SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

No I’m not aware of the 180 - I’ll try to find out about it..

https://survivinginfidelity.com/faq_bs.asp#FAQ11

https://survivinginfidelity.com/healing_library/confrontation/understanding-the-180.asp

https://survivinginfidelity.com/healing_library/confrontation/simplified-180.asp

Please read all three of these and come back here with questions. Most BSs wrongly think that the 180 is not for them, fearing it will "push the WS further away." It's very counterintuitive. But this will change everything about what's happening to you currently if you can muster the strength to do it.

No I totally get that. I’m not expecting a spark other than thunder bolts right now. I guess I meant can relationships recover when so broken.

I’m clearly better at admitting my failings than him but by that I don’t mean excusing him.

Of course I need truth and honesty- without that we won’t move forward. And that’s down to him. I’m musing whether it’s even possible to recover.

It is very possible. However, it is not possible in your current state. Things need to change.

The very basic starting point is that the A needs to be completely done. This means fully NC. If you believe that, then you can move on from there (I'm not sure I believe it, and it DEFINITELY will not be true if they return to the workplace together).

The next is that WS needs to be honest, remorseful, and committed to reconciliation and all that entails. Your WS is definitely not there. He may never get there, who knows? But he's not there now.

If you implement the 180--really do it, and for the right reasons--I'd bet you'd start to see some changes in him within 24-48 hours. Not a guarantee, just a thing that often happens.

Glad to talk more about that and all the 180 entails and what it all means. Please do that reading first and then come back here with your thoughts.

[This message edited by Okokok at 8:19 AM, May 20th (Wednesday)]

Thanks for the 180 links. I’m glad to say that I’m doing a lot of that already. I’m definitely not begging him to stay or dancing a pick me dance! I’ve told him to go, she’s more than welcome to him. I really don’t speak to him. What I need to work on is me and making myself stronger. Happier. This is something I should’ve done a long time ago (and a likely cause for our marriage breakdown - but I’m not excusing him).

I’ve hardly slept but I’m sure he’s lying to cover how long this has actually been going on. I think it started emotionally a year or more ago, he says he only started sleeping with her January. I know he wasn’t where he said he was on his weekend away - I was tracking him - but I don’t want him to know that I still can track him.

And if they both keep their jobs they’ll be back working together and I’m sure it’ll just re-ignite. So one of them needs to leave. But that may be out if their hands with the likely redundancies.

I do goad him to talk. But he seems to think that he’s denied it, there’s nothing more to say, we’ve moved on, subject closed.

The current situation makes it hard, no time apart, no time alone.

He crumbled after about a minute. But the damage is done. What a lie. Trying to protect her? What they had? Who knows?

After I asked about the weekend away and of course that was denied too. He didn’t protest too much or justify why it couldn’t be true.

I've been catching up! I'm sure you are struggling, as the shock starts to wear off. It's all SO hard, and I'm so sorry. I wanted to clarify... he said it was one person and you called him on it and that's what he "crumbled" and admitted? Did he come clean on who it is? Then you mentioned he denied the weekend away, but it sounds like not strongly? I'm just trying to get that straight, to understand which bombshells you are still sitting on, unknown to him.

He's pouting because this just got hard. No matter what he does, it's going to be hard. He's hoping that time and a "lite" version of the truth will be enough to get over the hump and rugsweep it away. I may be in the minority when I say that I think even a truly remorseful spouse can struggle to do the right thing at first, and the reasons aren't necessarily malicious. They are selfish, self-serving, bull$hit - but self-preservation is pure human nature. The test is how quickly they get over that. Ideally they seek the tools on their own. At a minimum they embrace any tools they are given. If he is ready to be proactive point him to the book "How to help your spouse heal from your affair" - it's a cheap e-book or maybe even free? By Linda MacDonald. The pinned post on the Wayward side is good too, I copied that to a Word doc. Tell him that you've got a LOT you need to think about (even if all you got was "truth lite") and that if he is serious about any possibility of reconciling, he can start learning. Emphasize again that the full truth now is the only possible path forward, any discovery of lies or omissions later would likely be a dealbreaker. Then 180.

Hang in there!!

Thanks reboot- I so appreciate yours and everyone’s support.

