SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Your body, your choice. We hear this all the time. Rarely in relation to men though for some reason.

[This message edited by Cromer at 8:02 PM, August 7th (Friday)]

Poppy704...

Where did he say he wouldn't use other methods of birth control?

Or do you still only pop in to try to villianize Betrayed Spouses?

[This message edited by prissy4lyfe at 9:08 PM, August 7th (Friday)]

It's your body, your choice and anyone trying to tell you otherwise -- including some oddly LOUD and aggressive voices on this thread -- are misguided souls.

Don't feel you need to defend your misgivings. They are perfectly valid.

Me? I don't want more kids. I love kids. I love being a dad. But at nearly 50, I don't want to be responsible for a newborn, an infant, a toddler, a preschooler. Just don't. I like sleep. And Ilike the freedom a vasectomy gives me. So think about that too.

Anyway, my wife interpreted my response as punishment. She believes I don't want a vasectomy because I'm trying to 'get back' at her. Then she went on this tangent about how 'this is a reminder that she needs to just think and make decisions for herself".

So your wife is basically as selfish as she ever was. Her saying you are trying to get back at her is DARVO in a nutshell. It takes a little practice to see it sometimes.

Three years in recovering from the trauma of betrayal is a blip. If she doens't get that, you're getting that infamous naugahyde remorse. And this sure sounds like it.

It's never too late to divorce.

Maybe you should make that decision for YOURSELF.

Your wife can get sterilized, tubal ligation, uterine ablation, etc

Save your fertility in case you want the option of another child

[This message edited by 20yrsagoBS at 9:14 AM, August 8th (Saturday)]

The issue is that he is justly apprehensive and instead of being empathetic to how he feels she wanted a timeline of when he would get over it so he would get the procedure.

I don’t disagree with this at all. I said some of that in my earlier responses. The only reason I am Pushing him for open communication Is because he is openly admitting he keeps his mouth shut to keep the peace.

I think it’s extremely common that both people, not just the ws try and rugsweep. If there isn’t communication about how the bs is feeling then remorse specifically about what you have done to them really can’t be reached. Now I do feel it should be the ws’s responsibility to bring it iup and to better their communication skills. But I know too many bh on this board who tell us all the horrible ways they feel but they openly admit they do not tell their ws.

This would have happened to my husband and I had I not joined this community and learned what I should be asking. I have had to pull so much from him that never would have come out any other way.

I can understand a scenario in which a couple would be three years out, rarely talk about the affair, the ws has moved on from it, the bs hasn’t. Then the ws is thunderstruck when the bs tells them they won’t do this or that because they are still reeling from the affair. The ws has really done nothing to change other than stop cheating and the bs has held a lot in over the time. It’s passive aggressive, and then it will just feel like punishment instead of being productive.

To R the amount of communication is massive and both people have to be open and honest and not afraid to say what’s on their mind. Ever. There has to be a level of honesty coming from both spouses.

[This message edited by hikingout at 11:59 AM, August 8th (Saturday)]

Sorry I haven't had a chance to respond to this thread.

I agree with everyone who is saying the main issue we need to work on is communication and I think we need to work more on processing the affair together.

Just to clarify - I want to work on our relationship. I want things to work out. I do love her and we have a great life together. I guess the 'no' to the vasectomy comes back to fear that I'm going to get cheated on again (or that it's happening again and I just don't know about it). I still 'check up on her' when I get a bad feeling. For example, if I go to bed and she is still awake sometimes I wake up in a panic and start imagining that she is talking/texting with the other man. So I get up and go find her to make sure nothing is happening. I am also open to condoms or any other method of birth control. I am still thinking about the vasectomy and truly considering speaking with my Doctor in the future. I just want to make sure I am not just doing it for us, but that it's what I really want as well.

So just to update we had not talked about the vasectomy issue - everything got rug swept until today. See how great our communication is? :) I think what triggered it is that she went to see her Doctor about getting a new IUD yesterday. I woke up last night wondering where my wife was and found her sleeping on the couch with the TV on. I was going through one of my anxious phases as I described above. We got talking about it and she told me that the Doctor encouraged her to use other forms of protection because she is nearing the end of her IUD and she needs another appointment for the replacement - but she also told me that she didn't come to bed with me because she was avoiding sex with me (because we don't have any condoms) AND she was still upset about how we left the vasectomy conversation a couple weeks ago. I interpreted it that she is angry with me for not getting a vasectomy and feels 'forced' into the IUD.

