SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I have read about post affair sex after D day for over twenty

years.

1. It is wrong to withhold sex as punishment.

2. Not everyone has HB, hysterical bonding.

3. Some WS after D day do not want sex because of them

being caught and D day exposure left them with many issues

in their head killing their sex drive.

4. Some BS after D day can also be left with mental issues

that kills their sex drive.

5. So to expect sex after D day is unrealistic. Still normal for

a BS or WS to want sex as it is normal to not want sex, and

the same for HB.

6. Trust does not come back right away, yet some WS are

impatient to have the broken trust repaired. The way a WS

is taught that it takes time for trust to come back the WS

has to be taught that it can take time for the sex to come back.

That no sex now does not have to mean no sex forever.

Sex is a need, we have relationships to have sex. So why

should the BS be surprised that their WS wants sex, they are

attempting recovery. So WS how dare you want sex after

D day is not the best response. Open communication after

D day about why sex is not possible for now is the better

approach.

Great communication is not just the burden of the WS to

provide a PG and X rated timelines, not trickle truth, answer

all questions, volunteer to take a polygraph.

There are many times that the BS is going to have to do more

talking than asking questions about the affair.

Instead of whining and claiming they 'can't' heal their BS. While going back to enjoying their lives sleeping peacefully with a faithful spouse.

Wow, this one took the color out of my face because you put words to why the commonly repeated phrase "BS heals BS, WS heals WS" gets so deep under my skin.

Yes, on the face of it, I suppose I can't argue with the core of the statement. But I think a lot of WS's would read that as "You ain't got to do nothing you don't want to" which, wow, is the wrong message. Or, as you said, use it at a deflection to the work, "Sorry RIO, can't heal you, only you can do that, so f**k off".

No, a WS can't heal a BS alone. But, they can change the probabilities hugely! I was reading a thread before this one about a W who kept mementos from the AP, well, let's agree that reduces the chances of him healing dramatically!

Put another way, if you have a "model" WS who really works to help you heal, I think that most people will succeed in R. If you have an un-repentant spouse, I think that very few people will be able to succeed. No, they can't "force you to heal", but they can change the odds a ton.

Ever plant grass seed? You can walk out on your lawn, take two handfuls of seed, throw it, and then come back in 4 weeks and you'll have a few blades of grass. Or you can "do the work", aerate, top dress, dethatch, slice seed, water 4X a day and then in 4 weeks, you'll have a putting green. Yes, SOME (a very, very small amount) grass seed will be hardy enough and lucky enough to land in the right place when you chuck it out there and do nothing else. But you're results will be so much better if you do the work, and you'll wind up with a million successful blades of grass instead of 10.

The "BS heals BS", I picture in my analogy as "Well, good luck grass seed" before I chuck it randomly with no prep and walk back inside to watch Real Housewives. Sure, I can do that, but I shouldn't be surprised when my lawn still looks like crap or, put another way, only 10 blades of new grass come up. Yes, the seed itself determines if it's going to sprout and grow or not, but I can VASTLY change the odds of it doing that by providing what it needs when it needs it. No amount of love to the grass will make a bad seed grow, but, assuming the seed is good (someone who wants to R) you can either have a 90% growth rate or a .1% growth rate. And that IS up to the WS and the actions they take!

If you have an un-repentant spouse, I think that very few people will be able to succeed.

If you stay M, then yes. But why would you stay M to an unrepentant WS and even expect to heal? Unrealistic expectations, but they are common.

RIO, you cannot control the outcome. No BS can control the outcome (aka 'attitude of their WS'). If you choose to stay anyway, then you will struggle mightily to heal from ongoing disrespect.

Sorry for the t/j, but most threads around here seem to have a hidden agenda that I would label, "How to find happiness with an unremorseful WS?" Um, you can't. Acceptance is key here. I know it's frustrating and unfair, but that doesn't change the truth of it.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 8:33 AM, November 21st (Saturday)]

If you stay M, then yes. But why would you stay M to an unrepentant WS and even expect to heal? Unrealistic expectations, but they are common.

I agree, but I still think we should be more clear; yes, BS heals BS WITH help from the WS. Not setup the WS to just focus on themselves, they've done PLENTY of that during the A, it's time to work on helping the BS get over what you did.

