understand how I could continue to lie to her even as I thought I was working towards R. The ends don’t justify the means, and I think that lesson comes too slowly for most. It certainly was the case for me. I suppose you could extrapolate entitlement from that willingness to focus on self over the integrity and honesty but in doing so I think it supposes a level of intent that’s absent from most WSs.

DF,

I can only tell you that he said many times that he believed I’d never leave...that I didn’t have the guts. He said he felt bad for thinking that way but then went on to cheat again. To me, that speaks of entitlement and that he deserves R no matter what he does or how many times.

He’s wrong. Unfortunately, my kids are paying the price.

I think one of the biggest misconceptions of R is not that it happens....but in my mind, it is never concluded. My BH has chosen to stay with me. I do appreciate this immensely. But, I never believe we have achieved R.

My actions have created immense pain. We are together and we remain passionate, but there are always setbacks, hurdles and pain. For this reason, I never believe we have achieved R.

What I did was reckless, selfish, narrow and vindictive. There is no finish line...no R. Rather, it is a lifetime of recommitting...being a better person. I spent a lot of time engaged in fraud. If R means being together today and working for tomorrow...Yes! However, things are not the same as they were before. For a WS to think that things can be "better", you are not being honest with yourself and you do not understand the damage that you've caused.

R is acceptance and moving forward to me. You R with yourselves first. Then, your move on to a new marriage with honesty and vulnerability. If you really think about it the only thing there is to reconciliation is just that..acceptance. Acceptance can mean staying, going, and still making up your mind to see if it will work out depending upon how well the two of you can make it work. The rest is just a marriage if you choose to stay together. I don't mean to be flippant about it. I guess I just see things differently because the acceptance part is just a huge deal. Owning it for the WS.

I agree there isn’t a finish line. I have come to terms with that. But without the belief things can be better there is no hope. I think understanding the pain and damage you caused can be very different than having hope. Hope is what keeps people striving. H and I both believe things can get better, I am not sure we would be choosing this path without that shared vision.

I also think that way of thinking can lend itself to keep themselves permanently in a role of victim/abuser rather than a bs reclaiming their power and owning the idea that they want R and have the ability to heal, and he ws believing they worked to become a better person and found redemption in that. I am not saying H and I are there yet but without that vision, I don’t think we would be propelled forward as strongly.

As far as an RA, my BW would not do that. After the A's were discovered, she said, there's the door, if P1 is who you want to be with, don't let it hit you in the ass. I really did not expect R nor did I have any right to expect R. My jaw dropping realization ( and OMG! appreciation when she instituted HB) I was truly grateful for her grace in offering "R". I still try, I fail sometimes but I am still grateful I get to touch her bottom when I wake up in the morning.