SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Still feel shitty I guess..

as is often said here on SI - Trust your gut. But I still understand/agree with your main point - it could've been anyone. When you are selfish/broken/have no moral compass/etc ... anyone that feeds you ego kibbles will slip into the AP role nicely.

Thank you LettingGo. Call me crazy, but I do believe it's possible for a WS to shift that thinking )(the "wayward mindset" ). Problem is that soooooooo many choose not to.

gmc94 - I totally agree. I LOVE it when I see a WS do the work and get to redemption. It gives me hope in humanity. I wish there were more of them. I had high hopes for my wayward. That being said, it's never over till it's over, and there is always hope for redemption, even if reconciliation is off the table.

Phew; that was a busy couple of weeks. Sorry for the late response to all. Erm, haven't caught up with everything that was said but I'll iterate on key points I guess..

He would only know that his AP filed for divorce if she told him. Or, if he has a mutual friend, who feels comfortable telling OP what's happening with his AP.

Again. You're jumping to conclusions while throwing veiled accusations. They divorced shortly after our affair started and long before we cut contact. I also live in a country of specific religious practices when it comes to marriage and divorce and the process it takes can easily tell who initiates it.

And yes. To answer your unasked question. I have many shared friends with the OBS and the AP. It's the main reason I left my job and my industry completely. And have kept a distance for the last 2 years. I don't want to know what they're doing. They might have gotten remarried for all I know...

I said it isn't a symptom. It is the waywards personal climax in self destruction

It's not a climax nor will it always lead to self destruction - I know we'd like to believe in karma but that's just not life.

An affair is a repeated dysfunctional behaviour which is a symptom of deeper issues. And if you don't actually go through the work of understanding those issues and eventually develop tools to mitigate them then the cycle repeats.

By the way; an affair is only one symptom of many when it comes to dysfunction. That's why they aren't special. The consequences are devastating, yes, but I think a lot of people confuse the consequences of an affair with the importance of it. <-- that is what sounds strange to my wife. And to most of you here I think.

However, after reading this entire thread. I don't think fDad will ever get it.

lol, maybe not. But then again, I'm not here to impress you.

As far as reconciliation goes (even though it's not really the point of my post), it's a process undertaken by both partners. It is a decision that has to be taken by the betrayed spouse but it is a process of both. Ours is going well. Thank you for asking :)

Sorry. I point blank asked the question more than once. You responded to other posts, but not that question. When one seems to be avoiding a question, the person asking is left to draw their own conclusions. You seem dead set in being condescending towards me. So I will just say good luck to you and your wife.

Fdad -

An affair is a repeated dysfunctional behaviour which is a symptom of deeper issues. And if you don't actually go through the work of understanding those issues and eventually develop tools to mitigate them then the cycle repeats.

And the folks here are trying to point out the ways in which you may not be "understanding" issues.... which you seem to be hellbent on disregarding.

The fact that you do not seem to feel any responsibility as to the fallout of your AP and her OBS due to your personal choices to engage in an A is, IMHO, indicative of that lack of understanding.

And the folks here are trying to point out the ways in which you may not be "understanding" issues.... which you seem to be hellbent on disregarding.

Hell yes. He is accepting his actions. He really isn't owning the results. He is dismissive of the affair and really I just think it is because it is no big deal there because he cheated when they were separated. The level of betrayal may not be the same for them.

t's not a climax nor will it always lead to self destruction - .

IMO, choosing to cheat is the ultimate self destruction short of suicide. Being a cheater is the last stop. Before that were repeated dysfunctional behaviors that paved the road to doing the worst you could do.

Of course you have to dig deep to figure out what your repeated dysfunctional behaviors are. Those issues don't become excuses...they are just ways. They aren't the whys. Then you need to dig even deeper to figure out why you have those behaviors. Those aren't excuses either because no matter what you find out from FOO you chose to incorporate them into your character. I would never dismiss my choices to just say....it is just part of my dysfunction and the consequences mean nothing compared to the importance of my self destruction. A very self absorbed stopping point in my opinion. Is the affair all about you? Yes? Doesn't change that the consequences of it were not all about you. Very good gaslighting though.