So we tried to discuss this issue and it only turned into me talking about the affair and how horrible it has been for me and her expressing that she understands how I feel because she has been betrayed before and telling me that I'm not showing empathy to her side of the situation. That statement really frustrated me so I started expressing how she hasn't shown empathy for my side and everything I've gone through. My wife choosing to have an affair, but not by chance, she purposely sought it out. Then continued to have this LTA off and on for 4 years until I discovered it. Anyway, my wife didn't respond well. She got visibly upset, stood up and walked away stating "I can't talk about this".

At this point I don't know how she feels. I don't know if she is angry with me or feels shame for what she has done. I think it's more the latter. And I can be patient and we can hopefully rediscuss our situation without things escalating. I'd like to find a way to find resolution to our problems without waiting days/weeks at a time to rediscuss.

What do I want? I want to work on communication. I want her to listen to me, show empathy and understanding to my situation, show true remorse and stop pulling away. I want to stop rug sweeping and bring issues up when they occur. I'm willing to put in the work for us and practice patience. These are issues we identified in couples counseling and they are hard habits to break for both of us.

EDIT: OOPS - double-posted!!!!

--------

Sorry I haven't had a chance to respond to this thread.

I agree with everyone who is saying the main issue we need to work on is communication and I think we need to work more on processing the affair together.

Just to clarify - I want to work on our relationship. I want things to work out. I do love her and we have a great life together. I guess the 'no' to the vasectomy comes back to fear that I'm going to get cheated on again (or that it's happening again and I just don't know about it). I still 'check up on her' when I get a bad feeling. For example, if I go to bed and she is still awake sometimes I wake up in a panic and start imagining that she is talking/texting with the other man. So I get up and go find her to make sure nothing is happening. I am also open to condoms or any other method of birth control. I am still thinking about the vasectomy and truly considering speaking with my Doctor in the future. I just want to make sure I am not just doing it for us, but that it's what I really want as well.

So just to update we had not talked about the vasectomy issue - everything got rug swept until today. See how great our communication is? :) I think what triggered it is that she went to see her Doctor about getting a new IUD yesterday. I woke up last night wondering where my wife was and found her sleeping on the couch with the TV on. I was going through one of my anxious phases as I described above. We got talking about it and she told me that the Doctor encouraged her to use other forms of protection because she is nearing the end of her IUD and she needs another appointment for the replacement - but she also told me that she didn't come to bed with me because she was avoiding sex with me (because we don't have any condoms) AND she was still upset about how we left the vasectomy conversation a couple weeks ago. I interpreted it that she is angry with me for not getting a vasectomy and feels 'forced' into the IUD.

So we tried to discuss this issue and it only turned into me talking about the affair and how horrible it has been for me and her expressing that she understands how I feel because she has been betrayed before and telling me that I'm not showing empathy to her side of the situation. That statement really frustrated me so I started expressing how she hasn't shown empathy for my side and everything I've gone through. My wife choosing to have an affair, but not by chance, she purposely sought it out. Then continued to have this LTA off and on for 4 years until I discovered it. Anyway, my wife didn't respond well. She got visibly upset, stood up and walked away stating "I can't talk about this".

At this point I don't know how she feels. I don't know if she is angry with me or feels shame for what she has done. I think it's more the latter. And I can be patient and we can hopefully rediscuss our situation without things escalating. I'd like to find a way to find resolution to our problems without waiting days/weeks at a time to rediscuss.

What do I want? I want to work on communication. I want her to listen to me, show empathy and understanding to my situation, show true remorse and stop pulling away. I want to stop rug sweeping and bring issues up when they occur. I'm willing to put in the work for us and practice patience. These are issues we identified in couples counseling and they are hard habits to break for both of us.

[This message edited by Newguy2 at 5:38 PM, August 8th (Saturday)]

But I know too many bh on this board who tell us all the horrible ways they feel but they openly admit they do not tell their ws.

This would have happened to my husband and I had I not joined this community and learned what I should be asking. I have had to pull so much from him that never would have come out any other way.