My W's original IC took this point of view, "we can't focus on the marriage until we get your healthy". First off, she was plenty "healthy" she was just making poor/impulsive decisions. That's not an illness, in fact, we have a word for it, it's called "being an asshole". And maybe you really DO need to "learn" how not to be an asshole, but, come on, I think most of us know pretty well what that entails.

Thing is, she could go on a 6 month yoga retreat after her A ended and come back a model wife, wouldn't matter, because the M would be over. Maybe I'm just a sh**ty BS who expects too much, but, no, you've spent plenty of time "healing" and "finding yourself" in the arms of another man. It's time to focus on me the way you did on him. Heal on your own time, which you should have a LOT of now that you're not leading a double life.

I think the thing that leads us to this is that we don't quantify the "damage" from an A. I think we'd all agree, if your a doctor, and your hurt, you need to fix yourself before you can be of help to others, right? But what if the doctor's "injury" is a splinter and the person they can help has an open gunshot wound? That's why I take issue with it, yes, I get it, a WS can have self-inflicted damage from an A, but it's just not, IMHO, relevant when you've got someone bleeding out in front of you. Start the triage, first the BS, then the marriage, then your personal (self-inflicted) "hurt" from the A. In quotes, because while I do think that some WS hurt from an A, I don't think that's at all universal, they hurt from the FALLOUT of the A, not from enjoying the extra sex/kibbles/etc. And even if they are "hurting" it's self-inflicted and needs to move down on the priority list. A doctor who drank too much and has a headache today does not take priority over that same doctor saving my life; morally, ethically or in practice. We all recognize that as self-inflicted and at best, feel some level of empathy for them, at worst, suggest they "grow up" and stop doing stupid s**t to hurt themselves. But never do we suggest, "You poor thing, your head hurts, I'll just let this guy bleed out until you're "better" and ready to help".

I believe I was the first SIer in the last 10 years to write, 'BS heals BS, WS heals WS, together they heal/build/rebuild the M.'

Usually I add something to the effect that 'BS & WS can support each other during the healing,' but that's to warm up the coldness of the concept. In any case, the concept is, IMO, cold. And it has to be - emotion may be the driver of all decisions, but when faced with the D/R decision, it's best, IMO, to maximize one's recognition of cold, hard reality and minimize the effect of one's emotions.

Some BSes, especially new ones (that's my impression), don't perceive the power that gives them. BSes are usually powerless to do much about the A while it's hidden, but saying 'BS heals BS' says one can heal with or without the WS's help or presence.

But I think a lot of WS's would read that as "You ain't got to do nothing you don't want to" which, wow, is the wrong message.

I hadn't realized this was one of the readings of 'WS heals WS,' but I'm OK with it.

If that's how my WS reads it, and/or if that's how my WS acts, I want to know ASAP so I can dump her and move on ASAP.

One of the best things a BS can do is give up trying to control the outcome. IMO, R should not be a BS's goal unless the WS is fully committed to R, no matter how much a BS may want R.

The best goal for a BS is to heal. If the both BS and WS are willing to do the work necessary for R, R is possible, but - again - if my WS isn't on board, I want to know that as quickly as possible.

*****

A BS who thinks the WS is even partly responsible for the BS's healing has, perhaps unconsciously, tied themself to their WS, and the BS has - again, perhpas unconsciously - defined 'healing' as R, even though the BS knows the WS is unreliable.

Doing so is a natural mistake, but it's a mistake nonetheless.

The more mindful the BS is, the better recovery will proceed.

I often write that R requires WSes to take responsibility for themselves. That goes for BSes, too.

*****

ETA: I usually do not write explicitly that the work a BS needs to do is difficult and painful.

The work IS difficult. It IS full of pain. But I have no doubt that doing the work is worthwhile.

[This message edited by sisoon at 11:49 AM, November 21st (Saturday)]

I think there is a cycle to the fix yourself/fix the marriage/help your BS dilemma. The WS has to pull their head out of their ass long enough to be halfway decent to the BS. They have to do some things to help the BS heal, or at least not make things worse. But then they have to do some work on themselves to be less of a selfish asshole, so to be a better partner, which will help the marriage and help the BS heal. Once the BS has a little healing behind them, they can start giving a little bit to the marriage (although sometimes a very little bit). Then the WS can help the BS more, while the BS is helping themself, then the WS has to do a little more ......and so on.