Yes, it isn't about the betrayed spouse and it isn't about the marriage. This in reality is your own rat race and the innocent bystanders just got shit thrown on them while you played in your shit pig pen and spun your own wheels. It is absolutely all about you and your fucked up-ness. Your destructive end of the road behaviors stemming from your lack of respecting and loving yourself which results in a low self confidence and esteem. So the fuck what? That reality doesn't negate the consequences that your behavior, choices, lack of character reap on the people around you coming from that.

No one here is confusing anything. You have done what you needed to do. Self reflection without owning the consequences of your choices because you think it is nothing special. For you it wasn't a climax in your self destructive behavior. Maybe it is because you did this while separated from your wife. For others we just aren't so dismissive of what our choices did to others just because the affair itself wasn't special. Yes, it isn't special. Yes, it is to those we fuck over because it was when we proved that we are willing to hurt others to feed ourselves. Those we promised to protect and forsake others for. Even if the APs and affairs are a dime a dozen.

I really get what you trying to say.

but I think a lot of people confuse the consequences of an affair with the importance of it.

Honestly, it is the view my wife has of me and the affair and it has helped her to heal immensely when she saw what the affair was and had nothing to do with her. It is the view of a BS. She was able to see she was an innocent bystander I flung shit at. Thing is as a WS, there is nothing innocent about it. I intentionally threw shit to make myself feel good. You seem to be missing that. There is a reason why your wife doesn't understand. You are telling her not feel hurt that you chose to hurt her because the affair wasn't special. Just because the way was a way in your long road of fucked up ways, doesn't make it any less cruel. You aren't owning it. You are simply dismissing it and compartmentalizing it. You are throwing it in a box and saying..."yeah just another way I screwed up. No big deal because I screw up alot and it really is just because I am screwed up. That is what is most important about this. That I am screwed up. Doesn't matter that I screwed up people along the way. I know it hurts people. Who cares because I am screwed up and that is what we should focus on. Me. How I am hurting myself. " That is regret. When it is all about you and the importance of what you did to yourself.

Is your wife here? Does she have a safe place to work through her pain without you telling her how or what she should feel pain from? If you are so confident in your R and self, then you should be willing to let her check this place out. Even if things are going so great.

The consequences are devastating, yes, but I think a lot of people confuse the consequences of an affair with the importance of it. <-- that is what sounds strange to my wife.

I imagine it sounds strange to your wife because you’re telling her how hard this is for you. She’s not interested in comparing scars with you. Don’t forget that one of the consequences you’re talking about includes being discovered, which is essentially equal to the action when you consider the observer. The inability to factor that in is why you’re drawing a lot of discussion IMO- This is still, at its essence, a post about how hard you have it trying to grapple with what you’ve done.

lol, maybe not. But then again, I'm not here to impress you.

And yet you refute.

lol, maybe not. But then again, I'm not here to impress you.And yet you refute.

good point. He did use the word "but".

I see where this is going. I think JBWD is on to something.

It is like you are trying to convince yourself by convincing us even though you know something is off that you will not face. If you can convince us, then you can stop and feel good about it all and move on and drop the shame and guilt. Though it didn't work like that, posters objected to your reality. I bet there is a nagging bit of shame there you just can't shake. It is like you are accepting yet you don't feel it. Accepting any more shame from guilt will send you over the edge of moving on from the shame.

Yea I know. I'm not really blaming myself for their divorce. But I had a role in it, even if it was incidental. I know if it wasn't me it'd be someone else, same for her. There was nothing special about any of it. Two broken people running from fixing themselves and hurting the people they're suppose to actually really love... Still feel shitty I guess..