I agree that R requires honesty and communicating. I’m not sure if the OP was able to do that earlier or not (and admit I’ve not read his prior posts)

I’m not “in R” and don’t see my WH as ‘R material’, so maybe I don’t know a thing about it, but want to offer a different lens.

I can say that one of the factors for that status is bc my WH is not able to follow this advice

Now I do feel it should be the ws’s responsibility to bring it up and to better their communication skills.

I’m not sure what you meant by ‘passive aggressive’ - the BS not speaking up or the poor communication dynamic. Like many BS, the 1st several months had a lot of tears, angry outbursts, triggers, etc. and there were some relatively ‘good’ times (we were told to go have fun and make new memories - whole other post on that advice). And by the start of year 2, I was able (not all the time- not by a long shot) to have relatively calm discussions about the As.

The problem is WH never brought it up. Never validated. Never showed empathy, etc. by that point, he’d had a year of seeing the damage in some very stark terms. He’d attempted suicide. Been to IC and several weeks of intensive outpatient therapy. Not ONCE in 2.5 yrs has he asked me about what it’s like on my side of the street. Not once has he tried to “pull” anything out of me. Eventually, we give up. Maybe bc I’ve told him that I no longer feel comfortable being emotionally vulnerable with him given his reaction (usually - but not always- shame) and I need to see progress on his side of the street. So, I don’t see it as passive aggressive. I see it as preserving my sanity and hurt

Maybe I justify it bc I’ve not committed to R. I dunno. But something about the post didn’t sit well... maybe I’m thinking it didn’t hold space for the plethora of BS with WS who haven’t done enough of the work to rebuild trust sufficient to allow a BS to become vulnerable.

And after reading the OP’s reply - the WS saying the BS hasn’t shown sufficient empathy to her, despite a 4-yr LTA AND asking him when he’s gonna get over her A bc they have a contraception issue (which sounds triggery AF to me... and I’m super glad i didn’t have to contend with that on top of everything else) .... and then stopped the discussion and walks away? Can you blame the BS for not feeling inclined to share himself or his feelings if that’s the response he gets? His WW is the same three years’ out as the OP- and what OP has described would not be at all OK with me.

Not saying communication isn’t something to work on - OP sees that too.

Just not sure it’s passive aggressive as much as self protection. And sure, if that’s the dynamic, then maybe the BS needs to pull the plug and file for D. Yet it can take time for some BS, whether the reasons are emotional (not ready to give up, can’t see/accept the WS’ status as not R material is likely permanent, CoD, etc) or practical (kids, finances, etc), neither of which are easier amidst Covid.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 12:43 AM, August 9th, 2020 (Sunday)]

telling me that I'm not showing empathy to her side of the situation. That statement really frustrated me so I started expressing how she hasn't shown empathy for my side and everything I've gone through. My wife choosing to have an affair, but not by chance, she purposely sought it out. Then continued to have this LTA off and on for 4 years until I discovered it. Anyway, my wife didn't respond well. She got visibly upset, stood up and walked away stating "I can't talk about this".

At this point I don't know how she feels. I don't know if she is angry with me or feels shame for what she has done. I think it's more the latter. And I can be patient and we can hopefully rediscuss our situation without things escalating. I'd like to find a way to find resolution to our problems without waiting days/weeks at a time to rediscuss.

What do I want? I want to work on communication. I want her to listen to me, show empathy and understanding to my situation, show true remorse and stop pulling away. I want to stop rug sweeping and bring issues up when they occur. I'm willing to put in the work for us and practice patience.

I know you're "venting" about the Vasectomy but I think that's secondary to main issue at hand here, based on what you have described you're not in R (at least not in a successful one), your WW even after 3 years (less than her 4 year LTA) doesn't seem to have it in her to do the heavy lifting to restore the M she destroyed, it seems you're dragging her kicking and screaming to do the all the necessary work to help you heal and to address her wayward thinking. It takes two to R, you can't do it by yourself, you can "want it" all you want but unless and until she shows real meaningful and genuine effort and of course true remorse, you won't be able to successfully R. You seem to still be walking on eggshells around her, instead you should be acting from a position of strength. So far the main things I've read are:

1)No empathy

5)She may be "angry" with you.

And this just from your short post, you want to have better communication without it "escalating", she "can't talk about this", it's been 3 years since you gave her the gift of R and she's still wayward and not a good candidate for R by a very long shot, I really think that instead of talking with your doctor about a vasectomy you should be talking to a D lawyer.