None of it happens in a vacuum. A person who could be a WS is not a person who is automatically going to be able to help the BS. That requires empathy, generosity, courage, and a bunch of traits the WS probably does not currently have, or they probably would not be a WS in the first place.

Funny to come to this after reading a comment from another thread that basically says BS heals BS, BUT (or AND) the WS "job" is to not make shit worse.

To me, the WS who keeps their head up their arse or doesn't do the work is not only NOT "helping" (or supporting) their BS' healing, but is actually making it worse.

Taken with RIO's grass analogy, we are talking about not only just leaving the grass seeds out there to grown on their own (bc the WS' head is so far up their arse they can't do a fucking thing to help), but there are also WS whose "issues" actually serve to make it worse for the BS.

So - we tell BS things like "why do you allow yourself......."

And, like many many many BS, I don't have much choice. At this juncture, not so much from an emotional standpoint, but from the practical ones (and I think most would agree that Covid has put a pretty huge monkey wrench in a TON of BS' lining of ducks).

IMO, R should not be a BS's goal unless the WS is fully committed to R, no matter how much a BS may want R.

I agree with this... and I can say that it can take some time for a BS to come to terms with all of it - the A itself, followed by unwillingness/inability for the WS to own their shit and work to fix it, and then the acceptance that not only is the "old M" dead (from the A), but any hope for a new M is dead as well, followed by acceptance that D is probably the only way to get to a place of fully healing, and then all the pain (and all too often ADDITIONAL damage) from the D process itself.

Oldtruck

I too have read a lot about post affair sex after d day but even if I read it for one day, I would still have been able to grasp the common theme that is,

BS have to sacrifice their wellbeing, mental health, sexual health, self esteem and and a multitude of other things that the WS happily takes away. Happily.

That no sex now does not have to mean no sex forever.

Sex is a need, we have relationships to have sex. So why

should the BS be surprised that their WS wants sex, they are

attempting recovery. So WS how dare you want sex after

D day is not the best response. Open communication after

D day about why sex is not possible for now is the better

approach.

1. Sex is a need? Then why are BS and WS alike so insistent on lecturing and accusing traumatised BS' about 'withholding' sex when it's the WS that is withholding safe sex?

Like I SAID, it is not SAFE for the BS to have sex with the WS for a long period of time, if ever, because they JUST found out that they need to have STD tests because their OWN spouse exposed them to STDs.

You're lecturing the wrong people. BS know sex is a need, that's why they had it with their abusive cheater who didn't care about their sexual health.

Then after Dday, how many WS keep cheating? Exactly. MANY if not MOST. Which =MORE exposure.

How does a BS know for sure they're safe? They DON'T. That's NOT SAFE SEX.

Even if they wear condoms, it's still not. So don't tell me sex is a need like I'm the one who thinks it's ok to give someone an std and then they the BS are forced to abstain because it's not safe.

The WH ih withholding safe sex.

Unless you think it's fine for the WS to expect sex after abusing their spouse in this way,

But a BS is supposed to be happy with being obligated to wear condoms with their own spouse to avoid getting something.

The double standard is pathetic.

Secondly

So why

should the BS be surprised that their WS wants sex, they are

attempting recovery. So WS how dare you want sex after

D day is not the best response.

You must be deliberately misconstruing what I said because I didn't say anything about being surprised.

You don't ask why should the WS be surprised that the BS feels unsafe having sex with the WS who didn't mind deceiving them about sex before and AFTER the std tests trickle truthing for months.

You don't ask why should the WS be surprised that the BS would be less or not attracted to the WS because they abused them by endangering sexual health.

You dont ask why should the WS be surprised that the BS doesn't want to be sexual with them because they feel worthless, unattractive, plagued by triggers and mind movies that are worse than a nightmare.

No, you patronisingly suggest that surprise is the correct word to use for what a BS feels.

As USUAL too busy blaming the BS to see that it's the WS fault and that they should be grateful for a second chance. And that just MAYBE you could see ghe sacrifice the BS is making and cut them some slack. And ACKNOWLEDGE that the WS does NOT DESERVE it in the first place. Therefore, the BS does not need a lecture on sex. They should be APPLAUDED for TRYING.

The Ws need a lecture on how important sex is, since they're the ones whk damaged the intimacy in a marriage. A lecture on safe sex. A lecture on marriage, since they're the ones who ruined one. Stop lecturing the BS.