Wow. I read the OP's opening post and thought he made a good point so I was really really shocked at the reaction.

I guess I believe that our choices have more to do with our emotions and values than they do the actions of others. The AP and her BH had their own set of circumstances that created their particular crisis, they each have their own set of emotions and values and ability to cope with life and crises, etc. Blaming fDad for the fact that AP and her BH couldn't or wouldn't do the hard work of reconciliation, or that AP & BH realized too late that their value systems were incompatible, or whatever made it impossible for them to salvage their marriage is a stretch. So I get what he said. Yeah, he feels shitty about it and we wishes he hadn't done what he did but at the end of the day, he is not to blame for the choices AP and her BH made in the aftermath of the affair. What if AP and her BH had reconciled? Would fDad have gotten credit and been absolved of feeling shitty? Nope. It just doesn't work that way. He had a role in creating the crisis, he had no role in how AP & BH handled the aftermath.

What if a WS reconciles with their BS for 5 yrs. but has an affair with someone else and this time it ends in divorce. Does AP#1 get the blame for the marriage failing or does AP#2 get the blame? And no, it can't be split equally. If we're going to place blame for the end of a marriage on another person, it can only fall upon one.

Personally, I believe he's right about not taking the blame for AP's marriage ending. Don't worry, he has plenty of other things to feel guilty about and his time is better spent working on those things. Especially since he can't do anything about the AP's marriage at this point.

And I did understand what he meant about his role being incidental. He wasn't chosen for the role, it wasn't fate or karma or any of those things. He didn't wake up one day and decide to go out and find a married woman to start an A with. Two broken people happened to find each other and didn't have what it took to be honorable . The fallout was horrific and the amount of pain and suffering unbearable but it was not a giant plan that they were roped into following. Using the word incidental doesn't lessen the horror of it, just refers to the fact that it was never part of a plan. It doesn't necessarily follow that every AP would have done it with someone else if the one hadn't shown up but it does follow that the AP would have still been a broken person. Which may or may not have negatively affected her marriage.

I personally believe that if someone wants to become a better person and live a life of integrity and honesty and humility, they'll get there quicker if they stick to the things that will make the changes. A friend of mine has a little boy who, as soon as he makes a minor mistake when he's doing something, immediately starts beating himself up, calling himself stupid and worthless, etc. They're working with him to stop and instead ask himself why he made the mistake and learn from it. Did he stay up too late last night and not get enough sleep? Did he leave too much until the last minute and is now panicking to get the job finished? And then learn from that - plan ahead, go to bed earlier, etc. And that's what I thought fDad was trying to relay - that he's trying to figure out the deeper issues in his efforts to become a better man.

All that said, I do hope you continue to look long and hard at everything, fDad. You know the old expression "everyone in this world has problems; what makes the difference in people is how they deal with those problems." I hope you're able to continue to grow and to be the husband your wife thought she was marrying. Good luck to you.

[This message edited by josiep at 1:51 PM, May 5th (Tuesday)]

That's the reality of my affair. And that is the reality of your affair. Love. Connection. All of that? There's nothing special about any of it. It's a dime a dozen.

How cavalier that statement is. I assume my husband feels the same way.

Well it meant something to me. Finding out he had all these hidden personality disorders, leaving me to deal with my own personal trauma from the lying and gaslighting? Trying to make sense of what happened until I can't do it anymore.

I came to realize he didn't have any love or connection in our marriage either. Perhaps that applies to you as well.

Josiep...just wondering why it isn't both for you? Why shouldn't both be blamed?

He had a role in creating the crisis, he had no role in how AP & BH handled the aftermath.

Yes he did. So if that creates a crisis and the aftermath of the crisis he creates ends in divorce then why isn't he part of that aftermath?

Does AP#1 get the blame for the marriage failing or does AP#2 get the blame? And no, it can't be split equally. If we're going to place blame for the end of a marriage on another person, it can only fall upon one.