Over 70% of communication is non verbal. Your wife is communicating very well. It is just want what she is communicating.

You need to tell her this:

I want her to listen to me, show empathy and understanding to my situation, show true remorse and stop pulling away. I want to stop rug sweeping and bring issues up when they occur. I'm willing to put in the work for us and practice patience. These are issues we identified in couples counseling and they are hard habits to break for both of us.

Non-compliance means you are not in R. And, she is not R material.

I am glad that you clarified that the talking about the vasectomy and the other stuff was separate. I got that sense from you. I think it's normal that she would be confused as to how the two things relate, and it would then seem like an arbitrary decision that could easily be perceived as punishment.

I think you should also tell her you trigger when she stays up and is outside of your room. This was a trigger for my husband. So, if I can't sleep, I put my headphones in and watch a show on my phone next with him next to me. So, if he wakes up he can see what it is I am doing. He didn't ask me to do that, that's the solution that I provided when he told me how it would be triggering. I don't mind it, I like that we go to bed at the same time. But, she may need to provide you with a different solution. Maybe she leaves her phone on the nightstand when she goes to watch TV? I would just tell her and see if she tries to help you with those feelings that SHE created.

Honestly, just put it all out there, as I mentioned before her level of commitment is what it is, better to just find out what it is now before you waste any more time on her.

Maybe I justify it bc I’ve not committed to R. I dunno. But something about the post didn’t sit well... maybe I’m thinking it didn’t hold space for the plethora of BS with WS who haven’t done enough of the work to rebuild trust sufficient to allow a BS to become vulnerable.

You might be right about that GMC. But, what I was talking about came from him saying in his initial post that he keeps his mouth shut to keep the peace. If the BS is rugsweeping along with the WS, they are complicit to the problems that still exist in the marriage. The WS is walking around thinking things are fine, they don't even know they are rugsweeping?

I can understand that a BS might be 3 years in and nothing productive has happened because their spouse sucks. I also understand not everyone can divorce based on their circumstances. So, I just see it as there are really only a few rational answers: Find a way to detach and be at peace in the situation, find a way to overcome the obstacles and divorce, or just accept the situation in the unresolved state and rugsweep. ALL of those solutions SUCK, especially the last one.

But, if you are a BS who is just sitting there waiting for things to change and not speaking your mind but then having flare ups because of it - then yes, that is passive agressive. It might be understandable WHY the BS is behaving that way, but it still is having hidden expectations and expecting mind reading and then holding it against the other person when they don't pick up on it. I would really suggest that if a BS is waiting for the WS to change and they show no progress on that, there is no way you will ever be at peace while remaining in that marriage.

To me, choosing R means that you do feel your spouse is a good candidate for R (I don't know this man to know that he has a wife that is a good candidate for R - it ain't looking too good with some of the things he is saying) AND that you will align yourself with actions of R - which includes speaking your mind, and expecting the WS meet your requirements, and continue to work on themselves.

To the OP - you need to tell her about how you having to bring it up makes you feel like a burden to her. That you need her to bring it up and check in on you. You need to state all your needs. If she wants you she will not only comply with those, she will add on to it and come up with solutions you would never think of. R is really hard, it means the WS will struggle and figure it out and take accountability for why they are doing those things. It doesn't sound like your wife is really anywhere close to getting it. You can't make her get it, but you can at least communicate from your side of what is going on. It's like writing up an employee over and over in some ways, but if they don't comply and become introspective over their behavior you have to fire them. Same thing here.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:01 PM, August 10th (Monday)]

Poppy...

You posted this in 2018.

Now post divorce, still healing and trying to improve myself as a person, I’m in a place where I feel that if I’m going to have a tattoo it should be something I feel positive about rather than a Scarlet Letter that I’m dragging into my new life with me.

And now I read this...

This line of thinking is bull shit. OP is fucking his wife enough that pregnancy is a concern, in that way at least they are functioning as a couple. His wife is not under any obligation to have a foreign object forcibly inserted into her body or to subject herself to hormones so that he doesn’t have to take any responsibility whatsoever beyond saving his sperm for hypothetical second wife. If he doesn’t want to knock her up, he needs to invest in Trojans.