We were talking- I said I need honestly. He said he’d answer what he could. Previously I’d made out I didn’t know who it was. (I did but didn’t want him to know I’d been snooping). I asked him to acknowledge who he’d been having an affair with. He said - ‘A. But I stored her number under Bs name in my phone.’ (B is actually the OW)

So he tried to tell me it was the new girl at work. When in fact it is the one I suspected and knew it was all along. Whether he wants to hide the truth of how long it’s been going on or I’m wondering whether A is likely to be made redundant. This would mean that with me believing A is OW, she gets made redundant, he can carry on working with B and maybe rekindle when this all dies down. Or maybe he’s just trying to protect B from any backlash. I don’t know but it was a really dumb lie to try and get away with.

He denied being away with her. I’m certain he was. If he doesn’t admit that, then the only way forward is D. But I do think I’m getting the lite version for his self preservation.

He has the option to leave - the door is open and I’ll happily pack for him.

He’s not much of a reader so I’m not sure on a whole book but I’ll check out the post you said about. And we’ve just got a printer so that’ll make things easier. I don’t want him to know where I spend my time!

Grundy. I think it’s important that you make him fully aware that with honesty and transparency there is a possibility of working to rebuild the relationship with you that he has destroyed but with his continued lying and avoiding and withholding of the truth there will be no such chance.

Click on “the healing library” here in the upper left and then click on “Joseph’s Letter” and read it. See what you think. If it resonates with you, print it and give it to him. If he does not know about this site yet cut off any URL information that would lead him here before giving it to him.

Take care.

My FWS is also not much of a reader, although he has done some online reading on his own which I appreciate! The book I shared is actually a short read! You can read it in less than an hour. It's very straightfoward. The pinned post is kinda long-ish. When I copied to Word it was like 9 pages (I cleaned up the formatting a little, LOL!). But it is also very straightfoward and shorter than a full book! Early on I sent FWS links to videos on the you tube channel Affair Recovery. I love their stuff. There's a LOT so it would be overwhelming to just send the channel link. I would find a handful of videos that most resonated with me and ask him to watch. A few we watched together. He didn't mind that as a start but over time it felt too preachy for him. Don't let your WS off the hook... maybe "reading" this stuff is outside his normal behavior and character - but in theory so as cheating! So he can get out of his comfort zone to save the marriage. PERIOD. Ditto for going to IC. Mine has reluctantly done that, although won't do phone sessions so it's on hold. But he knows it's a condition of R so it will resume, and so will MC, eventually. He doesn't *hate* it but doesn't look forward to and embrace it like I do, at least not yet. He and his IC only had a few sessions together so there may not have been enough comfort yet for a deep dive.

Yes, Joseph's letter could be a good place to start! Copy and paste, change the words to be more suitable (e.g., you aren't just dealing with "a night" - nor was I). Go to the Healing Library and then Articles.

That really sucks you still aren't getting the full truth. At some point you may have to straight up tell him "I KNOW you aren't being truthful... the truth wasn't very hard for me to find out and I have proof... so this is your last chance..." (And then mean it). Maybe not yet, if you want to see how the work stuff plays out, but don't let yourself be in "truth limbo" for too long. It means bracing for another DDay due to the trickle truth (even hearing him talk about things you already knew will hurt). But you have a lot of power right now, and don't be afraid to use it!

[This message edited by GTeamReboot at 8:01 AM, May 21st (Thursday)]

Thanks for that recommendation for Joseph’s letter. Certainly with some adaption it could fit my story. He’s tried to answer questions I’ve posed but I think instinctively he’s hoping for some self preservation.

I think they probably thought they’d carried out their weekend away perfectly and he’s probably shocked that I would even think they’d go to such great lengths - 17 hours of travelling each way. I think he even said the idea was ridiculous. But he was going anyway and what had she got to stop her? She travelled the day before I think and probably stayed on a couple of days after he left to visit his family.

I told him that I’d pretty much guessed at the affair - just by his behaviour (I don’t want him to know I can access his phone although he may suspect). So he would think I’m guessing at the weekend away so will continue to deny. He asked what made me think it. His location - don’t want him to know I can track him. His google search history- linked on iPad- don’t want him to know that. The fact that she messaged him along the lines of ‘see you panicking for nothing’ after the got back. I had refused to take his calls one day as I was so mad with him. Guilty mind.

We are being civil - not chatty. I will remind him that as far as I’m concerned it’s over unless he starts being honest . Although he does already know this but maybe forgotten conveniently.