Why? From the WS POV, taking ownership in how your actions affect others...why only one? Why can't the blame be put on multiple people for causing the marriage to fall apart. I mean afterall some states allow BS to sue for alienation of affection still. So, obviously by law blame can be put forth on the AP.

Especially since he can't do anything about the AP's marriage at this point.

It isn't about what he can do for them. It is accepting you are responsible (along with others) for breaking up someone else's marriage if you do. Just because they have the ultimate choice of how to handle it doesn't absolve you of your actions.

If that is the case, then there are so many things a person can do and just say...meh...I can't help what they choose to do after I choose to hurt others. Then bullies would have no responsibility for someone committing suicide for being picked on...or a driver would have no responsibility for killing someone or hurting them as a passenger...after all the person chose to get in the car.

A friend of mine has a little boy who, as soon as he makes a minor mistake when he's doing something, immediately starts beating himself up, calling himself stupid and worthless, etc. They're working with him to stop and instead ask himself why he made the mistake and learn from it. Did he stay up too late last night and not get enough sleep? Did he leave too much until the last minute and is now panicking to get the job finished? And then learn from that - plan ahead, go to bed earlier, etc. And that's what I thought fDad was trying to relay - that he's trying to figure out the deeper issues in his efforts to become a better man.

His actions only hurt him. Not much to own there. No where near the same thing. Now, if he drove got into a car accident and killed someone when he fell behind the wheel. He impacted someone elses life with his destructive choices and has to own that. Cheating is like that. Not like staying up late and beating yourself up.

I personally believe that if someone wants to become a better person and live a life of integrity and honesty and humility, they'll get there quicker if they stick to the things that will make the changes.

Are you betrayed or wayward? Betrayed right? Plenty of waywards have chimed in with what is important and how you get there. Why would taking ownership in causing a rift in someone else's life mean you can't work on you? Is it really changing and being a person of integrity and honor if you can't take ownership of causing harm to other people? Really? Is that where a WS should stop growing? Just admitting they harmed their BS?

It isn't black or white to me, you can't blame both . Yes, you can. The APs role in the OBS life is grey. They intentionally put themselves in the relationship between two other people forever effecting the intimacy and relationship. What the couple decides to do with that is built on that action. Like it or not. We influence it. We have responsibility for that. Having responsibility and owning it makes you a better person and doesn't take away working on yourself. If anything it proves you aren't a sociopath.

Zugzwang, I'm a BW; It does help when reading and responding to know a bit about the other poster so I updated my sig line. I'm glad you asked because I've been meaning to do that for quite awhile now.

Why would taking ownership in causing a rift in someone else's life mean you can't work on you? Is it really changing and being a person of integrity and honor if you can't take ownership of causing harm to other people? Really? Is that where a WS should stop growing? Just admitting they harmed their BS?

I didn't say he shouldn't take ownership of the harm he's caused. Quite the opposite, I think he needs to focus on the real harm, not the fallout from the harm. The conversation was specifically about whether fDad is to blame for the D between his former AP and her BH.

The point I was trying to make was a fine one but I think it's an important one. I shared my thoughts because they might help someone who is spinning themselves in circles to figure out why they feel the way they do about something but can't quite grasp it in order to deal with it because oftentimes, our focus is not on the thing that will make it clear to us.

WS can spend the rest of his days beating himself up for destroying AP's marriage but that doesn't accomplish anything because that marriage will still be over. Just as a R between AP and BH wouldn't have changed anything as far as fDad is concerned because R doesn't erase the pain, the agony, the other types of fallout in terms of job losses, financial losses, community standing, that WERE caused by him and for which he is responsible and has the obligation to repair to the best of his ability. His actions caused those things. His actions did not cause the AP & BH to get divorced.