First - it is obvious that you are failing really hard at that whole "...trying to improve myself as a person..." thing aren't you?

Or OP could do what your EX did and dump his cheater. Get over yourself.

NeverTwice: I’m doing awesome thanks for asking!

I communicate my needs and wishes very clearly, as does my partner. I do not engage in passive aggressive behavior, or conflict avoidant behavior. I have healthy, safe boundaries . I only engage in sexual acts with a partner I love that I’ve had honest conversations with about the birth control method we BOTH agree on.

So yup, my statement stands. Two adults are having sex. That means both parties should be coming to the table to discuss birth control honestly and openly, and NEITHER party should be expecting their partner to take all the responsibility of altering their body through medication, surgery or devices, while they get to sit back without at least fully participating in conversation.

My comment stands.

That means both parties should be coming to the table to discuss birth control honestly and openly, and NEITHER party should be expecting their partner to take all the responsibility of altering their body through medication, surgery or devices

Had that been all you said and how you said it? I would not have much of an issue with it.

But, somehow, on a support forum no less, think your condescending, arrogant message was perceived as advice to OP?

Do I need to remind you of that comment?

This line of thinking is bull shit. OP is fucking his wife enough that pregnancy is a concern, in that way at least they are functioning as a couple. His wife is not under any obligation to have a foreign object forcibly inserted into her body or to subject herself to hormones so that he doesn’t have to take any responsibility whatsoever beyond saving his sperm for hypothetical second wife.

What is BS is you.

Nevertwice.... really? This forum to my knowledge isn't about beating someone down. Hard love. Gentle love. Advice in general through our perceived lessons in life up to that point. It leaves room for interpretation and changes. Granted I dont know about this poppies backstory but the extent of research into your attempted beat down of her is off-putting to say the least. The OP wants advice and opinions conducive to his post. Not tangents.

NeverTwice- I really don’t care if you take issue with my post. Sexual partners should be honest with eachother and women should not be obligated to potentially damage their bodies so men can get their rocks off without any worries.

I reread the post that you cherry picked. Funny the bit about how I bent over backwards trying to R with my abuser who groomed me as a teenager was left out of your quote....

Communication is a hard beast. Before I get back to that, I don’t believe that you aren’t in R. I don’t believe R is always WS being empathetic and remorseful. I think it’s mostly that, but even remorseful people have trouble responding empathetically sometimes. We are all human. In other words reconciliation isn’t a direct path to two rocking chairs on the front porch. It’s a path full of detours and side roads. That’s ok. That keeps us on our toes and working hard for each other.

Back to communication- my biggest suggestion is that you have a talk about the talk. I find the biggest struggle in a marriage is that people talk at each other instead of to each other. So start by saying you want your future discussions to not end the way the last one did. State that you don’t want to dive into that conversation but you want to talk about how you can both discuss things without it ending the way it did. Then ask - and listen- to her thoughts. Basically you are both taking time to listen to each other’s feelings and thoughts. A lot of our conversations go like this “I’m not sure how you feel about X, but I believe Y. What do you think?” We spend more time understanding each person’s perspective. And sometimes, even though we communicate really well together, I have to remind him that I don’t want a solution or an apology or a “I wish it never happened”, I just want him to hear me and empathize with me. Good luck

I like that perspective. I find it’s true. My husband could relay a fight to you guys and I might sound terrible because there is only so much context given. But I do think I work hard at our relationship and on myself and so does he. At some points you are just simply having a marriage. The ws can not be a stepford wife or husband because that is inauthentic which is what we are working on removing ourselves from.

That was your quote poppy. Not mine. And I do not quote people's taglines.

Amilliondreams,

The OP wants advice and opinions conducive to his post. Not tangents.

Maybe explain to me, exactly, just how this was good advice for the OP from Poppy.

This line of thinking is bull shit. OP is fucking his wife enough that pregnancy is a concern, in that way at least they are functioning as a couple. His wife is not under any obligation to have a foreign object forcibly inserted into her body or to subject herself to hormones so that he doesn’t have to take any responsibility whatsoever beyond saving his sperm for hypothetical second wife.

No that was just super helpful wasn't it? Really helped OP with his decision!!!

THAT is what I am calling out. So please - read what I am responding to. I did not just pick poppy out of a crowd to call out for no reason.