Maybe you should tell him that you have proof of where he was during that weekend. That you’re not giving up your source, so he better come clean because you know he’s lying and if he doesn’t tell the truth and match his story to what you know, you’re done.

Have you corrected his lie yet? ie. "I know it's not A, it's B. I had you followed. So you can either STOP lying to me, and I mean about EVERYTHING, come clean, and work with me to see if there's anything left of this marriage, or I will give my attorney the go-ahead and we'll go down THAT route."

He doesn't have to know how you know... only that you do. By this time, I'd have already seen a real attorney, but you don't owe a liar the truth. Tell him you've got one. Tell him you've had a PI on him too. Tell him it's none of his fucking business how you paid for it. You don't answer to LIARS. Let him believe you know it all, but you need to hear it from his lips in order to see if he's still willing to try and lie to you. Chances are, he'll still try to lie and minimize thinking that your PI can't know everything. But whenever you're sure he's lying, you look him right in the eye and say, "try again".

Once you've gotten what you can, tell him in no uncertain terms that you will tolerate nothing but honesty going forward, and if you catch him in another lie, any possibility of R is off the table. Mean it. There's no substitute for honoring your own ultimatum. Cheaters don't take you seriously until you're SERIOUS.

Think about it, what does it mean to be remorseful? If you are a religious person and you're sorry that you sinned, you make a confession of your transgressions, you STOP your sinful behavior, and you make amends as best you can. But whether a person is religious or not, that's still the recipe for true contrition. Anything less means that the WS is NOT SORRY. Why would anyone reconcile with a WS who isn't sorry???

Oh yeah, when he said it was A, although it made me stop for about 20 seconds (everything literally went into slow motion whilst my brain processed what he’d said and all the reasons it was a blatant lie), he immediately admitted that it was a lie and that it was B.

He knows I’m serious. Im not a weeping wife, begging him to stay. He knows I’m fine with him leaving. He knows that he needs to be honest. He knows that even with full honestly I’m not promising R. And he knows that if we attempt R it may not work. And that he’s changed things forever.

Maybe self preservation? He really enjoys his job and will struggle to find work currently and massive job losses happening in our area. English is not his first language so there are some roles he just couldn’t manage.

He’s very competitive and doesn’t like being wrong. Being caught will obviously prove he’s not so clever after all. He thinks I’m guessing at the weekend away. Next time I bring it up, he won’t- he’s denied it so case closed for him. He asked me for evidence which I don’t want to disclose- I do have one last try - he went for a night out somewhere that has live stream cameras.

Or he could be protecting the affair as he’s planning to continue it. But he’s welcome to move out. So that would make it much easier - if that’s what he wants.

Never give up your evidence. He will use it against you and use it to help him hide his affair.

You don’t need to play the “proof game” with him. It’s a tactic cheaters use to avoid and deflect the issue of facing the truth and eventual consequences.

If he demands proof you tell him “I don’t have to prove anything to you. We both know you’ve been cheating and we both know it includes “x” (hotel, dinner, weekend away etc). “

I would add in a line about now being the time to be honest if he has any interest in saving the marriage. If he chooses to continue he to lie then you know how little he values you.

My H tried to take his A to the grave. Except I called the OW and she spilled the beans. When I told him and she told me three things he lied about one of the the three saying it didn’t happen. Of course I didn’t believe him and after one day he admitted she was telling the truth.

It was definitely he said she said b/c I had no proof. Until I saw the AmEx bill. Never would have looked at it if she had not said something. But he was smart to realize I wasn’t playing the “proof Game”.

And neither should you. If it gets down to that IMO the marriage is over. If he refuses to be honest then you have very little you can work with.

Oh he doesn’t deny the affair - admitted it straight away - I didn’t have any proof. (Not that I told him about anyway) so that’s why he’s trying to deny they were away together . I’m pretty sure of it. Thinks he doesn’t have to admit it as I can’t possibly have proof.

YOu can tell him you have proof but not tell him what it is. You can also lead him to believe that someone saw them together and contacted you.

If you tell him you know and that further lies will make it that much harder for you to ever trust him again.

Well he knows further lies will stop us from moving forwards.

He’s denying because all along I’ve had no evidence - what possible evidence could I have that he was with her for the weekend? No chance that someone saw them- in a city of 10 million, 6000 miles away. And they didn’t travel there together.

Polygraph.

Any chance you gave him a version of Joseph’s Letter to read yet?