So, like the little boy who just beat himself up over what he already did instead of fixing himself so he doesn't continue to make the same bad choices, I think was what OP was trying to say. I don't think he was trying to minimize, I think he was trying to hone in on the root causes and focus on what he needs to do to become the man he wants to be.

Analogies can be tricky but let's look at the drunk driving one a little deeper and maybe you'll see what I'm driving at (no pun intended). Let's say you and I go out and get drunk. On the way home, I drive us into a ditch and you get badly injured. Oh, my, I injured my friend, I injured my friend, I'm a terrible person, I'll have to beat myself up for the rest of my life, I hurt my friend, I'm a bad person.

Now, let's change the scenario up a little bit. You and I go out and get drunk and then I drive you home. I drop you off and I go home and go to sleep. Ah, good, I'm a good person, I didn't hurt my friend, I took good care of my friend, I'm a good person.

Right? Not in the least because getting you home safely doesn't change the fact that I drove while I was drunk which was wrong, illegal and just plain dreadful. And I should feel horrible about it. I drove drunk and I risked my friend's life and the lives of many other innocent people. THAT is what I need to work on. Why did I drive when I was drunk? And how do I fix that part of me that allowed me to think it was an OK thing to do?

Now, maybe I'm wrong about all of this and I'm certainly open to pursuing the conversation further. I don't mean to sound like a school marm, I really and truly am just trying to help people narrow the focus. IF they want to. Maybe it doesn't help other people to get that focus but it does help me so I shared.

***************************

I tend to go on and on and on and give people eyestrain but I do have one more little snippet that might be useful if you want to read further. I'm 70, I met my XWH when I'd just turned 18 in 1967; we married in 1972. He went into alcohol rehab in 1982 after ending a short affair with a barfly. We moved away and to be honest, I never really thought about her ever again. She was immaterial to my life. But to be honest, I don't know if XWH ever thought about her anymore or what he thought if he did. He got heavily involved in AA and as luck had it, so was his new boss so he got pretty entrenched in living by the Big Book and also in his wonderful new job. I was living AlAnon and began my stint as soccer Mom/suburban housewife (again, my career on hold while we all healed from all the turmoil). So life was good for us. Fast forward to 2017, he's still dry, but no longer in AA. He goes to his 50th class reunion and gets swept off his feet by his old girlfriend who's there with her 3rd H. He started a long distance affair with her, I found out, we divorced and he's now married to her and living the good life in TX.

Which one of those women is responsible for my divorce? I hate them both, of course, but it was MY decision to divorce and they didn't even enter my mind as being factors. The first one was young and foolish and a drinker and was looking for a big shot (he did well in his career) so I don't actually hate her. The one he's married to now? She's a whore, always has been. She thought he had money and she pursued him relentlessly. Do I blame her that I threw him out and filed for Divorce? I blame her for being a money-hungry, lying whore but I don't blame her for my divorce. I blame her for the pain that she's caused so many people, including her own children and stepkids and her poor ex-husband who didn't know about the A until I called him after their divorce was final. The things I blame her for are far worse that my decision to Divorce.

I see. What I will counter is that if the WS owns what they did, they shouldn't be spinning their wheels over something they can't change. What you suggest to me is more glossing over and running almost completely denying in order to move forward. It just isn't the same for me. Ownership and acceptance keeps you moving forward. Not turning from in order to move on and focusing on more specific things to move through life. Now, if you are suggesting he focuses more on other things. Maybe grows and revisits this as opposed to totally denying it... I can understand that.

I don't mean to sound like a school marm,

My wife is a school marm, no chance in that. I owe much of my growth to her. You sound like you are in a good place. Much like my wife. In a place of looking at APs with more pitty and understanding. I can see your point for how you have healed. I think what bothers me here is that he is trying to make his wife see it like you and she might not be there. I really just think this seems more like a place for a BS to be. To me it represents grace and mercy. From a WS perspective, what he is doing is completely different. It is denial. It is a disservice to deny the reality that he influenced the marriage that might lead to divorce. Personally that is what I own and accept. It didn't keep me from moving forward with growth. It cleansed me and made me humble that I impacted others lives too, not just my family.