It's not about surprise. It's about the audacity of a WS EXPECTING sex when they don't deserve it, and the BS is CLEARLY not in a position to have it.

It's about the WS(and BS that seem to not understand this when lecturing others) understanding that sex is a

SACRIFICE for the BS. Not just a physical act.

And since the WS can't understand and appreciate that for some time after dday (more coddling of the abuser as usual), (if ever) then WHY

Are YOU so surprised that the BS doesn't feel they need to make thag sacrifice.

That's the problem I think.

People don't yet, even here, understand or acknowledge what a sacrifice it is for a BS to R and a HUGE part of that is sex OBVIOUSLY which I acknowledged and don't need to be reminded of,

so when a BS can't and I mean CAN'T or justifably doesn't want to, people are so ready to lecture like sex is something you can just 'give' like a handshake,

that they forget how difficult, near impossible, it is for a BS to GIVE that to the WS who just ruined their life.

Who is not necessarily even truly remorseful, who does not APPRECIATE or DESERVE that gift.

So no, the BS is not surprised. And if they are why the hell not? Why not be surprised that the WS who swears up and down that they're a good person or the BS that swear WH are good people (who give their spouses chlamydia) EXPECTS sex when they the BS are clearly broken.

How DARE the BS expect more empathy.

The WS can WANT whatever they want. They don't DESERVE it therefore if they're Ring they should not EXPECT it when their BS is not in a position to give it or else they're just ENTITLED.

They don't get to claim that sex is part of marriage. You don't get to lecture people on that either.

You know what else is part of marriage? Safe sex, completely safe, knowing that you don't need std tests or condoms with your spouse for safety.

Not feeling ugly or second best. That's NORMAL and HEALTHY in marriage.

But the WS took that AWAY. So these are special circumstances. As in, don't tell someone who has to use condoms with their spouse of years and years what's a NEED. Safe sex is a need but I don't see any lectures on that to WS from you or others.

They're the ones punishing by withholding it. Stop blaming BS because they didn't feel like having sex with an abuser whenever the abuser wanted.

And the WS certainly don't have the best responses after dday including wanting sex when they're BS doesn't even eat properly among other things

That's not exactly the best response but yet here you are telling the BS that their entitled feeling of wanting basic empathy from their spouse who just devastated them isn't the best response.

The better approach is a WS using their brain to see their BS isn't in a position to have sex and that they should obviously wait until they are, is the better approach.

Open communication, HA! with a proven liar. Yeah perfect. Tell the honest person that they need to have open communication with a lying selfish cheater about sex.

Great communication is not just the burden of the WS to

provide a PG and X rated timelines, not trickle truth, answer

all questions, volunteer to take a polygraph.

There are many times that the BS is going to have to do more

talking than asking questions about the affair.

Well you're wrong there because firstly you call basic honesty a burden for a WS. That's not a burden. You're coddling the WS.

You're also wrong because you say the BS has to do more talking than asking questions as if the BS doesn't have tk do

Pretty much EVERYTHING. That's the burden. A REAL burden.

Including be responsible for communication with a lying cheat. And sex where they have to out aside their trauma to service said lying cheat despite the risk of stds,

because random users of SI decided that because they've read books they get to tell depressed BS that in their ABNORMAL marriage where std test are required,

NORMS about sex in marriage are required and that that supercedes sexual health and self esteem of the BS.

Tell me ALL about how sex is a need in marrriage in a NORMAL marriage. That's so important, love it. (And people DON'T hve relationships to have sex, that isn't necessary anymore and it's ridiculous to suggest so when in this day and age they can have sex without relationships). I'm even happy to hear lectures about how in a FAITHFUL marriage, partners should be more generous with sex.

But don't tell me it's a need to have sex with such a despicable individual that doesn't deserve it and doesn't see what the it take for the BS to do it.

They don't deserve it so they shouldn't expect it. It doesn't if they want it. They still want sex with multiple partners but that's not exactly the best response is it?

And the BS wants safe sex with their always faithful spouse but they can't? So too bad, WS should WAIT for sex as happily and as without COMPLAINT as they asked and let their BS have unsafe sex with them during their cheating. They could manage that, so now they can manage waiting.

Simple. This isn't a NORMAL marriage so your rules DON'T apply. So no, the abusive cheater does not get to play the VICTIM because they CAUSED the lack of sex. It's their fault.