I see. What I will counter is that if the WS owns what they did, they shouldn't be spinning their wheels over something they can't change. What you suggest to me is more glossing over and running almost completely denying in order to move forward. It just isn't the same for me. Ownership and acceptance keeps you moving forward. Not turning from in order to move on and focusing on more specific things to move through life. Now, if you are suggesting he focuses more on other things. Maybe grows and revisits this as opposed to totally denying it... I can understand that.

I don't mean to sound like a school marm,

My wife is a school marm, no chance in that. I owe much of my growth to her. You sound like you are in a good place. Much like my wife. In a place of looking at APs with more pitty and understanding. I can see your point for how you have healed. I think what bothers me here is that he is trying to make his wife see it like you and she might not be there. I really just think this seems more like a place for a BS to be. To me it represents grace and mercy. From a WS perspective, what he is doing is completely different. It is denial. It is a disservice to deny the reality that he influenced the marriage that might lead to divorce. Personally that is what I own and accept. It didn't keep me from moving forward with growth. It cleansed me and made me humble that I impacted others lives too, not just my family.

IF that's how my message came across, I'm not using the right words and we're at an impasse because I don't know any other way to explain what I mean. fDad is responsible for every tear that was shed, every dime that was spent pursuing and covering his A, every panic attack, every sad moment, every fall to their knees sobbing by the BS's, every single disappointment felt by his children, every single moment of the BS's lives that were wasted having to deal with his betrayal, his lack of integrity, his lack of moral judgment, his lack of maturity, his lack of courage. But the AP's actual divorce? Nope.

And I was not referring to the OP as such, I was dissecting the notion that anyone other than the husband or wife are responsible for the AP's divorce. The logic that creates an OP who will feel like shit the rest of his life because he has to feel guilty about causing a divorce, something he had no vote in, no voice whether it happened or not and no way to fix it.

But, at least his AP can live a life free of that guilt since OP and his wife are not divorcing.

Edited, the next day, to add: This comes fro my strong belief that that adults are responsible for their own choices/actions. By blaming someone not in a marriage for the demise of that marriage just gives the divorced person an external excuse for that choice than them looking in the mirror. I'm sorry that's such a fractured sentence but I hope it explains what I mean.

I'd also like to make one more point, if I may. I think fDad was also making a point with his post, an important point, and one that I think would be a key point for all WS's to grasp at some point. That his A was not special and their "love" was not special, in spite of how they fell about it while it was going on.

And instead of posters responding to the point he was trying to make, the conversation turned to dissecting fDad's choices and words. And the more he tried to explain or clarify, the worse it got.

Meanwhile, no one is paying any attention to the idea he was trying to share in order to help others, that the affairs are nothing special, are actually very easy to do, anyone can have one. And the realization that the people involved, who once saw each other as gods, now realize how broken and pathetic they really are.

And I think that's a valuable insight for a WS. His story isn't finished yet but I think gaining this insight helps him along the better path that he seeks. As all of you WS's know, it's a process and it doesn't happen overnight. It's actually the same for the BS's. But the most important thing is to keep gaining insights and letting our hearts and brains process them for if we don't, we relapse and become miserable. Isn't that a lot of what S.I. is for?

I have to go. It's my neighbor's 90th birthday and I have to go decorate the front of her house and prepare for the surprise golf cart parade at 4 P.M. Part of my healing process has been to accept that this is where I live for now, in a sweltering hot community in So. Florida where my neighbors are mostly old. I came from 57 acres with woods and a pond in Ohio with 4 dogs and 3 cats. The process to get me to "live" here and join in and be part of this community hasn't come easy and I'm not there yet but I'm going to keep trying. And maybe I'll never get there but I have to keep moving forward or I'll revert back to stinkin' thinkin' and allowing my self to lay blame on other people for my circumstances, and yes, for my choices. Yeah, the Rat Bastard deserves 90% of the blame but even so, he's gone so the only one who can help me now is me. But I've finally gained that insight and have been working to process it. No one learns their life lessons quickly.

[This message edited by josiep at 8:21 AM, May 7th (Thursday)]

This comes fro my strong belief that that adults are responsible for their own choices/actions. By blaming someone not in a marriage for the demise of that marriage just gives the divorced person an external excuse for that choice than them looking in the mirror.

I do understand. I just disagree. I agree we are responsible for our own choices. I believe we are responsible for influencing others choices as well. I don't believe that acknowledging that takes away our ability to see our own choices or gives it external excuses to use as a scapegoat.

That his A was not special and their "love" was not special, in spite of how they fell about it while it was going on.

Every poster already agreed with that. What they didn't agree with is that just because it wasn't special, that the BS should just forget about it and not feel pain or the the OP shouldn't feel guilt for causing OBS pain and influencing her life just because the AP meant nothing.

Meanwhile, no one is paying any attention to the idea he was trying to share in order to help others, that the affairs are nothing special, are actually very easy to do, anyone can have one. And the realization that the people involved, who once saw each other as gods, now realize how broken and pathetic they really are.

I don't think anyone missed that point or ignored it. They seemed to already know and acknowledge it. What they focused on was something else because it obviously bothered many WS and BS alike. Would it be right to stop and focus on yes, you got that right and we agree without pointing out from experience and POV from many that he got something very wrong in the process?

I'll revert back to stinkin' thinkin' and allowing my self to lay blame on other people for my circumstances, and yes, for my choices.

Thank you. That sentence there explains a lot as to why you have your perspective. Placing accountability on others doesn't mean you lay blame or stop owning your own choices. You can hold other people accountable for their choices and influence and still own your choices with what to do with that. Accountability is not the same as an excuse. The POV really seems like a Clockwork Orange thing. All or nothing. Black or white. There are areas of grey to many. Though that is how it always has been this discussion has been brought up many times in General about is the AP to blame or just the husband. For me. Both. Acknowledging that doesn't take away any ownership or self accountability I do for myself. On the contrary...it developed empathy and ownership for what I did to the OBS.

[This message edited by Zugzwang at 9:01 AM, May 7th (Thursday)]

Zug, I can’t decide What your goal is here. You’ve been cherry-picking sentences out of my heartfelt responses and, from where I sit, twisting them to make some argument against things I didn’t say.

The old me would have kept trying to help you understand what I was saying. Not to have you agree Necessarily but it used to be important to me that my message was understood. But I’ve learned that to some, it’s a game to purposely refuse to acknowledge what someone is trying to say. The new me is wise to that and I don’t play that game anymore. And I think OP Figured it out long before me and moved on.

Makes me feel sad.

I have been reading and rarely responding in the wayward side because I have my own issues regarding my own A and I seem to lack the stones to start my own thread.

I feel that my RA was nothing special and a dime a dozen too. I simply had an opportunity and set about making reasons in my mind why pursuing that opportunity would be a good thing. It seems foolish and cruel in hindsight.

That said, I find it hard to separate the panic attacks, pain, financial loss, loss of status, tears, and time josiep speaks of and the choice to divorce. Aren't all of those things mentioned a huge reason or even catalyst for choosing divorce? Would the divorce have happened without those A related things in the mix? Who's to say, but I would wager they damn sure played a huge role. Can you help me see the difference josiep? I do appreciate your input here.

Someone that disagrees just disagrees. It isn't a game or a refusal to see your point. I just disagree with it. Sorry you feel that way. My POV comes from a WS that hurt someone and feels this is what it means to own the repercussions of my actions.

[This message edited by Zugzwang at 11:29 PM, May 8th (Friday)]