The BS is one being punished so no they don't have to have sex unless they want it.

If anyone wants to suggest that the BS needs to provide sex for the WS who doesn't even appreciate or deserve it, don't bother.

Just pretend this is the kind of post where the BS deserves as much empathy as WS do in their forum. You know where they don't even acknowledge that they gave their spouse an std but no ones allowed to even challenge that. There's no stop sign here so unfortunately BS have to put up with BS and WS lecturing them about having sex with the abuser who's ACTUALLY the one with holding.

Funny how the word 'punishing' is only attributed to a BS too traumatised and depressed to have sex but never to the WS who

Punishes their BS with mind movies and feelings of worthlessness, in addition to you know, pain forever.

O mention of the WS punishing their BS by withholding safe sex in your post.

Proves my point.

OBL...

*****STANDING OVATION*****

You're lecturing the wrong people. BS know sex is a need, that's why they had it with their abusive cheater who didn't care about their sexual health.

Then after Dday, how many WS keep cheating? Exactly. MANY if not MOST. Which =MORE exposure.

How does a BS know for sure they're safe? They DON'T. That's NOT SAFE SEX.

Even if they wear condoms, it's still not. So don't tell me sex is a need like I'm the one who thinks it's ok to give someone an std and then they the BS are forced to abstain because it's not safe.

The WH ih withholding safe sex.

Unless you think it's fine for the WS to expect sex after abusing their spouse in this way,

But a BS is supposed to be happy with being obligated to wear condoms with their own spouse to avoid getting something.

The double standard is pathetic.

never said that a WS or BS must have sex after D day.

never said that a WS or BS must not practice safe sex.

never said that STD tests are not needed or not to wait before

the results come back.

i said they are obligated to talk and work things out. and to

beat you to the punch working it out does not mean a chat

one evening.

You must be deliberately misconstruing what I said because I didn't say anything about being surprised.

You don't ask why should the WS be surprised that the BS feels unsafe having sex with the WS who didn't mind deceiving them about sex before and AFTER the std tests trickle truthing for months.

You don't ask why should the WS be surprised that the BS would be less or not attracted to the WS because they abused them by endangering sexual health.

You dont ask why should the WS be surprised that the BS doesn't want to be sexual with them because they feel worthless, unattractive, plagued by triggers and mind movies that are worse than a nightmare.

No, you patronisingly suggest that surprise is the correct word to use for what a BS feels.

As USUAL too busy blaming the BS to see that it's the WS fault and that they should be grateful for a second chance. And that just MAYBE you could see ghe sacrifice the BS is making and cut them some slack. And ACKNOWLEDGE that the WS does NOT DESERVE it in the first place. Therefore, the BS does not need a lecture on sex. They should be APPLAUDED for TRYING.

The Ws need a lecture on how important sex is, since they're the ones whk damaged the intimacy in a marriage. A lecture on safe sex. A lecture on marriage, since they're the ones who ruined one. Stop lecturing the BS.

It's not about surprise. It's about the audacity of a WS EXPECTING sex when they don't deserve it, and the BS is CLEARLY not in a position to have it.

It's about the WS(and BS that seem to not understand this when lecturing others) understanding that sex is a

SACRIFICE for the BS. Not just a physical act.

And since the WS can't understand and appreciate that for some time after dday (more coddling of the abuser as usual), (if ever) then WHY

Are YOU so surprised that the BS doesn't feel they need to make thag sacrifice.

That's the problem I think.

People don't yet, even here, understand or acknowledge what a sacrifice it is for a BS to R and a HUGE part of that is sex OBVIOUSLY which I acknowledged and don't need to be reminded of,

so when a BS can't and I mean CAN'T or justifably doesn't want to, people are so ready to lecture like sex is something you can just 'give' like a handshake,

that they forget how difficult, near impossible, it is for a BS to GIVE that to the WS who just ruined their life.

Who is not necessarily even truly remorseful, who does not APPRECIATE or DESERVE that gift.

So no, the BS is not surprised. And if they are why the hell not? Why not be surprised that the WS who swears up and down that they're a good person or the BS that swear WH are good people (who give their spouses chlamydia) EXPECTS sex when they the BS are clearly broken.

How DARE the BS expect more empathy.

The WS can WANT whatever they want. They don't DESERVE it therefore if they're Ring they should not EXPECT it when their BS is not in a position to give it or else they're just ENTITLED.

They don't get to claim that sex is part of marriage. You don't get to lecture people on that either.

You know what else is part of marriage? Safe sex, completely safe, knowing that you don't need std tests or condoms with your spouse for safety.

Not feeling ugly or second best. That's NORMAL and HEALTHY in marriage.

But the WS took that AWAY. So these are special circumstances. As in, don't tell someone who has to use condoms with their spouse of years and years what's a NEED. Safe sex is a need but I don't see any lectures on that to WS from you or others.

They're the ones punishing by withholding it. Stop blaming BS because they didn't feel like having sex with an abuser whenever the abuser wanted.

Ask what?

we are adults here and know the reasons why having sex can

be a problem for both the WS and the BS. there is no reason

to explain the obvious.

I did not say a WS or BS should not have sex or have sex.

I said they need to communicate to work towards

resolving the problem.

requiring the BS and the WS to work honestly towards

recovery or to divorce has nothing to do with entitlement.

lashing is lashing out. I have read many a BS post on the

verbal lashings they gave their WS where they realized that

they went to far yet their WS took it without complaint.

then the same with the WS verbal abuse with them blame shifting their BS.

And the WS certainly don't have the best responses after dday including wanting sex when they're BS doesn't even eat properly among other things

So according to you all the WS and BS that started HB on

D day were wrong.

Sex helps healing. It helps them re-bond.

So your position is shame, shame, a truck load of shame on

all of those people that HB from day one.

fostering anger.

promoting anger.

supporting anger.

this is not how to solve problems.

communication is the way to solve problems.

explaining needs, wants, feelings, reasons, is how problems

get resolved. resolved by accepting divorce or recovery.

and it is normal for the WS and the BS to have conflicting

emotions, wants, needs, desires during this work.

Such as being angry and wanting to call their spouse bad

names while fighting the urge to not do so.

same as to sex being mad at their spouse yet wanting sex.

many a couple were asked in therapy to have sex everyday

for 30 days to help them get use to having sex, build positive

reinforcement, to get them over the hump (pardon the play

on words) sexually.

Never could grasp the concept of HB. Let me see: you betrayed me, exposed me to STD, gaslit me, and now I am supposed to feel comfortable being vulnerable enough for physical intimacy?

Hasn't the WS had more than her fair share of that outside the marriage already?

Hey there, Onebiglie. The topic of "withholding" comes up quite frequently on the virtual pages of SI. Whether it's withholding the truth, affection, sex or whatever else, it's seems to cause quite a stir when one spouse expects or desires something that the other is not willing, or able, to give. More often than not, it seems to me, people tend to judge "withholding" a bit harshly, as if it's inherently wrong. It also implies, I think, a bit of entitlement, as if whatever is being withheld is something owed (for whatever reason).

When is comes to sex in a marriage, too many people seem to think that they're entitled to the other's junk.

If you don't feel like having sex with your WH then don't. Accept that for what it is and don't worry too much about other people's bullshit convictions that you're withholding anything.

...a BS has to literally act like a saint.

I don't know any saints and I'm pretty sure I won't be canonized any time soon. I don't know where you got this nor why you've come to the conclusion that a BS is a held to a higher standard. I certainly hope it's not something widely espoused or believed here on SI.

Betrayed spouses are not saints nor "should" they, or anyone else, expect them to be.

Betrayed spouses are not saints nor "should" they, or anyone else, expect them to be.

Especially their WS.

Fostering anger.

promoting anger.

supporting anger.

this is not how to solve problems.

Edited to remove stuff that wasn’t kind or helpful.

OBL I think that oldtruck was just asking the conflicting rhetorical questions that come along with recovery after infidelity. And sisoon... I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone rage out on him before. He wasn’t belittling your seeking any asking if you were venting. It was a fair question. Someone who is venting is not asking for advice or trying to solve a problem. They’re just getting the feelings out. And that’s absolutely valid.

What’s not valid, in my opinion, is vomiting your rage all over people who are taking the time to reply and offer help. I am truly sorry for the pain you are in and the shitty way you’ve been treated. But maybe take a step back and take a few breaths and realize that people here are not your enemy.

[This message edited by HFSSC at 4:55 PM, November 22nd (Sunday)]